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Thread: 10x24 ammo: AP vs Normal, The biggest lie given to Marines.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattAtlas View Post
    So what are you actually trying to say here?
    That AP is better than normal rounds in every single way contrary to statements made in changelogs and by devs.

    Doing a little *clarification in the forum where nobody will see that you've said "well no, actually normal rounds aren't better than AP despite "doing more damage" and you should just use AP until we've re-coded the entire ballistics and armor system weeks/months from now" doesn't mean that you've kept the information open and the playerbase infomed.

    Hence, this is what gets called an "open secret" or an "unwritten rule" and only people who are familiar with the game actually know that despite what the wiki might say, or what the changelog might say, normal M41 rounds are not worth using if you can use AP instead.

    Part of this also comes out of a direct intention by the dev team to obfuscate solid numbers on what works and what doesn't work, presumably to prevent metagaming and optimization for the combat system - but in reality if you had a decently structured combat system this information wouldn't matter: Some things would be good at particulars that other things are not, simply due to how they work; e.g. shotguns work at short range but not at long range. This means you get people using shotguns, AND you get people using M41's. The numbers don't matter so much because how these weapons are used determines whether a player uses them.

    The only thing the intentional obfuscation of numbers achieves is hiding what this thread is actually talking about right now: Things like M41 normal ammo being worse in every condition than M41 AP ammo, and while you can claim all you want that this isn't an "open secret" there has been a concerted effort by the dev team to stay away from telling players specifics about balance while only letting privileged people (e.g. friends, people in discord) have hints or facts on the numbers.

    I don't really care/agree/disagree with how the dev team handles it. There's pros and cons, and it's not a big enough deal for me to kick a fuss about.
    But acting like this isn't how it is and that the team is actually open about how everything works really got my goat here.

  2. #12
    Whitelisted Predator MattAtlas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boersgard View Post
    That AP is better than normal rounds in every single way contrary to statements made in changelogs and by devs.

    Doing a little *clarification in the forum where nobody will see that you've said "well no, actually normal rounds aren't better than AP despite "doing more damage" and you should just use AP until we've re-coded the entire ballistics and armor system weeks/months from now" doesn't mean that you've kept the information open and the playerbase infomed.

    Hence, this is what gets called an "open secret" or an "unwritten rule" and only people who are familiar with the game actually know that despite what the wiki might say, or what the changelog might say, normal M41 rounds are not worth using if you can use AP instead.

    Part of this also comes out of a direct intention by the dev team to obfuscate solid numbers on what works and what doesn't work, presumably to prevent metagaming and optimization for the combat system - but in reality if you had a decently structured combat system this information wouldn't matter: Some things would be good at particulars that other things are not, simply due to how they work; e.g. shotguns work at short range but not at long range. This means you get people using shotguns, AND you get people using M41's. The numbers don't matter so much because how these weapons are used determines whether a player uses them.

    The only thing the intentional obfuscation of numbers achieves is hiding what this thread is actually talking about right now: Things like M41 normal ammo being worse in every condition than M41 AP ammo, and while you can claim all you want that this isn't an "open secret" there has been a concerted effort by the dev team to stay away from telling players specifics about balance while only letting privileged people (e.g. friends, people in discord) have hints or facts on the numbers.

    I don't really care/agree/disagree with how the dev team handles it. There's pros and cons, and it's not a big enough deal for me to kick a fuss about.
    But acting like this isn't how it is and that the team is actually open about how everything works really got my goat here.
    All this information I've said is available on the public Discord. If you don't want to use it, that's on you.
    Resident ex-punished Junior Developer and Coder, and ex three-time member of the Yautja Council, two-time member of the Synth Council.

    See with your eyes, my army of flies, when no one's alive...

  3. #13
    Senior Moderator Dorkkeli's Avatar
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    I thought that this was obvious
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  4. #14
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    Hi

    Thanks to our armor system (I know I know... stop talking about it Neth, and go fix it), Damage IS armor penetration.

    Before Matt did some necessary debuffing of normal rounds, they were doing more damage than AP.

    What needs to be understood is that every time we debuff normal round's actual damage by 10%, we actually reducing its damage by 20% due to how armor works.

    We tried to make Normal ammo useful in a different way (buffing projectile speed, buffing accuracy) but in reality, the only thing people want is damage.

    So I guess wait for new armor system...

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boersgard View Post
    I don't really care/agree/disagree with how the dev team handles it. There's pros and cons, and it's not a big enough deal for me to kick a fuss about.
    But acting like this isn't how it is and that the team is actually open about how everything works really got my goat here.
    we have to work with code that is very hard to make it do what we want without completely ditching systems (which we are doing)

    When we reduce damage by X%, we expect it to do exactly that. Instead it reduces damage by 2X% or even more
    When we buff normal rounds by X%, suddenly they are "kill-all" bullets and we get tons of ahelps from predators that are dying in a single burst

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattAtlas View Post
    All this information I've said is available on the public Discord. If you don't want to use it, that's on you.
    lmao, bud that's like the fine print on a contract, "if you file form 23B with the head office between 2 and 9pm only on tuesdays, and pay the $30 filing fee, you can gain access to the necessary information". Just because the data exists somewhere doesn't mean it's necessarily accessible.

    Do you actually expect people to download all the discord logs and dig through them, line by line, to find out what's been said by devs off-hand about balance? (For that matter do you want people reading every little thing you've said in discord???) I'm in the discord and there's a ton of balance discussions I miss simply because I'm not around, so just being in the discord itself isn't enough, I would actually have to dig through logs as well if I wanted to catch everything.

    The vast majority of the playerbase will never join the discord channel. Information that is exclusively available on discord is "semi-public" at best. When you put the details in the wiki or changelog, then you are beginning to make it publicly accessible as you're actually publishing it somewhere. But telling people to just lmao dig through the discord logs...

    I'm going to re-iterate what I've said before:

    1. The specifics of balance and game design are opaque to the playerbase
    2. This is by intent, the development team doesn't want the playerbase to have this information for metagaming/optimizing reasons
    3. Some of the publicly available information (such as the changelog stating that normal rounds are better than AP rounds) is incorrect/misleading (hence why someone started this thread)
    4. The only way for the playerbase to know this is by reading threads like this one, talking to people who play the game, or playing the game themselves. Reading documentation will actually misinform them

    And then, suppose someone listens to what you've said here and starts digging through discord logs and taking things you or someone else has said in the discord as absolute truths and presenting them out of context? Right away I can already see statements to the effect of: "What is said on discord isn't published information and isn't necessarily how things actually are".

    Yes, there is an intentional effort to obfuscate details of the code. That's part of why the code isn't publicly accessible in the first place. No, I agree with you that there isn't any particular effort to hide the fact that normal M41 bullets are worse than AP M41 bullets, but that specific information still falls under the general umbrella of keeping the code out of the hands of the playerbase. Again, I don't even care that this is what you guys chose to do, I'm just pointing out that your implication of this information being publicly accessible isn't how it is in reality.

    IMO the best solution is to create a bug report on the issue tracker, "normal m41 does less damage than AP" or something, and then it's documented - the wiki can point to the bug report and mention that normal rounds are currently less effective than AP, and players trying to read documentation will then find out how it really works right now without having to play 300 hours first. It furthermore establishes that this is not the intended behaviour of the normal vs ap rounds and gives the devs a way of tracking how/when it's fixed. (e.g. 'to be done when ballistic/armor rework is finished')

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkkeli View Post
    I thought that this was obvious
    It's only obvious to people familiar with the game. I would think THAT would be obvious. New players who read the changelog or wiki will be getting information about AP vs Normal M41 ammo that is actually not true in practice in the game.

  7. #17
    Senior Moderator Dorkkeli's Avatar
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    Real gucci and hidden meta is to pickup macro a fireaxe or telebaton and Kite kite kite kite.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Swagbag's Avatar
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    1. The specifics of balance and game design are opaque to the playerbase
    2. This is by intent, the development team doesn't want the playerbase to have this information for metagaming/optimizing reasons
    3. Some of the publicly available information (such as the changelog stating that normal rounds are better than AP rounds) is incorrect/misleading (hence why someone started this thread)
    4. The only way for the playerbase to know this is by reading threads like this one, talking to people who play the game, or playing the game themselves. Reading documentation will actually misinform them
    This was my problem with Spookydonut. The whole M41A mag not fitting in the backpack, satchel and how he nerfed buckshot to the point where I made a thread about it and he shut down before admitting in town hall he reduced the damage too much. As WELL as closing down threads after the whole M41A mag thread he got livid about and restricting all discussion to an update thread in order to easily dismiss posts. On top of this, the devs and changelog back in 2016 / early 2017 would put NEARLY EVERYTHING in the changelog, even stating how long 6u of hyperzine would last in the changelog for example. But now there's a strict "we can't give numbers" which is understandable, but you are using this as a facade to hide some meta gaming in my opinion which is good, but also just to implement stealth nerfs, this needs to change or brought up in townhall and not dismissed.

    EDIT: I will bring up some pictures of the 2016 changelogs as an example of how many things were shown in the changelog.
    Last edited by Swagbag; 04-12-2019 at 08:24 PM.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Swagbag's Avatar
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    Example 1



    EDIT: Example 2
    Last edited by Swagbag; 04-12-2019 at 08:23 PM.

  10. #20
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    when there's no AP m41 ammo left i usually get a slug shotgun, since it's actually easier to kill t3s with it lole

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