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Thread: So you evolved into a crusher..

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Ravs always take the biggest chunk of T3 slots. 4 Ravs in 1 to 3 ratio means something about 12 marines. 4 specs + Command is less that 12 marines.
    Besides, Queen is already immune to fire.

    If Ravs wouldn't be immune to fire, they usually wouldn't die because of it since they are supposed to be supported by boilers and vomitors and everyone priotirize helping T3's over lesser benos.
    Classic Inversion.

    Acid castes don't have to get close, that's their main gig, they don't have to be close, because they deal ranged damage.
    they don't always, sometimes its boilers or crushers
    even if there more ravs than other t3s,
    i dunno what you mean by the 1 to 3 ratio

    even if there are as many ravs as specs, the ravs dont have their combined utility so its still uneven, more to balancing than just numbers

    ravs job is hampered by flames dealing them damage, period, they are not bulky enough to take anything more than tickle damage from it, (also OOC it would prevent newer players from trying to fight in fire because it hurts, I mean even these days some ravs are scared of fire) and they need to stop it from being utilized so ubiquitously by the opposing side as it really fucks up xenos in general

    queens job is not ravs job, her flame immunity exists just to prevent her lighting up as she gets chased down due to being the highest prio target, she has better things to do then deal with a dude that has a flamethrower
    if you were a marine with this 'antineuro' armor, you would not want there to be a reduced % chance for the neuro to hit you, you would want 100% immunity

    fire (unlike acid attacks) has the utility of being able to be useful outside of directly attacking xenos, this is what I meant by 'flaming everything else'
    -you can use it to deny xeno attacks at reinforced positions with support for a very long time, because they will just refuse to pass through it
    -you can use it to clear weeds/sticky, giving light ahead and making xenos back off
    -and fire also performs the same sort of role when a queen screeches/attempts to screech, it denies everyone else from following her and significantly waters down the power of that push by the xenos (fire watering down lol)

    vomiters are on par rarer than T3s, and they are by far easier to deal with than any of them

    neuro means they have to get close enough, combined with their low speed/being chased down to be in a dangerous range

    going back to what you said in a previous post made me think about how ravs are immune to 1 type of spec (pyro) and with the acid armor buff specs would be immune to 1 type of t3 (prae) just putting that out there

  2. #32
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reuben owen View Post
    they don't always, sometimes its boilers or crushers
    even if there more ravs than other t3s,
    i dunno what you mean by the 1 to 3 ratio

    even if there are as many ravs as specs, the ravs dont have their combined utility so its still uneven, more to balancing than just numbers

    ravs job is hampered by flames dealing them damage, period, they are not bulky enough to take anything more than tickle damage from it, (also OOC it would prevent newer players from trying to fight in fire because it hurts, I mean even these days some ravs are scared of fire) and they need to stop it from being utilized so ubiquitously by the opposing side as it really fucks up xenos in general

    queens job is not ravs job, her flame immunity exists just to prevent her lighting up as she gets chased down due to being the highest prio target, she has better things to do then deal with a dude that has a flamethrower
    if you were a marine with this 'antineuro' armor, you would not want there to be a reduced % chance for the neuro to hit you, you would want 100% immunity

    fire (unlike acid attacks) has the utility of being able to be useful outside of directly attacking xenos, this is what I meant by 'flaming everything else'
    -you can use it to deny xeno attacks at reinforced positions with support for a very long time, because they will just refuse to pass through it
    -you can use it to clear weeds/sticky, giving light ahead and making xenos back off
    -and fire also performs the same sort of role when a queen screeches/attempts to screech, it denies everyone else from following her and significantly waters down the power of that push by the xenos (fire watering down lol)

    vomiters are on par rarer than T3s, and they are by far easier to deal with than any of them

    neuro means they have to get close enough, combined with their low speed/being chased down to be in a dangerous range

    going back to what you said in a previous post made me think about how ravs are immune to 1 type of spec (pyro) and with the acid armor buff specs would be immune to 1 type of t3 (prae) just putting that out there
    There is always more Ravs than boilers, crushers and preatorians thanks to their damage, speed, HP pool, armor and fire immunity. The most brainless beno to pick from. All you have to do is just go somewhere, click on marine, then click one more time in the direction of a marine and retreat. You don't have to take fire into consideration, all you have to worry about is that your HP is high enough to escape (and you can easly, because your pounce can be also used as fast teleport if not aimed at marine).

    1 to 3 ratio is how many benos is there supposed to be compared to the PFC's/Specs/SG's/SL's marines. If there is 90 combat marines, then 30 benos is close to "cap number" where no more benos can spawn (burst, or unburrow).

    Maybe ravs don't have combined utility, but have you ever seen more than 2 specs working together on the exact same screen? Rarerly. Have you seen PFC evolve to Spec after one died (besides DEFCON 2, that doesn't matter anyway, if marines reached it, then they already winning)? Ravs are a Jack of all Trades.

    What better job Queen has than to deal with marine with flamethrower? Deal with marine with Pulse Rifle? Deal with marine with M39?
    If I could get "Anti-Spit 100%" armor on daily basis, then I would wear it only untill benos would lost their 100% immunity to fire. Then I would refuse to wear it ever again. Armor that would completly block spits that hit from one (front) direction would be fair however. If beno want to neuro me, he has to try to trick me, maybe rush a bit to force me to step back, exposing "neuroable" side etc. I'm all about being fair.

    You can't really use normal flame to block paths for benos, as it deals very little damage. Elder Sentinel at full health can safely walk on one tile of fire, spit at you, drag you on fire and then escape, ressist the flame and heal about a minute to be at 100% again.

    Benos can shit out sticky and weeds faster than flamer can shoot and benos regenerate plasma, my fuel tank doesn't.

    Benos can extinguish flames, marines can't "resist" Queen's Screech. Flames and Screech aren't comparable at any level.

    Vomiters might be rarer, but one, or two is enough, add Boilers and Preatorian who can also extinguish flames and you have like atleast 5 benos who can reliably extinguish flames.

    Sentinel is fast enough to run 5-4 tiles in front of you, spit, slash few times and then escape. No marine (even with light armor) is faster than Elder Sentinel.

    Going back to what I said in previous post: Ravs are completly immune to one spec, every PFC/SL/Engi with flamer, Flaming OB, Tank with flamer, Incendiary Ammunition etc. While no marine is even "resistant" to any beno ability. How fair is that?
    CABAL: CM's angel Marine main and the only non-staff that does nothing. Even though I love you all, I still hate you.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    There is always more Ravs than boilers, crushers and preatorians thanks to their damage, speed, HP pool, armor and fire immunity.
    While there may initially be many ravagers, they will be attritioned hard. For example, in one round the hive lost five ravagers, most of which were elder. Other T3s also get attritioned, but Boilers tend to survive the longest because they are on the back line.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    The most brainless beno to pick from. All you have to do is just go somewhere, click on marine, then click one more time in the direction of a marine and retreat. You don't have to take fire into consideration, all you have to worry about is that your HP is high enough to escape (and you can easly, because your pounce can be also used as fast teleport if not aimed at marine).
    While this may be the basic premise, it is quite a simplification. If you don't want to find yourself dead to some shotgun berserker, especially with the MOUS around, you need to learn which marine has the potential to chunk you super quickly. About lunge, if you don't initiate with it you WILL take damage provided you're not facing a rambo.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    1 to 3 ratio is how many benos is there supposed to be compared to the PFC's/Specs/SG's/SL's marines. If there is 90 combat marines, then 30 benos is close to "cap number" where no more benos can spawn (burst, or unburrow).
    This number was what the game used to be balanced around, the fact that there would not initially be many xenos until marines started dying. This isn't meant as a cap as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Maybe ravs don't have combined utility, but have you ever seen more than 2 specs working together on the exact same screen? Rarerly. Have you seen PFC evolve to Spec after one died (besides DEFCON 2, that doesn't matter anyway, if marines reached it, then they already winning)? Ravs are a Jack of all Trades.
    PFCs get kits, allowing for a lot of customization or extra goodies. A mini sniper, a mini medic, etc, most are really good options. T3s need replacements as they are the core of a xeno force, and it's not too uncommon to see xenos go to a spiral of death where losing T3s --> Queen unovies --> No more T3s after a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post

    What better job Queen has than to deal with marine with flamethrower? Deal with marine with Pulse Rifle? Deal with marine with M39?
    Queen's are immune to fire otherwise a single flamer PFC could block off an entire xeno push.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    If I could get "Anti-Spit 100%" armor on daily basis, then I would wear it only untill benos would lost their 100% immunity to fire. Then I would refuse to wear it ever again. Armor that would completly block spits that hit from one (front) direction would be fair however. If beno want to neuro me, he has to try to trick me, maybe rush a bit to force me to step back, exposing "neuroable" side etc. I'm all about being fair.
    This is coming in with armor rework. Ranged stuns exist to counter shotguns otherwise there would be a lot more shotgun usage. There shouldn't be the option to make an entire caste basically obsolete (sentinel/spitter) when marines outnumber xenos. If it was the other way around, sure, but not currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    You can't really use normal flame to block paths for benos, as it deals very little damage. Elder Sentinel at full health can safely walk on one tile of fire, spit at you, drag you on fire and then escape, ressist the flame and heal about a minute to be at 100% again.
    This is also something I find pretty weird, although you have to keep in mind that if a T1/T2 gets set on fire and tries to run backwards, they will take massive amounts of damage already. You can block off corridors, but you need 4-5 tiles of fire to tell each xeno that they will lose ~30% of their health just engaging which makes it a terrible idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Benos can shit out sticky and weeds faster than flamer can shoot and benos regenerate plasma, my fuel tank doesn't.
    Xenos can make defenses quickly, yes, although marines tend to go through said fortifications quite easily. Flamer PFCs get ~350u of fuel base now, which is plenty. A good req will also be resupplying marines.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Benos can extinguish flames, marines can't "resist" Queen's Screech. Flames and Screech aren't comparable at any level.
    I think Reuben meant that a flamer cutting off the rest of the xenos pushing with a queen can make the queen's screech significantly less powerful. That is actually a great tactic unless the queen just screeches right then and there and drags you into the fire. I've done that plenty of times.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Vomiters might be rarer, but one, or two is enough, add Boilers and Preatorian who can also extinguish flames and you have like atleast 5 benos who can reliably extinguish flames.
    That's only true when you are with support. If you roam as a xeno and get set on fire, you are going to die. -40% health initially + 5% damage per 5 seconds regardless of anything else is scary enough. Someone said that they didn't want to balance fire around there always being a xeno ready to extinguish you, as there often isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Sentinel is fast enough to run 5-4 tiles in front of you, spit, slash few times and then escape. No marine (even with light armor) is faster than Elder Sentinel.
    If it's a group of 3 marines, experienced PFCs will meet that sentinel with a shotgun and either kill or gravely wound it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Going back to what I said in previous post: Ravs are completly immune to one spec, every PFC/SL/Engi with flamer, Flaming OB, Tank with flamer, Incendiary Ammunition etc. While no marine is even "resistant" to any beno ability. How fair is that?
    Ravagers are immune to fire to prevent stalemates. Marines may not be resistant to any xeno ability specifically, but they get advantages. It's called asymmetric balance.
    Cameron Richard, a very robust support player and xeno.

  4. #34
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    While there may initially be many ravagers, they will be attritioned hard. For example, in one round the hive lost five ravagers, most of which were elder. Other T3s also get attritioned, but Boilers tend to survive the longest because they are on the back line.
    While there may be only 4 specsk, they will be attritioned hard. For example, in one round Marines lost all specs. Over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    While this may be the basic premise, it is quite a simplification. If you don't want to find yourself dead to some shotgun berserker, especially with the MOUS around, you need to learn which marine has the potential to chunk you super quickly. About lunge, if you don't initiate with it you WILL take damage provided you're not facing a rambo.
    That's what exactly every other beno has to be "aware", while Rav has to be only aware of that. The most brainless caste to pick from. MOU was at first fixed (overlooked "feature" of bypassing armor) and then nerfed. Only SADAR spec and very lucky double MOU marine have a chance to kill Rav quickly. Any other situation gives rav enough time to slash few times and then escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    This number was what the game used to be balanced around, the fact that there would not initially be many xenos until marines started dying. This isn't meant as a cap as far as I know.
    Was and most likey still is. Benos got cap on roundstart marines and then they burst if they kill marines, or die themselfs. You won't find more than 50 benos if there isn't 200 marines around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    PFCs get kits, allowing for a lot of customization or extra goodies. A mini sniper, a mini medic, etc, most are really good options. T3s need replacements as they are the core of a xeno force, and it's not too uncommon to see xenos go to a spiral of death where losing T3s --> Queen unovies --> No more T3s after a while.
    So what they got more customization, if all of that is inferior to a whatever benos have? Mini Medic? Bitch please, just lay on the weeds as any beno. Mini Engi? Just pick drone, or Hivelord. Mini Sniper? Why mini, when you can pick Boiler, who is better than Sniper spec.
    Specs need replacements as they are the core of a USCM force, and it's not too uncommon to see marines go to a spiral of death where losing Specs --> PFC die --> No more spec untill DEFCON 2 (That won't happen if Spec are dead for sure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    Queen's are immune to fire otherwise a single flamer PFC could block off an entire xeno push.
    Oh no! All marines are in fact fire proff and fire doesn't stop their pushes at all. Where have you seen all benos pushing from one narrow corridor? It's the only place that PFC flamer can "block".

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    This is coming in with armor rework. Ranged stuns exist to counter shotguns otherwise there would be a lot more shotgun usage. There shouldn't be the option to make an entire caste basically obsolete (sentinel/spitter) when marines outnumber xenos. If it was the other way around, sure, but not currently.
    Ranged stun existed long before anybody cried about countering shotguns. Acid spit exist to counter Shotgunners, not neuro. There is already about 50% marines who use buckshot shotguns and about 75% robust marines. I guess why? Sentinel is not obsolete, he is the main source of captures, just like Spitter, while Spitter is more frontline combat focused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    This is also something I find pretty weird, although you have to keep in mind that if a T1/T2 gets set on fire and tries to run backwards, they will take massive amounts of damage already. You can block off corridors, but you need 4-5 tiles of fire to tell each xeno that they will lose ~30% of their health just engaging which makes it a terrible idea.
    Yeah, you have to flame 1x1 corridor to really block it off, but then comes Rav who can shrug off any damage single marine can deliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    Xenos can make defenses quickly, yes, although marines tend to go through said fortifications quite easily. Flamer PFCs get ~350u of fuel base now, which is plenty. A good req will also be resupplying marines.
    Tell that to Sticky Resin. I want to see marines going trough them quicky without PFC specially equiped to flame it. And benos can shit two resins and weed node faster than flamer can shoot. In a endless road, benos would be moving much faster if they had to build defences, than marines who have to destroy them. Maybe there is plenty of fuel, but not water and you have to wait for flame to extinguish if you want to cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    I think Reuben meant that a flamer cutting off the rest of the xenos pushing with a queen can make the queen's screech significantly less powerful. That is actually a great tactic unless the queen just screeches right then and there and drags you into the fire. I've done that plenty of times.
    And Queen does that 90% of the time, while again, you can only sort of "block" push if benos are coming out only from narrow corridor. If it's something like T-Fort then I really want to see Video when single PFC flames Queen creating burning Ligne Maginot and benos don't do what Germany did with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    That's only true when you are with support. If you roam as a xeno and get set on fire, you are going to die. -40% health initially + 5% damage per 5 seconds regardless of anything else is scary enough. Someone said that they didn't want to balance fire around there always being a xeno ready to extinguish you, as there often isn't.
    Why you are not with support? Just as marines have to work together, benos should as well. Rav is no strangler to work alone. Even then Lurker and Runner gangs are common. Why fire isn't balanced around benos always ready to extinguish, but marine on fire? Fucking eat burned dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    If it's a group of 3 marines, experienced PFCs will meet that sentinel with a shotgun and either kill or gravely wound it.
    If it's group of 3 marines, experienced Sentinel will not come in range of Buckshot, he will instead spit from 5 tiles at first marine, then at second, then he will slash first and spit at him too, then he will tank some damage, then he will finaly spit again at first marine and he will escape with 30% of health.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justicer3792 View Post
    Ravagers are immune to fire to prevent stalemates. Marines may not be resistant to any xeno ability specifically, but they get advantages. It's called asymmetric balance.
    Adventages like what? Friendly Fire is considered adventage now? Bones breaking, IB, ammo, literal blindness and such are adventage too? Fuck adventages, game isn't about only winning, it's about enjoyability, test of skill etc. Great skill, evolving to rav and fucking flames left and right.
    CABAL: CM's angel Marine main and the only non-staff that does nothing. Even though I love you all, I still hate you.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    There is always more Ravs than boilers...
    as you stated fire can come from many different sources
    this is why (so many) ravs currently exist (for the sake of arguement ill agree to say there are more ravs than any other t3), it is a metagame shift, we used to have more crushers than anything, but now its partly to deal with fires ubiquitous ease of use by all the stuff you mentioned and its great application to killing xenos, and partly because people who play xeno dont wanna deal with fire, but mainly its that fire can be pressed on xenos from many sources and 1 fire immune caste would not be able to handle all that
    more fire = less crusher = more rav
    less fire = more crusher = less rav
    theres more ravs because marines use more fire, just how it is

    fire, regardless of the xeno, forces an immediate disengagement from the xeno playing if they get set on it, especially during big pushes by marines because of the potential of additional damage by guns, even if there is a caste with acid spray near they cant just stand on the frontline and wait for it to be removed by them, lit xenos are targets for marines

    no xeno (rav exluded ofc) will attempt to pass fire to damage LZ/fortified positions, they would have to pass through the fire (damage), hit the cade (more damage) and then walk back through the fire (more damage) all this while probably being shot at by an autoturret or a marine (even more damage), its just not worth the opportunity cost to hit a cade once through all that,
    getting hit by fire while attempting to hit the cades is something else entirely

    if you're alone you're disadvantaged to a xeno regardless of your weapon so it doesn't matter if you have flames or not, even if you catch them on fire in 1v1 they're still pretty likely to run away although you might be able to chase them down if they resist too close to you

    ravs can get stunned by nades unlike crushers, which while being less brainless to avoid then fire is much more likely to end in a death if caught, and is the main way id say they die

    queen does not exist to deal with flames, its just to prevent her getting flamed, which would otherwise easily cut into her large health and I meant what justicar said about how it weakens other xenos from pushing with her
    queens fire immunity exists for different purposes than ravs
    ravs is there to punish marines for using it (offensive)
    queens is there to prevent her from being punished by it (defensive) as otherwise it would decimate her

    if anything queens niche (outside of screech) is to deal with the tank (which is unaffected by screech anyway), which otherwise can handle every other xeno
    otherwise they're to break into the main fob , which is where if they break 1 cade and go in to screech, but the hole is on fire, other xenos wont follow and she'll have to retreat early

    also keep in mind that using fire as a marine is a choice, no one is stuck 'using' it (besides pyro spec but I'm sure they're fine with that because they got spec), if they dont want to deal with ravs hurting them they could use something else that can 'hurt everything' if they feel its unfair that the thing that they choose cant hurt 1 type of xeno that hurts them

    and marines can extinguish flames as well?, every marine that flames carries a flamer carriers an extinguisher these days, which lets them selfremove flames or from others

    all ammo is limited, imsorry if your flame runs out but theres plenty of fuel tanks around to use and theres almost always 1 near the main FoB to give yourself more fuel to use in defense

    lastly snipers tend to pair up with other specs by covering them as they progress forward and deterring away boilers

  6. #36
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reuben owen View Post
    snip
    Disscusion becomes to long and I'm not at work currently to have time to write long answer.

    Beno fire immunity is retarded and should be changed/removed. The end.
    Rav is the simplest beno of them all. The End.
    Assymetric Balance aims at Balance with different tools at disposal for each side. Direct counter for something in this case is retarded. The End.
    The End.
    CABAL: CM's angel Marine main and the only non-staff that does nothing. Even though I love you all, I still hate you.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Beno fire immunity is retarded and should be changed/removed. The end.
    opinion
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Rav is the simplest beno of them all. The End.
    debatable and irrelavant
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Assymetric Balance aims at Balance with different tools at disposal for each side. Direct counter for something in this case is retarded. The End.
    opinion
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    The End.
    ok
    Last edited by reuben owen; 06-25-2019 at 05:28 PM. Reason: eh

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    Heres a hint. At mature a crusher has enough plas to charge for a fair distance off weeds. You can get from eta podlocks all the way to admin and back off weeds, especially if you have regen pheros. Just dont stop in the middle of the squad like a flatbrain. run through them, and if you cant run through the entire squad and at least half a screen the otherside... dont run through. Its not hard. Too often ive seen crushers run into a squad and stop and run away after hitting the first marine or two.
    H'chak Best click clack.

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