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Thread: EconomicAirborn - Rule 11, Rule 4

  1. #1
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    EconomicAirborn - Rule 11, Rule 4

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    Morrowwolf

    Date of Incident
    May 31, 2022

    Your Character Name?
    Rickard 'Lost' Boar

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    EconomicAirborn

    Accused Character Name
    Kenneth Lance

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    1830 CST ish

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Rule 11, Rule 4

    Description of the incident:
    I'd like to present two separate situations here.

    First, Rule 11. I was XO and Kenneth Lance as an MP attempted to arrest me for reasons unknown to me without faxing high command.

    Secondly, Rule 4. This is a stretch but I'm going to argue it either way. What Kenneth Lance does as an MP is grief. He twists marine law to his own desires to try and harass as many people as possible. This round in particular he arrested the CMO for FTFP because there were pills and injectors on the ground in medbay. *Any* reasonable person would look at this and say it's ridiculous. Kenneth Lance as an MP is known by everyone for being an asshole and going as hard as possible to fuck people within what he's allowed to do. It's messed up and shouldn't be allowed.

    I spent this entire round trying to prevent him from fucking people over. Every second he was out of anyone's sight he was trying to start an incident with someone.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    I didn't save any screenshots or logs as I wasn't sure I was going to report but I'm sure a logdive will yield results.

    Tim Moxley and an MP with the last name Norton were both involved with this as well.

    What resolution are you seeking?
    I hope the dude gets MP banned.

  2. #2
    Member FoxyShibata's Avatar
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    My perspective:

    I was SO during this round, and as I woke up, at 12:20, I imedietly see someone being brigged for 'Insubordination and Resisting Arrest', and talk of mutiny over the squad coms.

    Luckily, nothing came of that and the marines launched at 12:23
    Then, around 20 minutes later, the CMO was being arrested for 'Lose Pill bottles'

    After this, the XO left CIC to talk to the MPs, and I was left in CIC solo for around 10~ minutes

    When the XO came back, he ordered Kenneth Lance to serve as CIC guard.
    Over the rest of the round, Kenneth tried to argue that this was breaching ML and he can't follow this order, to which the XO told him to fax the provost if he thinks that's the case.

    He never went to fax, instead, continuing to try and argue and arrest people for minor things, including attempting to arrest me for having an eyepatch.

    Near the end of the round, he finally tries to arrest the XO, and another officer stops him. I had my head deep in a console at the time, so I didn't notice this until flashes and such got used.
    another MP, Goddard Pearshall I think, and the XO stop Kenneth and place him under arrest, shortly afterword, the round ended.
    A lonesome cowboy, a chilled out broski, or an executive intern.


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  3. #3
    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    To clarify I was playing an MP that round, but I wasn't the one that brigged Kenneth. That was Lou, I think. When I got to the brig I decided to check who was marked for arrest, though, and noticed that, I think 4-6 people were marked for arrest by that point and all of them were by Kenneth. The arrests/marked I remembered through the round were:

    1. 3 Marines marked/brigged on major insub because they were messing with chairs in briefing and Kenneth ordered them to stop
    2. One Marine marked/brigged for minor insub for insulting Kenneth
    3. One Marine brigged for assault when they (according to the Marine) accidentally punched Kenneth while trying to clean up briefing

    After I woke up I remember the CMO being brigged for FTFP due to someone (I'm not sure if it was ever established that the CMO specifically did it) leaving autoinjectors and pills laying around medical unsecured. The entire department had an argument over the arrest and looking back it was obvious there was a split in the MP force from that point on. After that I had to go take care of Requisitions and the CMP said a few things over the radio (and later confided to me off comms) that Kenneth and another MP were putting pressure on him and tried to go after him as well, if memory serves. I do know that Kenneth was openly questioning the XO telling him to stay in CIC and the CMP had to outright ask Kenneth if he was "questioning my (the CMP's) superior" so it may be related to that. It was some time after that that someone reported that Kenneth arrested the XO and he announced he was bringing the XO in over MP comms. Lou, the CMP, and I all demanded to know why he was arresting the XO but never got a response, leaving most of us to wonder what he was thinking. I know that most of what he did was, essentially, within the letter of the law, but I will say that several of the arrests didn't really feel like they were made in good faith considering one person was arrested for something someone in their department did, another was arrested for an accidental punch, and a third was arrested for... seemingly no reason whatsoever.
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

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  4. #4
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    Hello. I am the accused.

    First, Rule 11. I was XO and Kenneth Lance as an MP attempted to arrest me for reasons unknown to me without faxing high command.
    Only Commanding Officers have arrest immunity and cannot be arrested without explicit permission of High Command. You were not a Commanding Officer, you were the XO. Commanders do not have arrest immunity and can be arrested without having to fax High Command for permission, although High Command must be notified after the arrest.

    For reference:
    Marine Law special provisions - Mutinies and arresting the Commander https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#..._the_Commander
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Following Arrest Procedure, I do not have to inform you of your charges outside of the brig, only of your arrest status. You were in CIC when the arrest took place.

    For reference:
    Marine Law arrest procedure - Arresting a Suspect https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#Arresting_a_Suspect
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Now for the context:
    You have ordered me to 'stand in CIC' for an indefinite period of time as a reaction to the CMO's arrest to stop me from 'arresting and harassing everyone'. I have initially obeyed the order and reported to CIC where you told me that my new assignment will be to stand in CIC. I have informed you that this is an unlawful order, and as per Marine Law, I am not required to follow unlawful orders. Your order was meant as a punishment that would cause me to neglect my duties as a member of the Military Police. I have attempted to reason with you for atleast fifteen minutes and then you threatened to have me arrested if I ignored your unlawful order.

    You attempted to invoke Spirit of the Law despite this not being an edge case, and despite you as the XO, not being part of the Law Enforcement rank structure. I have explained to you that as a member of the Military Police, my primary duty is to obey and enforce Marine Law, which includes ignoring unlawful orders. What you have done can be interpreted as neglect of duty, prevarication and coercion which falls under aiding, abetting, conspiring. Furthermore, you've accused me of 'harassing everyone on the ship' (which includes officers and as such DASO) without any evidence. False statements are illegal in Marine Law.

    I believed that you gave me an unlawful order with ill intent, and as Military Police, I cannot ignore Major crimes, which is why I arrested you. However Lou Norton directly interfered with the arrest and had me illegally detained without prior authorisation from the CMP or the new Commander which is a serious offence, arrest procedure was violated aswell.

    For reference:
    Marine Law - Lawful Orders https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#Lawful_Orders
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Military Police - Overview https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Military_Police#Overview
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Marine Law - Spirit of the Law https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#Spirit_of_The_Law
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Marine Law - Verbiage https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#Verbiage:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Marine Law - Verbiage https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#Verbiage:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Rule 11 - Marine Law exceptions https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Rules#Rule_11._Marine_Law
    Spoiler Spoiler:



    Secondly, Rule 4. This is a stretch but I'm going to argue it either way. What Kenneth Lance does as an MP is grief. He twists marine law to his own desires to try and harass as many people as possible. This round in particular he arrested the CMO for FTFP because there were pills and injectors on the ground in medbay. *Any* reasonable person would look at this and say it's ridiculous. Kenneth Lance as an MP is known by everyone for being an asshole and going as hard as possible to fuck people within what he's allowed to do. It's messed up and shouldn't be allowed.
    As part of the Equipment Handling Procedure section of SOP, all pills must be contained within properly labeled pill bottles, and syringes, autoinjectors, surgery tools, and other medical devices must be placed within their designated containers. The CMO as the medical department head is responsible for all operations and medical procedures in the medical bay. I have called the CMO and informed them that medical equipment was left unsecured on the floor only for them to say, and I quote- "Don't waste my time with this" and refuse to do anything about it infront of their subordinates. What the CMO did is conduct unbecoming of an officer and can be considered Neglect of Duty, I have however arrested them for FTFP.

    SOP - Equipment Handling Procedure https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Standard_Op...ling_Procedure
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Please let me know if you have any questions or comments, I'll do my best to answer them.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Copper Wilson's Avatar
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    Hi I was the SEA of that round. Overall I heard of most of the thing that went down on MP comms, and such relating to CMO arrest and the XO. My first eye account of this was coming upper medbay ladders was Lance outside the CMO office with the CMO in it. I went south of them and looked on with my binos, and saw the CMO walk out and allow lance to cuff and arrest him there with no non-lethals or lethal force being used by any off them. As the CMO was being taken to the brig he informed his staff on medbay comms he was being arrested, to which had medbay staff asking why and such and had the MP also asking why on MP comms. I followed Lance and the CMO to brig, waited in the brig processing room, staying there a while then leaving a short while latter. 1 thing to note here a few things were being said between the MPs but iirc the MW said something like "But we dont know for certain if the CMO was the one leaving pills and injectors on the floor in medbay." This was in relation to the question of Lance arresting the CMO for FTFP.
    On my way out of the brig, the XO walked into the brig lobby and stoped me. He asked what I thought and knew of the arrest with the CMO, to which I gave him the limited info I had. He then proceeded to ask me iirc if this he(Lance) was acting insane and simply being unreasonable in his arrest of the CMO over such a matter, to which I told him something like what Lance here has already said in this report.
    Quote Originally Posted by Economicairborn View Post
    The CMO as the medical department head is responsible for all operations and medical procedures in the medical bay.
    After this we both walked back into the brig with the XO, only to almost right away to be asked to go help req, as the only CT was drunk and not in req at time marines came to req line for gear and such.
    After this my involvement the rest of MP matters was very limited to non-existent. I only heard about Lance going/attempting to arrest the XO, and that all I have to say. Logs can futher show what happened/was said.
    Last edited by Copper Wilson; 06-01-2022 at 10:56 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #6
    Discord Manager MrDadMan's Avatar
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    Pulling logs for this.
    Major Amber Walsh, Exceptional Leader

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    Za'Kul, Foolish Hunter
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  7. #7
    Discord Manager MrDadMan's Avatar
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    Logs for the incident!
    Now that logs are posted, wait for the final decision to be made!

    Involved:
    MorrowWolf - Rickard 'Lost' Boar (CMO)
    EconomicAirborn - Kenneth Lance (MP)
    Blacklaser555 - Henry Hall (XO)
    Wewai - Paul 'Nerd' Schmidt (CMP)
    Copper Wilson - Ryan Chocollateral Goodman (SEA)
    Some random guy 3124 - Lou 'Leatherback' Norton (MP)

    Kenneth arrests the CMO
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    CMO is processed at Brig
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Interaction at brig during CMO's case
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Kenneth ahelps the accepted appeal, Silencer_pl handles it
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    XO orders Kenneth to stand guard at CIC, Kenneth argues with him
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Kenneth asks the CMP about his assignment from the XO
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Kenneth confronts the XO, arrests him, and another MP stops him
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Kenneth ahelps about his arrest being stopped
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Shortly after, the round ended.
    If I missed anything important you feel should be included, message me on discord @Frog#6006 and I'll see what I can do!
    Major Amber Walsh, Exceptional Leader

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    Za'Kul, Foolish Hunter
    Spoiler Spoiler:

  8. #8
    Mod Manager ScarletReign's Avatar
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    On the matter of the arrest of the CMO, while I can see some the players involved were frustrated and did not agree, but this appears to be within ML and a valid charge/arrest.

    On the matter of the arrest of the XO, from what I can see in the logs, this is not a valid arrest.
    Below, is am except from the log which shows Lance announcing he is placing boar under arrest, presumably on the charge of Prevarication , which is defined as "To intentionally order the arrest of a person on false charges who is then found to be innocent, or to apply an improper or abusive NJP."


    Kenneth Lance: Captain, would you mind to confirm?
    Kenneth Lance: You implied that I was harassing everyone on the ship.
    Rickard 'Lost' Boar: You are and continue to do so.
    Kenneth Lance" I take that as confirmation of you, accusing me of harassing everyone on the ship.
    Rickard 'Lost' Boar: Kenneth
    Rickard 'Lost' Boar: Look at me
    Kenneth Lance: As per Marine Law, Captain, false statements are illegal, and this is considered a false statement.

    Kenneth Lance: Captain, furthermore, you've accused me of harassing members of this ship.
    Kenneth Lance: Which include officers.
    Kenneth Lance: Which equates to DASO.
    Kenneth Lance: And since that is a false statement, I'm placing you under arrest.


    However, in reviewing the conversation, I couldn't find anything that a reasonable person would interpret as Boar Ordering Lance's arrest, or of Boar making accusations of Lance committing DASO. It is clear to me that in the conversation, Boar is attempting to have a conversation to Lance to address what he sees as issues with Lance's conduct. I do not see anything that a reasonable person would conclude is an accusation of a crime or an arrest order.

    It appears that Lance made a couple leaps in logic in an attempt to find cause to evade the lawful order of guarding CIC and to arrest the XO for Prevarication. Both of these fall outside both the spirit and letter of ML.

    MP players in CM have authority and responsibility to not abuse it. Whether this was intentional or not, this was a significant misapplication of CM's ML.
    I am placing a heavy warning. Any further incidents will result in a jobban from MP roles.

    Report is Resolved.

    A couple notes:

    Guarding CIC is a valid assignment, XO makes it clear that Lance is permitted and expected to carry out his duties as MP at the assigned post. There are other MPs on duty, including CMP who did not object to Lance's assignment, so following the order would not mean the rest of the ship would be unpatrolled or unprotected.

    Normally, when a staff member responds to an ahelp this issue is considered handled in game, and player reports aren't accepted, however do the to round ending, it doesn't appear that the responding staff member had opportunity to investigate, and indicated as much.

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