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Thread: Staff Report - MisterMoon

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    Staff Report - MisterMoon

    Staff Report
    Your BYOND Key
    rocket2guns
    Date of Incident
    February 18, 2023
    Your Character Name?
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones
    Their BYOND Key
    MisterMoon
    Approximate time and date of the incident
    18 February 2023 2-3 AM NZDT
    Which of the following are you reporting?
    3. Enforcement Action Taken
    Description of the incident
    Summary

    I feel a very unbalanced view was taken, and the considerations of someone with an unblemished record over a long time and many hours was not even considered. It was assumed I was lying despite their being many witnesses. The admin would not answer my questions until I really pushed it. Even if I was in the wrong, the actions taken during the round in how the admin dealt with it, destroyed what could have been a very memorable experience.

    Not to mention, no care was given from what I would think was a major job violation by the DCC. It appears nothing was done about that. It severely disrupted the round and wasted my time, and the captains. I think this is a cautionary tale of how admin behavior can be extremely negative towards what you are trying to cultivate. And, frankly, I think the admin owes me an apology. Reviewing what I did below, I'm extremely proud of the restraint and caution I took at all points. On the otherside, I'm disappointed I wasn't given the curtosy of a measured investigation outside of the round.

    I know you have a tough job, and I suspect - looking through this subforum - no admin will every be punished and things will just "circle the wagons". But I hope this even, with a lot of detail, outlines the very real damage that can happen. You should be fair when investigating, and not leap to little bits of conclusions you get. Any person deserves this. I gave the person in question, the admin, and everyone benefit of the doubt. Where was mine?

    Background

    I joined at roundstard as the sole Pilot Officer. I announced myself to the Command channel. I had the aircraft (ALAMO) ready to go before deployment. My character had already done several rounds, coming off the back of a very long, complex, intense - but very fun round just before that. In that round, I had been the Pilot Officer providing transport and was given control to make the decision when to leave. I waited as late as I could, and the left. The SL had lost some team members, and shot me on the way back. While initially annoying, I understood that it fit within the character and role-play. The player who shot me was executed, on the spot, by another player and life continued.

    I put a great deal of effort into preparing my role. I gathered cleaning equipment. I loaded LZ camera (hear me out), engine upgrades, and rapelling. I'm not trained enough yet for CAS, so purely focused on transport. Prepared containers. Gathered stasis bags. I spent my extra points getting motion sensors, which I left outside of REQ for people to grab. I was only equipped with a pistol, which I have in a shoulder harness. This character focuses on the job and not combat, so does not wear any armor. Just a helmet.

    After landing the LZ was difficult and complex. There were no Crew chiefs and no other pilot officers. Someone had stolen the Green Trash bin I was using, and someone had strewn stims all across the aircraft - so things had been in disarray as I attempted to clean it up. It took me a bit longer to unload than normal without the bin to collect. I emptied the aircraft and got into the cockpit, and was hugged. I only recall there being one other person was in the aircraft, in the back. I woke up just before landing and radioed medical. I put myself in a stasis bag and they carried me to medical and completed surgery. I lost my helmet during this process, but in the chaos I did not notice. This meant from this point on, I was only in a flight suit, with a standard issue pistol (not revolver), and without a helmet.

    Abbridged log with commentary

    Upon leaving medical I head to the ALAMO. I knew from my own experience of getting hugged, there would likely be others and I needed to get down asap. I grabbed my old stasis bag, even though I had left two down there I needed to have this with me.

    There are a lot of new marines who missed the initial wave. The ALAMO is chaos. The crates I moved in have been shoved out. The stasis bags are not on board, sitting on the edge. I walk into the cockpit and as I do so, I see a crew chief is walking around out back. I'm very relieved. It's been very difficult to manage, especially losing the time with the hugging. I was hoping to prepare the NORMANDY somewhat in case we needed to use it for any rescues. However he walks in and the green intent dance begins to happen. I have placed a chair in the middle, so that I can see the camera and control the aircraft, which you can't do if you are in either side seat. He green dances me out of my spot in the chair and:

    Awion Smit buckles in!
    I don't recognize the name, figure he might be confused, so I say:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Hey buddy"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "In the back mate"
    At this point I figured it was a polite way of getting him to realize "oh, it's the Pilot Officer and I'm the crew chief". However, what happens next takes me completely off guard. I cant see an unbuckling in the log, but he unbuckles and nudges me out of the back into the back of the aircraft. I go back into the door and hold myself there on yellow intent. The next step catches me compeletly by surprise:

    Johnny 'JJ' Jones has grabbed Awion Smit passively!x2
    Awion Smit punched Johnny 'JJ' Jones!
    He grabs me and a push/shove on yellow happens and then punches me. I unbuckle him.

    Awion Smit was unbuckled by Johnny 'JJ' Jones!
    Your chest hurts.
    Awion Smit buckles in!
    This has caught me completely off guard, and I don't have much I can do. So I radio the captain to let him know:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Captain, the CCR is taking control of the aircraft and assaulting me"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "Captain, the CCR is taking control of the aircraft and assaulting me"
    I grab him, unbuckle him, and walk backwards.

    Johnny 'JJ' Jones has grabbed Awion Smit passively!
    Awion Smit unbuckled !
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Stop"
    Having not heard a response from the captain, not having heard anything accept "stop" from anything I've said so far, I imagine the captain is very busy so I radio for the MPs figuring they will be able to easily sort this out.

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "MP to alamo"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "MP to alamo"
    Enough time is passed I am becoming concerned, so I try and get the captains attention. I'm not even sure we have MPs. Note I made sure my language here was neutral. I was not accusing the CCR of doing anything wrong - simply stating a fact. The CCR was taking control. And he had punched me. Two factual statements, with zero editorialization. My intent was to get someone else in to resovle the matter, and clearly, this wasn't going to work.

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Captain, the CCR is taking control of the aircraft and assaulting me"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "Captain, the CCR is taking control of the aircraft and assaulting me"
    Johnny 'JJ' Jones has grabbed Awion Smit passively!
    Awion Smit unbuckled !
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Stop"
    So far the only words at all received have been "stop", twice. I've edited out, but a passenger named Aaron Cross (2ndLt) repeatedly unbuckles and comes over, buckling himself back in when I assume he sees I have called the MPs. I honestly figured that doing this through comms would have been enough to calm things down a bit and figure out the confusion.

    Now a command announcement occurs from the captain:

    Delta squad got their suicide mission alright, most of the squad gone We are losing the beach, drag wounded to hydro
    I realize that the wounded will soon be coming down from hydro and quite possibly hugged. It is in the late early game of the round and I was already hugged.

    (IMPORTANT NOTE: you will see a double up of a lot of discussions, occuring close to an intercom. I turn on the mic, so better situational awareness with the whole craft. This is important, because it shows that SGT Smit would have heard everything - even when he wasn't in the cockpit with me as I talked to the captain.

    Here he says this, the only thing he has said except "stop", he says it in the squad chat but it is relayed to everyone on the ALAMO:
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "Go to alamo"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Almayer (DCC)] says, "Go to alamo"
    I again plead:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Capt Crew chief ihas commadere the aircraft"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Capt Crew chief ihas commadere the aircraft"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "Capt Crew chief ihas commadere the aircraft"
    Enough time has passed, but I didn't see this at the time, but I receive the following reply from a SL:

    PFC Vaughn Goodman [Command (CT)] yells, "I don't think there are any MPs today, sir!"
    2ndLt Aaron Cross says, "Are we leaving soon"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "MY TO ALAMO"
    PFC Vaughn Goodman [Command (CT)] yells, "You'll have to fight for your life!"
    2ndLt Aaron Cross asks, "Or can i grab a bite first?"
    I am in the cockpit looking out but he is blocking the exit. I have no armor, no helmet. I draw my pistol. He disarms me:

    Awion Smit has disarmed Johnny 'JJ' Jones!
    Awion Smit points to the floor
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "MP TO ALAMO HES GOING TO SHOOT"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "MP TO ALAMO HES GOING TO SHOOT"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Almayer (DP)] says, "MP TO ALAMO HES GOING TO SHOOT"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "ANYONE THERE"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "ANYONE THERE"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Almayer (DP)] says, "ANYONE THERE"
    Note quite a bit of time has passed here, I've edited out non-pertant conversation that shows some time has passed. I don't really have any option except to try and get someone to help.

    Sgt Awion Smit asks, "What?"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] asks, "What?"
    Johnny 'JJ' Jones points to Awion Smit
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Crazy"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "Crazy"
    A fellow passenger noticed the diarming and got alarmed as well

    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "What in the fuck."
    I am taken completely by surprise at this as well:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Dude, what the fuck are you doing"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Dude, what the fuck are you doing"
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "I not have gun"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "I not have gun"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "You are the crew chief, you just stole my gun"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "You are the crew chief, you just stole my gun"
    I make another plea:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Need MPs to Alamo"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Need MPs to Alamo"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "Need MPs to Alamo"
    PFC Viktor 'Beer' Kleiner says, "The marines are struggling down there"
    He starts disarming me, I am trapped in the cockpit so I cant run away. I hear the shots, and I believe he has shot me. This is important because later, the admin calls me a liar saying this never happened:

    7+1 / 9 ROUNDS REMAINING
    You accidentally make Johnny 'JJ' Jones's M4A3 service pistol go off during the struggle!2
    Awion Smit attempted to disarm Johnny 'JJ' Jones!
    Your chest hurts.
    6+1 / 9 ROUNDS REMAINING
    Keaton Howard unbuckled !
    Mia Hellin talks into the marine delta corpsman radio headset
    LCpl Mia Hellin [Almayer (Delta HM)] says, "The crewchief and and Pilot officer are neglecting their duty by SCWABBLING."
    He again attempts to disarm me, successfully:

    Awion Smit has disarmed Johnny 'JJ' Jones! x2
    Capt Steve 'Westpoint' Murphy [Command (XO)] says, "I need alamo groundside, how important is it"
    Keaton Howard points to Johnny 'JJ' Jones
    Awion Smit unloads the M4A3 hollowpoint magazine (9mm) from the M4A3 service pistol.x2
    Awion Smit loads the M4A3 hollowpoint magazine (9mm) into the M4A3 service pistol!
    Awion Smit has thrown the M4A3 hollowpoint magazine (9mm).
    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Jeuz christ."
    Awion Smit has thrown the M4A3 service pistol.
    Awion Smit attempted to disarm Johnny 'JJ' Jones!

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Ve been shot"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Ve been shot"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Command (DP)] says, "Ve been shot"
    Witness points out, what I now realize, is I was shot because he was disarming me:

    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Awion you forced him to shoot."
    Shit is really starting to go down on the ALAMO now as people are coming over. The Captain is starting to realize this needs to be solved. I don't know what is going on. Is this some spy event? I'd had that happen a few round ago on with this character, although not this excitingly:

    Capt Steve 'Westpoint' Murphy [Command (XO)] says, "MPs get to Alamo please"
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "And say not true"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "And say not true"
    Yves A.W. Falconet points to Awion Smit
    PFC Vaughn Goodman [Command (CT)] says, "There are zero MPs awake right now."
    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Disarming armed men is DANGEROUS."
    It's clear LCPL Hellin understands what has happened, but I just think I've been shot. I see the red text and I see my chest hurts. I don't have the gun and I never pressed the trigger.

    I won't quote everything as this cuts to the heart of the matter, but now the DCC is in the cockpit. I am outside. He disarms me again. Points to the floor indicating I should step away. And says:

    Awion Smit points to the floor
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Why? say me"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "Why? say me"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "Im the pilot officer mate, what are you doing?"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] asks, "Im the pilot officer mate, what are you doing?"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "Whats your role?"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] asks, "Whats your role?"
    We get an accouncement from the Captain:

    Charlie I need you to FOB, forget comms Alamo is going to hold planetside We have lost a lot of lives, but we can hold

    Sgt Awion Smit says, "I am drop ship cap"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "I am drop ship cap"
    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "What even is this argument."
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "No you arent, thats my job"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "No you arent, thats my job"
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "My."
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] says, "My."
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Give me my gun"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Give me my gun"
    Johnny 'JJ' Jones points to the M4A3 service pistol
    Sgt Awion Smit asks, "Why?"
    Sgt Awion Smit [Alamo (DCC)] asks, "Why?"
    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Fuck."
    At this point I realize I just have to go along with it. The CIC launches the dropship because I can't get there. The DCC doesn't seem to know how to. This means it's taking much longer than usual for us to arrive. When we land he runs out. I don't know what the fuck is going on. I don't know if he going to come at make it take off. I know the captain is saying I must remain planetside. How much higher stakes can it get for a Pilot Officer really?

    I tell the captain, I don't know whats going to happen. So I figure I say I need some support when I land back, although I'd not properly considered I'm going to be planetside until told to leave.

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Captain i need MPs when I land"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Captain i need MPs when I land"
    I dial the CMP to discuss options, or anything. I know the captain is busy. But I also know, he's counting on me keeping this on the ground. I've recovered my pistol.

    Dialing Brig CMP's Office..
    You put the M4A3 service pistol into the shoulder holster.
    Your call to Brig CMP's Office has reached voicemail, you immediately disconnect the line.
    The call is unanswered. I call the CIC. I am going to edit out the duplicates here, and edit a little bit for brevity:

    Dialing Combat Information Center..
    Combat Information Center has picked up.
    Combat Information Center says, "Here"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Im on the ground"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "Want me to hold?"
    Combat Information Center says, "Yeah I copy, hold for now"
    Combat Information Center says, "We are still in seige"

    Note here, I have NOT discussed the incident. I know for sure, the most important thing is that the aircraft is on the ground. That is the captains priority and it is essential to the mission and the lives. I don't know what has happened or why, so I try explain:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Sgt Awion Smit has shot me several times. MPs needed when I get back"
    Combat Information Center says, "Copy, ill make their name"
    Combat Information Center says, "Mark rather"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "He keeps trying to take control of the aircraft. If he tries again, can I shoot him?"
    Combat Information Center says, "Yes"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Understood"
    I want to really stress something here. I did NOT ask for permission to execute him. I simply asked if I could shoot him. I had not shot him at all to this point, and I was asking permission to escalate it. The next sentence comes from the captain unprompted. I am not editing anything, the next statement comes:

    Combat Information Center says, "BE is authorised"
    Combat Information Center has hung up on you.
    Embarrassingly, I don't realize he has hung up, but this gives you a window into my thinking. I see my chest hurts, and worry how badly I have been shot:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Call me when i should leave sir"
    Your chest hurts.
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Ill need medical when back"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Alamo out"
    Also I must stress here, this entire conversation has been broadcast to everyone in the ALAMO, including the DCC. You can see this in the logs, but I edited it out for clarity.

    SGT Smit gets out of his seat, having been weirdly inactive:

    Awion Smit unbuckled !
    He walks towards me, I'm close to the cockpit and he inside as well, near the left door.

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "I will kill you if you go iun the cockpit"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Captains orders"
    Johnny 'JJ' Jones points to Awion Smit
    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Stop pleas"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "Do you understand?"
    Now I'm kind of proud of that bit. This was some of my military training kicking in. I knew he had overhead the conversation. I needed to be clear, specific about exactly what would happen. But draw a line in the sand on it. I was prepared to let it go - but I was not going to let him back into the cockpit.

    Unfortunately he keeps coming towards me. I am not a parcticulary aggressive person. I would think that this next statement is actually very uncharacteristic of me:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones asks, "Do you fucking understand?"
    At this point, he runs towards me and begins to disarm me again:

    Awion Smit attempted to disarm Johnny 'JJ' Jones! x2
    He is unsuccessful, but I realize that I need to get control of the situation as this has escalated and I was told, voluntarily, to perform a BE in order to ensure the vehicle stayed on the LZ. I grab a M41AE2 Heavy Pulse on the ground. Again, army principle is if you shoot someone you should only do so to kill them. I had no idea what he would do once he knew I would actually shoot him. So I made the decision and I still stand by it.

    You put the M4A3 service pistol into the shoulder holster.
    You need a more secure grip to fire this weapon! x4
    You grab M41AE2 heavy pulse rifle with both hands.
    I begin sustained fully automatic fire.

    Sgt Awion Smit screams!

    Ten rounds hit him, spraying him with bullets, before he says:

    Sgt Awion Smit says, "Srop"
    I continue until he falls over:

    Awion Smit seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless...
    Your chest hurts.
    Another ten rounds are fired. I lower the rifle, worrying again how much damage I have and if it will be an issue with the DS:

    You are now carrying M41AE2 heavy pulse rifle with one hand.
    Your chest hurts.
    I begin performing CPR on a body that had been dragged onto the DS. I do that for around 10 seconds, enough to keep them going. One of the passengers runs back onto the DS, and sees me doing CPR on a body:

    LCpl Colten Jenner says, "Perma."
    So I stop. They start on the body of SGT Smit. I stop him. This is because I know how quickly people can get back up. I reached the end point of a long escalation, I had consulted my command. The decision tree was set and I would follow it. So I stopped everyone from administering aid, at least till MPs were around.

    LCpl Colten Jenner says, "Strip em then."
    So I do. I am not feeling good about this. I've been playing SS13 for a decade. I have never been in this situation before. Never. But again, I'd seen spys in rounds. I'd experienced weird behavior from Staff Officers. Could this have been it? But what option did I have other than just not doing my job? If I did nothing, and this guy locked everyone out of the DS - it would ruin the OP and round and everyonne would be asking why I didn't do my job.

    I'm really not in the mood for anyone getting me to go. I just killed a guy to make sure we stay on this LZ. So I preempt with the people coming on board, to not mess with that plan:

    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Captain ordered us to hold here"
    2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Till he says to go"
    A captains announcement comes through:

    Delta has launched an offensive hydro road, all able marines are to assist We need hydro recapped
    As I am standing there taking stock of things, the phone starts ringing in the cockpit, I run back and pick it up:

    Picked up a call from Combat Information Center.
    Combat Information Center says, "Clear to cycle"
    Alamo says, "Alamo"
    Alamo says, "Roger sir cycling"
    I continued. I then got the Bwionks. Eventually, after being called a liar and issued a strong warning. My round was ruined, and I exited. I tried to do it as best as I could and resisted the urge to bring it into the game. Others were enjoying themselves.

    Conversation With Admin

    Please bear in mind I am dealing with an extremely volatile game situation as I am having this conversation, so my sentance structure and events might not be perfect:

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    Why did you kill Awion Smit?
    name="rocket2guns"]Absolutely, yes. On orders of captain. Crew chief shoved me out of cockpit. Took my pistol. Shot me. Got in the way of me doing what the captain asked. Wouldnt talk to me. So I called the Captain. Captain told me to shoot him if he tried again. I told the guy this, and it was all broadcast over the intercom to him as well.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    You have never been shot by the player, you skipped escalation and shot him dead, the XO also has 0 authority to order executions outside of perma brig
    name="rocket2guns"]He emptied my who pistol magazine clip. and i took damage.
    PM to-Admins: talk to LCpl Mia Hellin who witnessed it.
    PM to-Admins: Are you investigating why a crew chief took over an aircraft from the pilot officer? He literally dragged me out, pushed all the stuff out, ignored the captain.
    PM to-Admins: 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Hey buddy" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Hey buddy" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "In the back mate" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "In the back mate" Johnny 'JJ' Jones has grabbed Awion Smit passively! x2 Awion Smit punched Johnny 'JJ' Jones! Awion Smit was unbuckled by Johnny 'JJ' Jones! Your chest hurts. Awion Smit buckles in![/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    logs say otherwise, the only thing they have done is disarm you
    name="rocket2guns"]Are you investigating why a crew chief took over an aircraft from the pilot officer? He literally dragged me out, pushed all the stuff out, ignored the captain.
    PM to-Admins: 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "Hey buddy" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "Hey buddy" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones says, "In the back mate" 2ndLt Johnny 'JJ' Jones [Alamo (DP)] says, "In the back mate" Johnny 'JJ' Jones has grabbed Awion Smit passively! x2 Awion Smit punched Johnny 'JJ' Jones! Awion Smit was unbuckled by Johnny 'JJ' Jones! Your chest hurts. Awion Smit buckles in![/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    From your witness and logs, i see that the DCC never shot at you and you chose to skip escalation to shoot them dead
    name="rocket2guns"]THats not true at all, honestly makes me very upset at that suggestion. I've saved out the full chat logs, which has all the details in. You can see me plead with him. I also begged for the MPs to come. I let him do what he wanted going down. But the captain told me I must stay ground side.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    was there any other witnesses?
    name="rocket2guns"]A lot of them yes, I have saved out the chat log. Honestly I've been working *really* hard and I take a lot of pride in running these transport runs. So I'm really offended at the suggestion. I can understand, but it was a *bizzare* experience. Literally first thing I come back on after getting my orders, he blocks me from getting in the cockpit. I say "hey buddy, in the back". and then he doesnt even speak to me, he just pushes me out. Captain is demanding I get down, as we have hugged marines. So I drag him. He punches me. Then it escalates. he keeps disarming me. I call for the MPs, beg for them. Captains tells them to go. Still I do nothing. he disarms me again. I let send us down, early I might add. When im down captain sends and order to stay groundside. No idea what to do, this guy doesnt even speak to me really at all. So i call the captain. He says I must stay groundside. I explain the situation.

    PM to-Admins: I mean who as a crew chief barges in anyway, kicks the pilot out, doesn't talk to him and then ignores the captains orders? It was insane.

    PM to-Admins: 2ndLt Aaron Cross was another.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    After 2 witnesses and a lack of logs i will issuing a heavy warning for breaking IE and shooting the DCC dead without proper escalation, the XO does not have the authority to order an execution outside of perma brig so you should not follow that order
    name="rocket2guns"]I'd very much like to appeal that, I completely disagree. I'd also like to know why the behavior of the crew chief isnt being investigated. Is this person an admin or staff?
    You load in and review a custom flight plan you took time to prepare earlier. This should cut half of the transport flight time on its own![/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    You may file a staff report on the forums if you believe it is in error
    Quote Originally Posted by rocket2guns
    Is this person a staff or an admin?
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    They are not but they have not broken any server rules, the commotion they were causing could have very easily been handled in character, you chose to break our escalation rules and draw a gun on them, leading to them going perma and leaving the server
    name="rocket2guns"]I totally disagree with that. Also, I think the way you handled it was very unprofessional. And I don't feel like you've given equal weight to the things ive described. you've assumed I didn't try to deal with it, when I very clearly did. Including pleading for the MPs to come. II tried to call pretty much everyone. I will be writing all this up, and posting it. What is the best ingame way that I can explain i'm leaving my post because I disagree with how this has been handled.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMoon
    As i said, if you disagree with my judgement and think that i am in error of how i handled it you may take it to the forums with a staff report
    WARNING ACTION RECEIVED

    You have been noted by MisterMoon.
    The note is : Heavy warning for Rule 10 - As PO, shot a DCC dead in the Alamo after they started disarming the player, no escalation was followed, claimed that the DCC shot at them with a gun but both witnesses the player provided claimed they did not see the DCC shoot at the PO
    If you believe this was filed in error or misplaced, make a staff report at The CM Forums
    You can also click the name of the staff member noting you to PM them.

    Do you understand that staff make the final decision in the resolution of this report?
    Yes
    EvidenceDo you understand that staff make the final decision in the resolution of this report?
    Yes

  2. #2
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    You gave me 2 witnesses to the situation, both of them said the DCC had not shot you.
    Game logs said that the DCC did not shoot you, combat logs said the DCC did not shoot you, the XO cannot give execution orders nor can they themselves skip escalation.
    The only thing that logs shows is the player repeatedly disarming you, which mind you is at most general melee and does not put your life at risk.

    Given the fact that 2 people both say that the DCC didnt shoot at you, that would remove the possibility of them missing shots on you, then no successful hits with items such as a knife from the DCC does not warrant an escalation to the fight. You committed IE, Rule 10, leading to the player going perma and overall ruining their round.

    As to why I did not "act against the DCC" they were fighting for their spot to remain in control of the dropship, although minor its still a reason, you could have handled the situation IC yet chose to shoot them dead.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Moon View Post
    You gave me 2 witnesses to the situation
    False.

    You: as there any other witnesses?

    Me: A lot of them yes, I have saved out the chat log.


    I gave you two immediately and indicated I had many in the chat log.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Moon View Post
    both of them said the DCC had not shot you.
    Could you post the logs of your discussions with them? Because that answer contracts what they said

    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Awion you forced him to shoot."
    ...
    LCpl Mia Hellin says, "Disarming armed men is DANGEROUS."


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Moon View Post
    Game logs said that the DCC did not shoot you, combat logs said the DCC did not shoot you
    7+1 / 9 ROUNDS REMAINING
    You accidentally make Johnny 'JJ' Jones's M4A3 service pistol go off during the struggle!2
    Awion Smit attempted to disarm Johnny 'JJ' Jones!
    Your chest hurts.
    6+1 / 9 ROUNDS REMAINING


    Search for "[src] has tried to disarm [target]!" inside the cm DM files, and you will see that while disarming someone, you are operating "their" weapon while it still on them. It can go off on the person, while still on the person. The disarm message has not been adjusted for locality, it is using [src] which is the owner of the weapon, not the player conducting the disarming action. This will affect how it shows in the logs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Moon View Post
    the XO cannot give execution orders nor can they themselves skip escalation.
    What concrete actions would you recommend a player does in this situation. Walk me through it as a teachable moment.

    The only thing that logs shows is the player repeatedly disarming you, which mind you is at most general melee and does not put your life at risk.
    Having coded in byond for many years, the server logging information is quite limited. Hence the need for parsing a lot more, which I am sure you are aware and is detailed here. That is why i was so confused your statement was declarative. Obviously, it's not quite as clearcut. But you found evidence of disarming, and disarming can cause a firearm to go off. No context was being given for why this was occurring. The player doing this spoke less than 10 words during the whole period, which ran over some time.

    Given the fact that 2 people both say that the DCC didnt shoot at you, that would remove the possibility of them missing shots on you, then no successful hits with items such as a knife from the DCC does not warrant an escalation to the fight. You committed IE, Rule 10, leading to the player going perma and overall ruining their round.
    It is certain the the weapon going off will record in the specific shooting log you are talking about, because that is called by a specific function to record damage of that type used in that way. As you can see from the logs of what he said, he was aware (I was not) that the gun went off during disarming. I was not aware this was a thing. So to me - the gun had been fired while being disarmed, and that gun had hit me. If you post what that user said, and what you asked, and I am sure it will become apparent the conf

    As to why I did not "act against the DCC" they were fighting for their spot to remain in control of the dropship, although minor its still a reason, you could have handled the situation IC yet chose to shoot them dead.
    I think a cursory read of the above indicates this is, at best, uncharitable, and at worse obtuse.

    I will outline a brief summary of actions I undertook:

    * Friendly approach to a mid-join player running into a dropship heading on an important task for the round. "hey bud".
    * I get dragged and punched.
    * I call for MPs
    * I call for Captain
    * I call for MPs
    * I give up, and walk back
    * I draw my pistol
    * Im disarmed, pistol hurts me - in the moment reasonable to assume I was shot
    * User makes almost no attempts during this time to communicate, less than 10 words spoken. Many of them the same word.
    * Even after landed, I still let it go, simply drawing a line in the sand based on what was necessary to achieve the commanders intent: DS stays on the LZ.
    * I speak to the captain, I ask for permission to "shoot". Note I did not ask permission for a BE.
    * I was told: "BE is authorized". Exact wording.

    This did not mean that I was to conduct a BE. It meant that, if this unknown, new, uncommunicative, combative person attempted to take control of the DS again - a BE was authorized. I made that clear.

    Personally, I think this is textbook de-escalation as best as possible in the circumstance.

    If you think I am wrong in this, perhaps it could be a great teachable moment for you to outline specific, actionable, things that could have been done that would have better de-escalated, and achieved the commanders intent.

    I think you are also fixated on the use of the term "BE" in the order.

    Consider the sitation:

    1. A new player joins a round, runs into the DS that is about to depart for what may be a full LZ evacation.
    2. The current pilot in control of the aircraft politely engages in questions about what is happening.
    3. The pilot gets grabbed, and punched.
    4. The pilot draws their weapon, asks whats going on, broadcasts on three changes - all public channels.
    5. Calls for MPs -multiple times. Calls and discusses with the captain.

    I think here the Captain was saying "lethal force is authorized to prevent the DS from leaving the LZ early". The term BE, might have simply been for brevity. Rather than as a punishment - such an instruction is clearly bound within this:

    Criminal charges are not to be applied to those who use force on others when defending themselves from illegal use of force, so long as they defend themselves with proportional force. This right extends to the defense of others, should there be a reason to believe they are in lethal danger. This provision does not apply to lawful killings such as executions.

    Self-Defense and the Defense of Others
    Proportional Force
    Punching against being punched.
    Melee weapons against melee weapons.
    Guns against guns.
    The person defending should only return with lethal force until the other person is unable to attack the defendant.
    The defendant should notify MP’s or his command about the use of self-defense.
    The person being attacked should also look to get away from the other attacker if possible, and alert the MP’s.
    In this case, I actually spent nearly the entire time doing nothing other than communicating. I did not once punch the person, or shoot them. I did drag them away (very common behavior is SS13/CM), and draw my pistol. I never disarmed them, or attempted to do so, and I didn't physically hurt them at all (including a punch) until I had specifically spoken and received instruction from the Captain.

    Additionally, I think the SOPs clearly outline in Authorized Weapons - Code Restrictions the important and intent on an aircraft that is conducting and LZ for an evacuation, as follows:

    ...The acting Commander may order a general Evacuation, Self Destruction of the ship, or hold the Almayer.
    While it was the ALAMO. The commander had ordered me to hold the ALAMO, specifically. And had informed me, perhaps in the wrong way, I was to do everything possible including stopping a specific hazard - who had been warned what would happen if they did.

    Additionally in the same section, the following:

    [quote]Exception: Firearm use and possession are allowed if you or someone you are responsible for are in immediate, life-threatening danger and the appropriate code-level has not been set.[quote]

    The Captain had announced a very likely immediate evacuation for the ALAMO. The delays due to the DCC trying to assume "captainship" (their words) of the ALAMO was a very real threat to this. And unknown person turns up, immediately does all this - speaking fewer than ten words.

    All things considered, I suspect what the Captain really meant was Code Delta for ALAMO. I.e. Do not let the DS leave unless leaving is necessary to save lives. Wait as long as possible. His use of the term BE was probably for brevity, and it's intent was well communicated.

  4. #4
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    This is witness 1

    2023/02/17: [13:59:04]ADMIN: PM: MisterMoon/(Elder Lurker (FUN-212))->Sunless/(Mia Hellin): other way round, did the crew chief shoot at the PO?
    2023/02/17: [13:59:43]ADMIN: PM: Sunless/(Mia Hellin)->MisterMoon/(Elder Lurker (FUN-212)): If he had, I'm oblivious to it.

    They have not seen the DCC shoot you
    And for witness 2,

    2023/02/17: [14:12:30]ADMIN: PM: MisterMoon/(Elder Lurker (FUN-212))->NixisRD/(Aaron Cross): So the DCC never shot any bullets?
    2023/02/17: [14:12:42]ADMIN: PM: NixisRD/(Aaron Cross)->MisterMoon/(Elder Lurker (FUN-212)): not as far as i know

    Also claiming the DCC had not shot you.

    The fact you claim the fact you provided these names is false is quite absurd considering you brought one up in this report

    The reason you had taken damage is because he punched you 1 time earlier, prompting the "your chest hurts" message, not once did he shoot you, he had only disarmed you, the only bullets shown to have been fired is because you held out your pistol and he disarmed you, causing a discharge.

    As i said, the captain can NOT authorise lethal force unless the person is shown to be a direct threat to the crew of the USCM, this is by lethal weaponry only, they had only used general melee and do not fit into this category

    May i also bring up the fact that if you fire a bullet as result of them disarming you, that is infact not them firing the round and would be considered as accidental FF usually should it hit someone, unless the disarmer has intent to cause havoc by causing a missfire.

    You were not in any immediate danger that classified as life threatening and chose to go to your firearm anyway without going through the server rules regarding proper escalation. They were using general melee against you and so you should have resorted to at most in this situation, a boot knife if you are really that determined to get your job done
    Last edited by Mr Moon; 02-17-2023 at 07:40 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Note in the code when you disarm someone, there is a chance that the gun will go off.

    https://github.com/cmss13-devs/cmss1..._attackhand.dm

    Additionally, in this code you can see that "M" is the mob being disarmed:

    msg_admin_attack("[key_name(M)] disarmed [key_name(src)] in [get_area(src)] ([src.loc.x],[src.loc.y],[src.loc.z]).", src.loc.x, src.loc.y, src.loc.z)
    However there is a semantic error in line 144:

    visible_message(SPAN_DANGER("[M] accidentally makes [src]'s [W.name] go off during the struggle!"), SPAN_DANGER("You accidentally make [src]'s [W.name] go off during the struggle!"), null, 5)
    That confuses the person being disarmed, as the message appears to say they have injured themselves while disarming themselves. When they were injured by someone else disarming them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Moon View Post
    The fact you claim the fact you provided these names is false is quite absurd considering you brought one up in this report
    Facts:
    * You asked me if there were witnesses
    * I said there were many, and included two as samples at the time
    * I never said there were only two

    I know it is long, but context is important. I provided who I thought were two witnesses who would best have seen what happened, and I indicated there were many others who I could find in the logs. I think a person acting impartially to ascertain the truth here would then reply asking for the additional witnesses, as the initial two provided are not giving you the confirmation you need.

    However this is actually immaterial to my point. The weapon went off because the person disarmed me. This is corroberated by the code, my lgos, and it would appear in unsupplied messages prior to the one you posted (I am assuming, as you are rephrasing the question).

    You can see from the code, the admin message for disarming includes code that shoots a player. Ergo, you have indicated that the admin logs show I was disarmed. A disarmed player with a loaded gun in hand has a chance of being shot. Therefore, your own investigation - and the first witness I provided - all corroborate this account.

    I had begun with a response to your recent message. However, I would argue I am appealing to the stone with you on this one.

    Could you post the full conversations you had with the witnesses? I am concerned that how you represented the first witness, does not well line up with the small portion you posted. You made it sound like the witness did not corroborate my account. however it seems you had to rephrase your question to get the answer you wanted.

  6. #6
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    Yes you can cause a gun to go off if you disarm them, but that bullet has a 0 percent chance of hitting yourself, i have never seen it happen and if you did get hit, it would have shown up in logs, you have still not disputed the entire reason this note was made
    The rule i noted you for was

    Rule 10. Lethal Force
    Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario. A fist fight does not suddenly escalate into a gun fight. Should one defend themselves from grief or improper escalation, the staff handling the matter decides if a punishment is given out and to who. Staff may also decide to leave things in character. Even if you are justified, you are still susceptible to Marine Law.

    Your life was not in jeopardy by their actions, nor did they ever use a knife on you, they only ever disarmed, i did not note you because your gun went off i noted you because you shot the DCC dead because they disarmed you

    I also don't appreciate how you call my arguments as repeating the same point and calling yours absurd, when you have not once addressed the fact that you completely skipped escalation and shot a player dead, leading to them going perma, The logs of the 2 witnesses who WERE THERE at the time of the encounter both said that the DCC did not once shoot upon you, therefore your life was not at risk.
    The rest of the conversations with the witnesses i dont feel are important as they either tell whats already been told and just go straight to the part where the DCC did not shoot you

    With your next response i will be expecting evidence to justify why you shot the DCC and not game mechanics that do not play a part in this report
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  7. #7
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    I appreciate my report is long, but I wanted to detail out as much as possible. Perhaps, in trying to be thorough, I have made the mistake of obfuscating my point so I will attempt in a concise format now.

    Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario.
    A new DCC had turned up, taken control of the DS. They were not communicating, beyond a few words. They stated "I am drop ship cap". They disarmed, punched, and ejected me from the cockpit of the aircraft. I was the sole Pilot Officer since round-start, and this was a late-join who had just run in.

    The DS had been ordered by the Captain to remain grounded on the LZ, as the force was failing and the Captain wanted the ALAMO to remain to conduct an emergency evacuation. As detailed in the public announcements, the Captain was concerned that the flanks were falling. He wanted the ALAMO on the LZ, if not they were concerned the entire force would be lost.

    That is very much a legitimate, explainable, roleplay reason for my character to be concerned about what was occuring in the cockpit. Note that at no time did I attempt to escalate the situation. This is because I had no ability to do so - I was completely unarmed and carrying a service pistol, which was not going to be immediately useful for any decisive engagement.

    i noted you because you shot the DCC dead because they disarmed you
    I shot the DCC dead, because the DCC was taking control of the aircraft for an unknown purpose, against the wishes of the Captain, during a pending emergency evacuation with fronts failing. The Captain had told me directly, and issued announcments, to this effect. I have not indicated, nor would I think an even uncharitable reading of what occurred, give anyone the impression I shot the DCC because they disarmed me.

    Your life was not in jeopardy by their actions
    I completely agree with this. My life was not in danger. Which is why I took no physical action. However, as Pilot-In-Command, I had a responsibility - clearly communicated by the Captain through announcements, radio, and directly - to ensure the ALAMO stayed on the LZ. If the ALAMO was to depart the LZ, I would have failed in my duty to ensure the vessel was available to conduct an evacuation. The time it would take to cycle the aircraft back would leave everyone dead. So, I don't think it is at all fair or reasonable to suggest that nobody was in danger simply because I personally was not in danger.

    Consider I had an unpredictable, non-communicative new join DCC. Was he going to cycle the ALAMO? Was he going to push me out?

    the fact that you completely skipped escalation and shot a player dead
    The reason I am frustrated, and feeling your argument is absurd, is that you keep saying I "completely skipped escalation". Perhaps you could outline to me what I would have done, that would have counted as escalation?

    leading to them going perma
    The deceased was cycled back to the main ship within minutes, taken to medical - where the captain confirmed the outcome. It is unfair, and completely untrue to suggest that I caused them to go perma. I ensured they remained dead, got them back, and explained why to the medical - which they confirmed with the captain in clear comms.

  8. #8
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    After a good second and reading a few comments i will put this report in a very clear and concise manner.

    This very clear line of text is the very first line from rule 10, lethal force

    Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario. A fist fight does not suddenly escalate into a gun fight.

    you got punched 1 time at the start of the fight, that's how you got injured, you did not get shot, it explains why your chat logs said "your chest hurts" you would know if you got shot as it says it in very large bold letters that "you have been shot by (bullet type) in the (limb)" it will appear like this https://imgur.com/7LeQpK3

    To accompany this you will get a very distinct gun shot wound sound effect and a bleeding icon in the top right of your screen, your character will flash red and a blood splatter would appear, there is enough cues to understand whether you actually have been shot or not and you decided to assume that the bullets (which you shot because of the scuffle) was the DCC shooting you.
    This in itself is clear negligence to understand the threat and shows me that you weren't paying enough attention to the situation, all of this along with the fact that logs and combat logs all show you had not been shot ONCE during the time of the incident.

    Now that the fact that the player never actually shot you has been cleared up, I will go onto the XOs order, there is only ONE person who can perform any form of battlefield execution, that is the commanding officer (CO), NOT the acting commanding officer (ACO) and therefore the fact that the XO said to proceed with a battlefield execution is not only unlawful but against server rules should it be committed as it is only to be available to those with the CO whitelist while playing as a CO or other roles whom are execution qualified, you can read the rules on battlefield executions here: https://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law#...ion_Privileges and how it is under CO provisions, does not say that XOs may do it and says that it must be commenced in person and thus cannot be done via ordering someone else to do it

    With all of this in mind, you still chose to shoot the DCC dead on the spot. You do get a boot knife, if you want to escalate the fight, do it realistically and within server rules, if there is a fight in the army, a low ranking officer doesn't immediately resort to shooting their colleagues dead, there were also other marines around who could have helped you detain the DCC in question, I know there was plenty as you bring them all up as witnesses https://imgur.com/AvtRvLh

    All of this ended up with the DCC going perma and eventually leaving the server, which i personally don't think should happen because of someone's poor judgement

    I do hope this clears up why exactly you got noted
    Last edited by Mr Moon; 02-21-2023 at 07:58 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Hi, these are the logs I decided to grab.

    Let me know if anymore are needed.

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  10. #10
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    I understand where you are coming from. But I think several questions need to be considered.

    QUESTION ONE: Would a reasonable person believe in this circumstance that they had recevied a lawful order?

    The UCMJ makes it clear that there is a presumption of lawfulness when several aspects are applied:

    1. issuance by competent authority – a person authorized by applicable law to give such an order;

    2. communication of words that express a specific mandate to do or not do a specific act;

    3. relationship of the mandate to a military duty; in light of the presumption of lawfulness, a long-standing principles of military justice

    The exact words from the CIC were "BE is authorized". Note the use of passive voice. Note that after this statement the CIC hung up. How was the PO in this situation supposed to ascertain any further information from this? Should the PO then call up CIC, disrupting CIC further and additionally losing valuable time in an emergency situation?

    The phrase here is deliberate, and specific. BE has been authorized. Given the presumption of a lawful order, which has a long-standing principle that is at the core of functioning executive branches. If there is not a presumption of a lawful order, then subordinates are free to question at any time.

    Consider if the order had been "I have authorized a BE", would that have been different? How much knowledge do we expect marines to have in this situation? Should a marine know what a CO/XO is allowed to authorize? The knowledge required for a CO/XO to operate is extensive, which is why it is a whitelisted position, and there is a Council that looks into the nuances.

    Are all marines, such as the PO, expected to know the nuances? Does this help with the maintenance of good order and discipline?

    I would argue the opposite. The long-standing principle of the presumption of a lawful order has its origins rooted in the need for orders to be presumed lawful, and the burden of proof where someone were to claim it not is on the person claiming so. They must have evidence to do so.

    I think the evidence makes the following very clear:

    1. A command was issued by the CIC via announcement and direct communication with the PO.

    2. Given the assumption that orders are lawful and given the information, situation, and time allowed to follow the given order a reasonable marine would have considered the order lawful.

    3. This was not a decision made by the PO independently, this was an action undertaken by a PO following an order received from CIC. The note given does not take into account the actions were undertaken at the request of CIC. Any lawfulness of the action, needs to consider the decisions and culpability of the XO who issued the order.

    4. If we reject these arguments, consider the chilling impact. This means when given an order, marines must consider they will be held wholy responsible for their lawfulness. Including, in this instance, when there is no additional information beyond "BE is authorized", and accouncements.

    5. Given the server rules around malicious compliance we can see that situations where someone knowingly, and with intent to be malicious, goes forth and implements an unlawful order there is a scheme for punishment. There is a very chilling impact if we do not consider the chain of command and a presumption of lawful orders. There is good reasons that all legal systems have this principle.

    As such, I think not only is there not a good public interest in this note. I think there is a chilling impact in rejecting the principle of presumed lawful commands.

    I suggest the following:

    OPTION 1: The note be removed, and a policy discussion clarify the position on the presumption of lawful orders, and the expected culpability for marines when CO/XO's exceed their authority.

    OPTION 2: The note be removed and replaced with one that explains the context, in that the action was not an independent one, but was undertaken on the basis of a command issued unlawfully.

    The essential attributes of a lawful order that sustain the presumption of lawfulness include: (1) issuance by competent authority – a person authorized by applicable law to give such an order; (2) communication of words that express a specific mandate to do or not do a specific act; and (3) relationship of the mandate to a military duty; in light of the presumption of lawfulness, long-standing principles of military justice place the burden of rebutting this presumption on the accused).

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