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Thread: Pogo's Weapon Discussion -- The M41A.

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    Pogo's Weapon Discussion -- The M41A.

    Hi, I'm Pogo and I really like guns. I am not an expert in any academic or professional capacity, but I have spent a lot of my life learning and reading about firearms and firearms history. Because of this, I would like to discuss some of the weapons that are present in the game, both in-game and extrapolated in reality. This will be a series of threads that I will post, or stop posting, whenever I feel like because I am a flaky prat. Also to note, I am not an expert on Alien lore so I will be vaguely reference in-game info and whatever secondary fiction data I find interesting. In-game info will override Alien lore.

    Today I wanted to talk about the M41A, because it is the M41A. It is an assault rifle firing 10�24mm Caseless rounds, capable of semi-auto and 3-round burst fire, and feeding from either 40-round magazines in the Mk.2 or 95-round magazines in the Mk.1. The only other noticeable differences between the Mk.1 and Mk.2 are slightly worse accuracy and attachment options on the Mk.1

    There are some interesting things to note about these weapons, which I wanted to talk about today.

    First, the ammunition. The rifle fires caseless ammo, which is an interesting technology that technically exists today, but is not currently practical. A traditional round has a few common components across all designs.

    1. A bullet, the actual projectile that leaves the barrel, which is typically lead made of lead. It can be cast with metal to increase penetration or lethality, and comes in a variety of designs to adjust it's aerodynamics and terminal ballistics (Terminal ballistics are what happens when a bullet actually hits it's target--Does it shatter, tumble, perforate, penetrate, ect.). Interestingly, the bullet on 10x24 Caseless is tipped with explosives, which is unusual in cartridges of this size as there is rarely enough actual volume in a "intermediate cartridge" to put enough explosives in that will create damage greater than what the kinetic energy does through "cavitation" independently.

    2. Powder, or propellant. This is the stuff that propels the bullet forward when ignited. This work by expanding into a gas when it's ignited, creating an area of enormously high pressure behind the bullet it, pushing it out of the gun much like a fat person belly flopping into a kiddy pool. It is stable unless exposed to flames or a spark, which means it does need to be contained in order to prevent accidental detonations.

    3. Casing. This is a typically metal casing, typically brass, that typically contains the powder, bullet, and primer in one convenient, typical package. As well as protecting everything inside from a generally bad day of unintentional detonations, this can also help the gun "seal" the chamber during firing to prevent any pesky heated gas from escaping the chamber, possibly injuring the shooter and, more importantly, reducing bullet velocity.

    4. The primer. This is a pressure-activated explosive of minature size. It is used to ignite the gunpowder when struck, from behind, by hammer or firing pin. No, this does not sound like my Saturday nights. Please stop spreading these false rumors about me.

    A Caseless round forgoes the "casing" part of the cartridge, which kind of creates a LOT of issues. It does have benefits, though--Much lighter ammunition means everyone can carry much more ammo. It also means not dealing with discard casings, which is helpful in environments like the inside of a combat vehicle.

    In place of a casing, a solidified propellant powder and primer are typically used, which have historically been a lot more fragile than brass cartridges. The problem with that is "consistency" is vital in producing accurate results on your target, so a chip in the propellant here or there alcan cause inches of deflection down range, or even worse, failures to fire. Another issue is that a gun will get very fucking hot, to use the technical term, and propellant ignites when it is heated. This is still an issue with brass cartridges currently which causes a "cook-off" ignition, which can result in "chain detonations" wherein your gun will continue shooting until it runs out of ammo, against your will. As bad as that is, it is much more likely to happen with a caseless cartridge as there is no brass insulation to protect the powder, as well as no ejection port to vent heat after every shot. Additional issues like checking the chamber and clearing misfires will also pop up in Caseless gun designs.

    To note, the gun fires via a electronic "firing pin" meaning the primer recieves a pulse of electricity instead of being struck kinetically. My intuition is that this is combined with chemical engineering for the primer to lower the risk of cook-off detonations. However, it also raises additional problems--Electronic firing requires a battery supply to continue operation, and circuitry to connect the trigger to the battery to the firing pin. This represent additional fragile components that, when compromised, will stop the operation of the firearm completely. In a war zone, harsh conditions like rain and explosions are the norm place, which raises additional concerns of reliability. Mechanical systems, while still vulnerable to some degree, are usually experience remedial issues that can be resolved by quick maintenance or cleaning. Electronic components are the total opposite. Soldiers will also have to carry additional batteries to keep their weapons operating, which means less of everything else.

    Info on the ammo is not particularly in-depth, but we can extrapolate some facts. First, at a diameter of 10mm, this is a pretty wide bullet. However, considering the length of the propellant is 24mm TOTAL, and the bullet weighs 210 grains, the picture of the bullet starts to look like a fairly short, fat cartridge compared to modern 5.56 or 7.62 NATO. It certainly raises questions about the design of the bullet, as a shape like that would not be particularly stable for long-distance shooting. Without getting into the details of cross-sectional density and aerodynamics, it does not seem like a plausible design. It is, however, quite fast, heavy, and wide, which should mean it's both very deadly and very harsh recoiling.

    Next topic about the M4A1, this is a BIG GUN. Holy moly, it is definitely bulky and probably should be quite heavy (Although it is not surprsingly, at around 4.9kg). I can imagine the ergonomics of using this bad boy is miserable, not to mention lugging it around 24 hours a day. As nitpicky as this seems, bear in mind the heavier or bulkier a gun is, the less ammo or supplies a soldier can carry into combat. Modern militaries have put more and more emphasis on lighter weapons because of this. There is a benefit to a heavier gun, though--It will have less felt recoil per shot than a lighter gun, which makes repeated fire easier to do and more precise. As well, bulkier weapons are much more obtrusive in compact environments, like an armored troop carrier or a dropship.

    The gun has a magazine counter on it, which is a nice feature. The big issues with features like this tends to be the fragility of computerized components in a war-zone environment and the increased production cost, weapon size and weight, and maintenance. Still, if they found a way to make it work reliabily this is a cool feature, although honestly unnecessary.

    The weapon features a standard issue underbarrel grenade launcher which can launch standard-issue grenades. This is absolutely a great addition to the gun, although the addition of it to every rifleman's weapon is probably excessive based on modern doctrine. However, in the future maybe wars will be fought by lobbing grenades at each other from a couple hundred feet away. There is certainly some contemporary debate about that.

    The M41A does now feature a variety of attachments that can enhance its capabilities, which is excellent as proper optics and ergonomics are important in efficient marksmanship. The, uh, "realism" of some of the attachments may not be sound, but that's a topic for another day.

    At the end of the day, while it seems like a functional design, it does not seem to be a "good" design. I'll stop myself before I ramble any further, though. Thoughts?

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    This...is beautiful. I have spent many hours pouring over Aliens lore to learn about the guns and ammunition and you hav made my day with this post.

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    I've wracked my head a lot about how the hell the M41A is supposed to work, and I believe the most plausible, in-universe explanation is that it uses tech similar to that of APCs: wireless power distribution, in this case fully contained within the weapon's frame.
    If the power source is sufficiently miniaturized, and uses some form of (effectively) limitless recharging such as recycling heat and excess kinetic energy generated from discharging the weapon, it could very well have a reliability comparable to that of modern firearms even with the technological hurdles involved.

    There's also the possibility that the M41As are purposefully built to be sub-standard weapons with reliability and effective range issues, which is particularly plausible considering the existence of optimized versions of the weapon in the hands of PMCs and Deathsquads in-universe. W-Y certainly wouldn't be above risking the lives of thousands of marines to use them as proxies for live weapons experiments, considering how keen they are on cutting corners with everything else.


    Commodore Lorenzo Fiore / Sergeant Callisto Fiore / Synthetic Gary
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    4th Division, 4th Brigade, 4th Aerospace Division, 1st Colonial Support Group
    THE FALLING FALCONS
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    Senior Member Madventurer's Avatar
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    My take on the points laid out:
    Some of the problems you listed can be explained at least partially by the role of the people using them.

    Marines are not exactly highly trained volunteers, so the gun should be made on a budget and thus not be of the optimal design. Secondly, they operate on spaceships, which tend to have problems with storage space (see real life submarines and cost of launching stuff to space), so it makes sense to have the gun be a bit boxy, and more importantly, the ammunition itself can be stored in smaller volume. Extra space from casings stacks up fast when you go to the tens of thousands of rounds.

    As for the role, marines are get-in, get-out, don't-overstay kind of troops. Their numbers are rather low by the nature of space vessels compared to any contemporary military force, but their job is not to fight a war, but a battle. They generally won't be deployed for long or without their ship as support, thus they have easy access to maintenance for the weaponry. The short range usually doesn't matter either, since engagement range is usually shorter, assuming marines are used to assault locations instead of sieging places. I would also imagine boarding action is part of their role, where caseless ammunition is definitely a bonus for reasons stated in first post.

    End result: M41A is a gun that does quite well in its role of a short-range shock trooper's assault weapon, but it's designed for that specific niche and the problems start to show if you take it outside. It's sufficient, but by no means great.
    Tyson 'Bunny' Sphere


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    As for the electronic firing pin, I've seen contemporary guns which just use ohmic resistors as primers, and the 'firing pin' as an inductor that causes the resistor to heat up to the point that it ignites the propellant.

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    Member BurnedSweetPotato's Avatar
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    gun kills aliens... gun good...
    beast

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    ammo is caseless because if we rendered all the fucking casing all unga made during the round... god help us

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    metal stick shoot fire rocks

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    Actually. Inside the M41A is a battery stored inside the handle that is good for 3000 rounds before needing to be changed which powers the firing pin, and is also charged by being plugged into the marine vendors , atleast according to stuff I've read.

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    Whitelisted Captain ScreamingIdiot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim_inc View Post
    Actually. Inside the M41A is a battery stored inside the handle that is good for 3000 rounds before needing to be changed which powers the firing pin, and is also charged by being plugged into the marine vendors , atleast according to stuff I've read.
    I feel like this'd make more sense if the Aliens universe wasn't reliant upon shitty 70s tech (like in Alien: Isolation), considering that miniaturization is a key component of advanced computational hardware.
    Wouldn't make sense for marines to use tiny ultra-batteries with minimal additional hardware on their guns while they also use floppy disks and polaroid cameras.


    Commodore Lorenzo Fiore / Sergeant Callisto Fiore / Synthetic Gary
    __________________________________________________ ______________
    4th Division, 4th Brigade, 4th Aerospace Division, 1st Colonial Support Group
    THE FALLING FALCONS
    USS ALMAYER

    Part of the CO council. PM me for any and all CO related needs and I'll help you along.

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