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View Full Version : Xenos Not Capturing Hosts



Youbar
09-22-2019, 07:20 AM
Last time I played Colonial Marines was in the peak of facehugger combat, where slapping a facehugger on a marine's face was the most optimal method of winning a fight. As a byproduct, captures were common enough that Xenos didn't rely on burrowed larvae to buffer their number. Now, the only castes that I know of that are capable of placing a facehugger on a marine are drones, Queens, and carriers, the former two scarcely seen on the frontlines, and the latter one all too rare to make a significant difference in capturing hosts. Taking the host directly to them is further made difficult by the fact only warriors are truly capable of making a successful capture without the aid of other Xenos, with a capture otherwise requiring a full circle ofXenos disarming and a runner devouring in order to pull off.
What, then, is the best method of incentivising captures? It's far easier to kill marines and have them respawn as burrowed than it is to actively capture foes, which is a dangerous crutch for Xenos to rely on. Yelling "capture, don't kill!" does little to change this, so what's a possible gameplay mechanic that could be adjusted or introduced to help alleviate this problem?

Benbot16
09-22-2019, 04:03 PM
Doesn't help when lurkers are always slashing every marine in sight whether or not they are capped

MasterShakeEZ
09-22-2019, 05:04 PM
I dont even bother capturing anymore unless its a lone dude surrounded by xenos. Only reliable way to capture is knock someone down near a carrier.

CABAL
09-22-2019, 05:11 PM
I dont even bother capturing anymore unless its a lone dude surrounded by xenos. Only reliable way to capture is knock someone down near a carrier.

What about warrior, huh? Not reliable?

conthegodoffire
09-22-2019, 05:31 PM
It's a problem but sadly one I am not sure can be fixed. You see this is tied to "getting good" something most players have trouble with.

lurkermain
09-22-2019, 07:53 PM
Just spam tackle and hope the other xenos catch on and stop killing the host.

UnwaveringGrey
09-22-2019, 08:33 PM
My crappy internet dropped the other day when I was on the frontline as a marine. I was SSD for ten minutes, and when I got back I had been slashed to death. That was a freebie capture that was completely ignored. When I play xeno there's usually only a few captures. It seems rare for a hive to have capturing Marines to grow the hive as their primary purpose, which always seems weird to me given that RP wise that is pretty much their entire purpose.

DavidChan
09-23-2019, 03:59 AM
The only ways I see benos making an honest attempt at capturing is I'd there is a tangible benefit to it. With burrowed larva and the spawning pool xenos don't have any incentive to risk it, doesn't matter where a larva came from it's just another larva.

If host spawned larva had buff, they might try to go for more captures. This could be the larva starting closer to evolution so they get into the fray quicker. Or something along the lines of a implanted host that is nested providing some benefit to the hivemind such as counting as a larva for determining how many tier 2/3 castes can be supported. Other wise we'd need some hostborn buff that grants stat boost based on caste similar to how aging works.

lurkermain
09-23-2019, 08:48 AM
Spawning pool exists in like 1% of rounds, it's not important.
Capturing solo is difficult because you have to stand next to them and they can use their meme macro to instakill you if you miss a tackle. If you inflict enough pain to make them pass out they will die.
Capturing as a group is difficult because a group is as smart as it's dumbest member, meaning if 6 xenos surround a marine and 5 spam tackle, the dumbest one can still slash it to death and you get no capture.

Youbar
09-23-2019, 09:53 AM
If host spawned larva had buff, they might try to go for more captures. This could be the larva starting closer to evolution so they get into the fray quicker. Or something along the lines of a implanted host that is nested providing some benefit to the hivemind such as counting as a larva for determining how many tier 2/3 castes can be supported. Other wise we'd need some hostborn buff that grants stat boost based on caste similar to how aging works.

Another idea might be to add an "infant" upgrade stage prior to "young" for burrowed larvae evolving into Tier 1s, sitting at about 50-75 ticks. This would represent the reduced nutrition available for larvae born from monkeys, and allow the game to simulate their growth to a form more capable of matching human-born larvae. It'd also have burrowed larvae serve as a long-term buffer more than a way of quickly plugging holes in the frontline.


Capturing solo is difficult
The greatest difficulty I've seen in capturing somebody seems to be the act of devouring them. If this were reduced somewhat, capturing a marine would become a lot more viable. Otherwise you're left tanking shots from pursuing marines as you drag their buddy off, which is a little difficult when you've just exhausted most of your health securing the capture in the first place.

havokman
09-24-2019, 02:29 PM
There is also the whole problem of how a lot of marines *will* suicide once captured, and it is almost impossible to stop them.

Hell, I think I have burst in a planetside non-dropship hive all of 3 or 4 times ever, and one of those was only because I foolishly chose to try to escape instead of suiciding into the fire left behind by the CAS strike I called in on an ovi'd queen (past tense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ci64d9m0_A&feature=youtu.be&t=52)) via flare. I would imagine it is pretty discouraging to see three quarters of the marines coming in either suicide nading, calling in CAS on themselves, drug ODing, standing in their own flamer fire or buckshotting their head off, and that is when they aren't robustos who go on a rampage around a hive with a magharn shotty and several grenades.

CABAL
09-24-2019, 03:28 PM
There is also the whole problem of how a lot of marines *will* suicide once captured, and it is almost impossible to stop them.

Hell, I think I have burst in a planetside non-dropship hive all of 3 or 4 times ever, and one of those was only because I foolishly chose to try to escape instead of suiciding into the fire left behind by the CAS strike I called in on an ovi'd queen (past tense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ci64d9m0_A&feature=youtu.be&t=52)) via flare. I would imagine it is pretty discouraging to see three quarters of the marines coming in either suicide nading, calling in CAS on themselves, drug ODing, standing in their own flamer fire or buckshotting their head off, and that is when they aren't robustos who go on a rampage around a hive with a magharn shotty and several grenades.

You know who from xenos work on suicide hot line for marines? Warrior.
It is the only single beno other than the Queen who posses stun that is fast and 100% depending on your own skill.
Your problem was solved long ago.

Youbar
09-24-2019, 10:19 PM
Your problem was solved long ago.

Not quite. The time taken to open a resin door in order to reach a host is more than enough for them to kill themselves. Activating a grenade, harm-intent clicking your head with a gun, swallowing a pill, are all one-click or two-click actions. I don't have much of a problem with marines suiciding though, as larvae will continue to grow up to a certain point, and Xenos need to adapt to a better nest layout, otherwise they risk a single grenade destroying chunks of the hive and damaging numerous other hosts at a time.

EquitablePerson
09-24-2019, 10:26 PM
Capturing has been nerfed time and time again with tackle/nero etc. Couple that with no one likes baby sitting- and the marine you might be baby sitting has a magstapped cuckshot shotty or flamer its GG.

The effort it takes to capture isn't worth it unless they are afk.

havokman
09-25-2019, 12:43 AM
Not quite. The time taken to open a resin door in order to reach a host is more than enough for them to kill themselves. Activating a grenade, harm-intent clicking your head with a gun, swallowing a pill, are all one-click or two-click actions. I don't have much of a problem with marines suiciding though, as larvae will continue to grow up to a certain point, and Xenos need to adapt to a better nest layout, otherwise they risk a single grenade destroying chunks of the hive and damaging numerous other hosts at a time.
Yep, this. The last time I was captured, there was a warrior watching over me very intently as I was suspiciously chattering away over comms. All it took was for me to shut up for 20 seconds (ignoring the PO telling me to hurry up and drop that CAS flare), and the warrior went away for a moment to check the several other nested marines.

Resist macro -> drag click welderpack to hand -> drag click welderpack to self -> x -> click signal flare box -> x, q -> click signal flare box -> click signal flare -> z. GG in about 2 seconds, guaranteed window for a PO to get a gun run on a marine close by the spawn pool that the Xenos had for that round. By the time a runner who reacted slightly quicker than the warrior was in my nest cell, I already had a second signal flare out and tried to push past it so I could throw the flare into the part of the hive where the queen was (I failed, but still).

This isn't even one of the reliable ways of taking your life when nested. In fact, it is one of the slowest and most telegraphed ways of committing suicide in a hive. And yet, I always bring CAS flares on maps that don't have deep underground caves if I don't have another method of committing suicide without my primary, because almost any remotely effective form of suicide is virtually impossible for Xenos to stop unless they have a warrior sitting by your nest from hugging to bursting. Nest cell doors take precious moments to open, and open nests lead to marines yakkity saxxing around the hive and wreaking havok while Xenos get to enjoy the wonders of ss13 melee combat in a server with no diagonal movement.

CABAL
09-25-2019, 05:57 PM
Not quite. The time taken to open a resin door in order to reach a host is more than enough for them to kill themselves. Activating a grenade, harm-intent clicking your head with a gun, swallowing a pill, are all one-click or two-click actions. I don't have much of a problem with marines suiciding though, as larvae will continue to grow up to a certain point, and Xenos need to adapt to a better nest layout, otherwise they risk a single grenade destroying chunks of the hive and damaging numerous other hosts at a time.

Ask drones to make nests without doors. Problem solved.

Allakai
09-25-2019, 07:46 PM
Ask drones to make nests without doors. Problem solved.

Big brain plays obviously. Doors are for chumps.

SirMandrake
09-25-2019, 08:48 PM
Big brain plays obviously. Doors are for chumps.

It's hilarious how poorly xenos use doors. Giving other xenos the ability to one click destroy them was the 2019 xeno buff of the year

Pigeon
09-26-2019, 02:13 AM
Warriors typically act like an other lurker or are capturing. Having a good capturer on hive watch isnt useful but otherwise it is impossible to prevent suicides and such. Dont get me started on pyros, SGs, and medics who can burn your ass in 5 seconds, have mag SG of death, or will suicide on QC in 5 seconds.

The pain nerf which made pain basically a meme(to get pain critted you must be already dying) means capping is basically pointless. If the nests were perma secure till someone gets you out there might be more interest towards capping.

Biggest issue is only one caste can capture reliably, warrior. How many warrior players you see and how many are robust? How many are just fighting on the front lines doing nothing?

MasterShakeEZ
09-26-2019, 07:09 AM
none of this matters with new spawning pool where everyone can keep coming back. the only reason you capture is to increase the total number of xenos not replace xenos lost. However I like the idea of killing not capturing so that marine players have to sit in dead chat and do nothing instead of getting them larva to join in the game as.

Cakey
09-26-2019, 08:03 AM
none of this matters with new spawning pool where everyone can keep coming back. the only reason you capture is to increase the total number of xenos not replace xenos lost. However I like the idea of killing not capturing so that marine players have to sit in dead chat and do nothing instead of getting them larva to join in the game as.

This is not the case anymore.
As of the last test xenomorphs are required to feed the spawn pool with chestbursted corpses in order to give the pool a buffer to respawn larvae with. This stops both infinite respawns and infinite evolution pods, as well as incentivises captures even more.

Corocan
09-26-2019, 08:29 AM
What, then, is the best method of incentivizing captures?
The incentive is if you don't do it, your team will probably end up losing.

MasterShakeEZ
09-26-2019, 08:31 AM
This is not the case anymore.
As of the last test xenomorphs are required to feed the spawn pool with chestbursted corpses in order to give the pool a buffer to respawn larvae with. This stops both infinite respawns and infinite evolution pods, as well as incentivises captures even more.

So its just a more annoying version of multibursting larva?

Cakey
09-26-2019, 09:07 AM
So its just a more annoying version of multibursting larva?

Multibursting is random and does not use an existing pool of dead xenomorphs to pick from, while spawn pools are a consistent way for xenomorphs to have backups with, while being restricted to existing hive deaths. I don't know why you'd think they're the same.

MasterShakeEZ
09-26-2019, 09:15 AM
Multibursting is random and does not use an existing pool of dead xenomorphs to pick from, while spawn pools are a consistent way for xenomorphs to have backups with, while being restricted to existing hive deaths. I don't know why you'd think they're the same.

multiburst gives you extra larva. spawning pool gives you extra larva. Ok heres the difference, which I said was the more annoying part, you have to A: drag the corpse over there instead of just getting it. B: you are limited to xenos who died getting to use the larva.

Its literally the same thing except it has a few restrictions that make it more annoying. It doesn't give you more reliable backups it just makes the backups only be able to be used by certain players. Its literally the same thing as multi burst larva except inferior because it has a couple of restrictions to it. Multiburst also lets you use the larva at any time instead of waiting for a xeno to die.

MasterShakeEZ
09-26-2019, 09:24 AM
I thought spawning pool was rewarding shitty players for playing shitty by letting them come back but now its literally just a shitty player regenerator lol. It wont help players that don't die cause the shitty players will still burn through all the larva before the good player dies once. Rename it the scrub pool please.

Edit: The more I think about this the more questions I am coming up with. With capturing as useless as it is how much does the spawning pool even matter? Atleast in low pop I would be surprised if we capture 10 people in the entire round. So throwing 10 bodies in there if it doesn't give a bunch of larva isn't gonna make that much of a difference especially when captures take a while to get and xenos lose most of the players early in the match anyways. I don't understand the spawning pool at all. It made sense when it was infinite but now its just like some random crap that just seems tacked on for no reason. Not to mention how many of our captures even burst since yall make suicide easy as fuck and nest guarding impossible (HURR DURR PUT A t2 THATS MADE FOR FIGHTING ON THE FRONT LINES TO GUARD THEM). How many captures marines actually even burst.

Cakey
09-26-2019, 09:44 AM
You're forgetting about roundstart burst-corpses.

MasterShakeEZ
09-26-2019, 09:49 AM
You're forgetting about roundstart burst-corpses.

Ya I didn't think about those so that gives a decent sized buffer at the start still gonna get burned up by shitty players though

NethIafins
09-26-2019, 10:32 AM
Ya I didn't think about those so that gives a decent sized buffer at the start still gonna get burned up by shitty players though

it's hard to balance for Shitty Player case without it feeling too easy

Drone404
09-26-2019, 12:01 PM
It will give xenos a buffer against early unga rushes, but also make any rush that reaches spawning pool more devastating. I need to play to see how this works in game.