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Thread: Remove Ice From Rotation

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madventurer View Post
    Prison is the worst map due to bland design, massive amounts of chokepoints, 2x hallways in 75% of the station, the central ring is pointless and opens too late, most of the map is just copypasted feel and you get lost in there even if you know the map.
    Still better than Ice that is not used in 50%, have shitty cold mechanic, snow, underground that is exactly like "dreaded prison". Prison is fun, a lot of usefull shit lying around, cool overall and in good size.

    Atlest with chokepoints you can't have delays where benos can easly escape any death and marines who can't catch them. You either die, or win on Prison. Rounds are a bit shorter than average etc.

    I would strongly disagree with prison being hard to navigate. It's the easiest map to know where you are after LV (it can even compete with LV thanks to lack of caves. Caves are the definition of copypasted the same walls).

  2. #12
    Senior Member Madventurer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Still better than Ice that is not used in 50%, have shitty cold mechanic, snow, underground that is exactly like "dreaded prison". Prison is fun, a lot of usefull shit lying around, cool overall and in good size.

    Atlest with chokepoints you can't have delays where benos can easly escape any death and marines who can't catch them. You either die, or win on Prison. Rounds are a bit shorter than average etc.

    I would strongly disagree with prison being hard to navigate. It's the easiest map to know where you are after LV (it can even compete with LV thanks to lack of caves. Caves are the definition of copypasted the same walls).
    Cold mechanic is a great concept poorly executed and the underground really needs a rework, but the atmosphere in Ice is fantastic.

    Prison is not fun at all, the 'useful' shit is only useful if you're an engi or want to have a snowflake gun for 3 magazines. The concept of a space station that's not a normal station is fine, but Prison really doesn't work for it. The cells are very boring and especially in the northern and southern halves of the station are so similar that it's hard to tell which part of it you're in. It's also hard to build in for xenos, except for sticky, which is both boring and really annoying for marines.

    While I agree that Ice really needs a rework, Prison can't be saved by a rework, it needs to be scrapped and started over, into an asteroid mining prison labour station or similar.
    Tyson 'Bunny' Sphere


  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madventurer View Post
    Cold mechanic is a great concept poorly executed and the underground really needs a rework, but the atmosphere in Ice is fantastic.

    Prison is not fun at all, the 'useful' shit is only useful if you're an engi or want to have a snowflake gun for 3 magazines. The concept of a space station that's not a normal station is fine, but Prison really doesn't work for it. The cells are very boring and especially in the northern and southern halves of the station are so similar that it's hard to tell which part of it you're in. It's also hard to build in for xenos, except for sticky, which is both boring and really annoying for marines.

    While I agree that Ice really needs a rework, Prison can't be saved by a rework, it needs to be scrapped and started over, into an asteroid mining prison labour station or similar.
    Maybe, I still like Prison more.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    ICE is objectively the worst. Prison in in my biased opinion the best.

    Change my mind with facts.
    Prison is a series of two or three tile wide cramped hallways which lead into the occasional small room. That is the entire map. It is all the same and there is little functional difference between one set of cramped hallways and another.

    With the nature of CM combat, cramped hallways are just about the least fun or interesting place to fight for both sides. Unless you're a crusher, narrow hallways are the worst. Marines continuously shove into each other, shoot each other, etc. Going in first is instant death if you run into boiler gas because you'll be bodyblocked to death by the mass of men behind you. Defences are always the most rudimentary because there isn't room to do anything else. Cade off the hallway. That's it. It's just hallways from one end to the other.

    For xenos, things are similarly bad. Apart from Crusher who, as mentioned, can have endless fun pressing D and then pressing A and killing entire squads in the process, xenos also suffer from the narrow hallways. They get bodyblocked. They get cut off. They get trapped. That is, if they do anything interesting. If they just sit there and wait for the marines to slowly shuffle their way in, they'll win. But they'll win in the most boring way imaginable: by doing nothing. The tight spaces punish anyone who does things, and rewards those who sit around and wait for other people to fuck up.

    And, on top of the entire map being made of tight hallways that are frustrating to fight in and boring to look at, there's another problem: the map funnels the fighting into the same place every time. Decisive battles on Prison station almost always take place around the Crash site, or a little to the east or west of it. The map funnels everyone to this spot, there's one big fight, and then the loser of that fight loses the game. There's a reason why Prison is regularly over by 12:50, and this is it. If the marines win this fight, they roll into Civilian Residences(the only viable hive location on the entire map) and kill everything. If they lose, the xenos roll straight to the FOB and the marines are evaccing by 13:00. The Northern half of the map barely exists except as a place for people to find tac shotguns. I could continue, but won't out of laziness. It's bad.

    Ice, on the other hand, is also bad, but the surface map is actually good. The problem is the underground, which is basically prison station and is a mess of samey hallways(but at least it's less cramped and has more proper rooms). The main issues are that ladders and elevators are deathtraps and the underground is too cramped.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauntasa View Post
    Prison is a series of two or three tile wide cramped hallways which lead into the occasional small room. That is the entire map. It is all the same and there is little functional difference between one set of cramped hallways and another.

    With the nature of CM combat, cramped hallways are just about the least fun or interesting place to fight for both sides. Unless you're a crusher, narrow hallways are the worst. Marines continuously shove into each other, shoot each other, etc. Going in first is instant death if you run into boiler gas because you'll be bodyblocked to death by the mass of men behind you. Defences are always the most rudimentary because there isn't room to do anything else. Cade off the hallway. That's it. It's just hallways from one end to the other.

    For xenos, things are similarly bad. Apart from Crusher who, as mentioned, can have endless fun pressing D and then pressing A and killing entire squads in the process, xenos also suffer from the narrow hallways. They get bodyblocked. They get cut off. They get trapped. That is, if they do anything interesting. If they just sit there and wait for the marines to slowly shuffle their way in, they'll win. But they'll win in the most boring way imaginable: by doing nothing. The tight spaces punish anyone who does things, and rewards those who sit around and wait for other people to fuck up.

    And, on top of the entire map being made of tight hallways that are frustrating to fight in and boring to look at, there's another problem: the map funnels the fighting into the same place every time. Decisive battles on Prison station almost always take place around the Crash site, or a little to the east or west of it. The map funnels everyone to this spot, there's one big fight, and then the loser of that fight loses the game. There's a reason why Prison is regularly over by 12:50, and this is it. If the marines win this fight, they roll into Civilian Residences(the only viable hive location on the entire map) and kill everything. If they lose, the xenos roll straight to the FOB and the marines are evaccing by 13:00. The Northern half of the map barely exists except as a place for people to find tac shotguns. I could continue, but won't out of laziness. It's bad.

    Ice, on the other hand, is also bad, but the surface map is actually good. The problem is the underground, which is basically prison station and is a mess of samey hallways(but at least it's less cramped and has more proper rooms). The main issues are that ladders and elevators are deathtraps and the underground is too cramped.
    ICE above ground is just Big red, but bigger, with snow that slows mainly marines, with cold that affects only marines, with big spaces where benos can just run as much as they want, without a chance to corner them. Multiple flank routes available primarly for benos, map is so big that nobody even visists half of the map. Delaying is the game and "ICE" is its name. Where in Prison you have gameplay of "Win, or die, push, or be pushed", on ICE it's just constant chase and cheezy ladder camping. Rounds usually lasts way too long. Nobody likes to just wander around and miss all the fun while on Prison it's near impossible to not engage anything. Ladder placement is fucked to the state of teleporting you around the map since they don't match entrenances and exits.

    Cramped hallways force both sides to change their tactics. Massive Zerg rushes are less viable, Quality starts to shine. You have to learn to maneuver, just pressing one key on keyboard will not make you safe. Runners are less annoying, flanks are easier to defend. Area denial like acid and flames start to mean something, lots of metal for engineers, nearly every wall is destructable, this means that every side can shape the battlefield on their side and only their imagination (and resources) are the limit.
    Neat idea of Sentries that shoot both sides, non-standard weapons lying all around for added fun.

    Point of the PFC/Beno gameplay is to fight, being pushed "back and forth" and both sides are forced to do that. While on ICE both sides can retreat in eternity. Marines push from LZ, benos go deeper, marines push deeper, benos go underground, marines go underground, benos go to underground caves. Benos push from those caves, marines retreat to ladders/elevators, benos push, marines go above, benos go above, marines retreat to bar, benos push, marines go LZ. It's a chore.
    While on Prison it's much faster, you either "Die, or Win".
    "The map funnels everyone to this spot, there's one big fight, and then the loser of that fight loses the game" That is the beauty of Prison. What other map have one big fight on such scale and such importance outside FOB?

    Prison is faster, have bigger fights, allows more tactics to be deployed and shifts "meta". This alone makes it way more interesting than any ICE round. Prison is unique, while ICE is just Big Red with a bit of Prison "flavour" underground.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Madventurer's Avatar
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    Prison's short rounds are NOT a good thing, which seems to be a major difference in our thinking.

    One flaw with your statement about Prison having bigger fights: Those fights are in a narrow corridor, so of course they feel big when both sides immediately fill the only available passage, barring rare long flanks.
    Tyson 'Bunny' Sphere


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madventurer View Post
    Prison's short rounds are NOT a good thing, which seems to be a major difference in our thinking.

    One flaw with your statement about Prison having bigger fights: Those fights are in a narrow corridor, so of course they feel big when both sides immediately fill the only available passage, barring rare long flanks.
    I still like them and I still think that ICE is just overall the worst map from 4 currently available. "Vote ICE and leave the server" exist for a reason.

  8. #18
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    Quick update. This just in. Ice is not being removed from the rotation! Rejoice!

  9. #19
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    King Clog forsakes his people..

  10. #20
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    Hehe...
    " - Worst map that crashes server?"
    " - Maybe remove?"
    " - Yeah, it's beno biased"
    " - DON'T REMOVE, REJOICE!"

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