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Thread: Staff Report - Segrain

  1. #1
    Member BurnedSweetPotato's Avatar
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    Staff Report - Segrain

    Staff Report
    Your BYOND Key
    BurnedSweetPotato
    Date of Incident
    March 4, 2023
    Your Character Name?
    Zack Fernandez
    Their BYOND Key
    Segrain
    Approximate time and date of the incident
    9:40 CST
    Which of the following are you reporting?
    3. Enforcement Action Taken
    Description of the incident
    I was receiving field surgery by a doctor whom was clearly in need of help and even verbally struggling.

    Now after seeing this, I have two logical and immediate responses I can take:

    1 - Help him ICly - I first attempted to resolve the issue ICly through an inoffensive comment about me training to be a nurse before joining the marines and how I thought you might need to "retract" it(the retractor was the next and correct step)

    He didn't get the hint, so I moved to 2 - LOOC.

    I told him "retractor", "retractor" (byond ate my message in LOOC so I was unable to see the second one, which is why I again sent a third message)

    To add onto his inability to do the surgery, he prodded me with every single surgical tool multiple times. He didn't know the next step.

    He must have seen my LOOC message and then finally retracted my wound closed and cauterized it.

    My chest was still broken after he finished, again adding onto his necessity for help.

    I was then immediately PM'd by Segrain "do not do that" and noted.

    You will see my case in the ahelp made.

    I was teaching him how to play the game in LOOC. ICly, a doctor SHOULD know how to perform surgery. I suppose the case could be made I am conveying IC information in OOC, yet I struggle to see what "advantage" could be gained by teaching a player how to play the game. He lacked OOC knowledge of the step, which I told him OOCly.

    In the five years I have been playing this game never once has telling someone a single game mechanic in LOOC been a rulebreak. This is equivalent to telling someone how to pump a shotgun (yes, he might PB a runner and therefore be at an "advantage", but it is an OOC lack of knowledge that is being provided)

    If applicable to this case, a rules clarification would be appreciated.
    Evidence
    Rule 6 on the wiki clearly states "IC information should not be posted to any public location where other parties can be given an advantage." - This is what I was noted for, IC in OOC, yet I don't see how this is an "advantage" equivalent to metacommunication of telling someone where the hive/scout/etc is.

    Not Metacommunication
    "Teaching someone how to play the game and various mechanics through Voicechat, LOOC or other external communication methods."- This is exactly what I did. A textbook case of "not metacommunication" (IC in OOC)
    Do you understand that staff make the final decision in the resolution of this report?
    Yes

  2. #2
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    Reporter - BurnedSweetPotato - Zack Fernandez
    Accused - Segrain

    The doctor was James Fredrick
    Spoiler Spoiler:

  3. #3
    Dev Team
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    After the round ended, the incident was brought up on Discord. I will not try to recap the entier discussion here - the reporter is likely to have seen at least part of it. I will, though, try to briefly repeat some of the points I was trying to make.
    It is perfectly fine for anybody - staff, mentor or ordinary player - to teach new players. Nobody is denying that. However, it is well understood that using LOOC to communicate concerns like "shake me" or "give me this and that drug" is not acceptable. There have been some mechanical restrictions on LOOC usage added, but the question remains: where do we draw the line between trying to help and trying to gain an advantage? When the communication is being undertaken solely to receive medical treatment more efficiently, I believe the answer to be clear.
    However, I admit that the question in general is not easy to answer. We do not have prewritten rules covering every possible scenario, so we interpret their spirit as we can on the spot. In an attempt to provide as fair judgement as possible, I took the note and the ticket conversation (most of it - it was before last few messages) to staff channel in Discord and asked for opinions. The first response I received was in agreement with my opinion, so I proceeded with keeping the note. The discussion there then slowly developed further - slowly enough that I decided to wait and let it grow before escalating it to the next step. Before that growth could happen, though, round ended, a public discussion erupted, and after some talking in the public channel I proceeded to escalate the matter to a formal rule clarification request. It took some time, of course, before the answer was given. The main body of the answer was: "LOOC can be used to educate, but should not be used to tell people what to do.". It then continued to answer some of specific examples I used in my question, but unfortunately not the example actually involving the situation at hand here. After seeing that answer, I asked a followup question emphasising this specific situation, but I have not received any answer to it yet. Once I finish writing this post, I will reiterate my question in appropriate staff channel.
    Between considering the spirit of the relevant rule, asking other staff for advice and eventually bringing the matter to management's attention, I believe that I had done almost everything possible to provide as fair a judgement as I was able. "Almost", because I had not actually taken a deep look at the characters' speech logs for the round - I could not imagine there being anything to alleviate the fault there. Now that the logs are gathered and posted, though, I have to bring attention to some of them.
    [15:25:37]SAY: Zack Fernandez [1]: What step are you on.
    [15:25:50]SAY: Zack Fernandez [1]: I was training to become an RN before I joined up
    [15:26:00]SAY: Zack Fernandez [1]: Okay, now uh, you gotta close the bones probably
    This is not even LOOC. This is a squad marine, in character, instructing a surgeon with medical degree on how to do surgery. It shatters any suspension of disbelief. It is using out of character knowledge, with a justification so flimsy ("I was training to become somebody who is not qualified for this anyway") that it does not help any and only makes it worse. It, coupled with then continuing in LOOC, makes me unable to believe that the intention here was to harmlessly educate a new player and not "tell him what to do". That alone should be enough to call this metagaming, or some other rulebreak name - our naming scheme is not the best to describe everything in strict letter of the rules, but I believe that spirit of the rules has been broken here.
    Last edited by Segrain; 03-06-2023 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #4
    CM-SS13 Host Frozentsbgg's Avatar
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    I'll agree with Sergrain here.
    It's the same when you're screaming for a medic to revive you in LOOC.

    We have OOC mentors ready to help! Sorry you got stuck with a bald nurse.

    Closing this Report.


    Edit: In hindsight, The Spirit of the rules and BSPs efforts to first deal with it IC probably mean a note is warranted, even if by the letter of the law LOOC shouldn't be being used for that. Note Lifted. Sergrain admits he made a judgement call here, so I'll leave it at that with a ruling.

    I'm happy to wear my 180.
    Last edited by Frozentsbgg; 03-14-2023 at 12:03 AM.
    Thanks! and have a CM Day

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