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Thread: Can we do something about the metarushes?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanchee View Post
    i dont get it

    people that dont play marine simply cant comprehend the fact that xenos get stronger over time, we don't.
    rushing is the best strat in order to win, if you delay as a marine you die.
    Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. Due to the removal of hugger combat, Xenos have developed a crutch for burrowed larvae. Carriers are too few and far between to actually make any substantial number of captures. The result is that Xenos start out weak, reach their apex by the middle of the round once Tier 3s have upgraded sufficiently, and depending on whether they still have reserves of burrowed larvae or not, either slowly die out or manage to push back the marines. Assuming marines can out-attrition Xenos in the early to mid-game (i.e. deplete the majority of their burrowed larvae reserves whilst preventing large-scale growth in Xeno numbers), marines will always win.

    Another factor to take into account is that Xenos can only have a fixed ratio of Tier 3s to Tier 2s to Tier 1s. Xenos get "stronger over time" in a very logarithmically exponential manner, in that they'll rapidly fill out all their Tier 3 and Tier 2 slots, yet all the Xenos will then slowly upgrade. At that point the only increase in strength is from greater numbers, but again, those greater numbers can be impossible to reach if the Xenos take too many losses in the early game, and carriers are too inept (as they often are) to make up for the shortage.

    In short, marines excel at winning early or winning in protracted combat. Xenos really only have a chance if they can get a strong enough foothold by the mid-game.

  2. #12
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    Youbar is right and it's ironic.

    The issue isn't that Xenos are great at attrition. They're not. It's actually they just perform better when not maybe, you know, rushed before they can mature more.

    What ends up happening is, partly due to game design, they are unable to capture which leads to a simple situation where either they hold on and beat back the marines (on the planet at least) or die due to losing too many key Xenos.

    Marines face issues if bogged down and separated but, when it comes to attrition are actually stronger in some areas. A marine could die, but so long as there is a medic with supplies, fellow marines who aren't dead, and (sometimes) a cade line he'll be back up and at 'em again. Xenos however can't say the same. If they die, they're done for the round. This makes them, while they do hit hard, weak if in protracted combat.

    Yes they can be good in attrition, but only if in combat which isn't High Intensity for an extended period of time.
    Marines can be good in attrition, but only if it comes down to brute numbers and dmg vs the xenos' brute numbers and dmg. for an extended period of time.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChainsawMullet View Post
    Marines don't need to metarush to win at all.
    Why does winning even matter if you just meta unga the hive so that they can't oppose you with any decent force?
    What you described is also basically metarushing, which is against the rules, that's like saying Xenos should all wait at LZ1 to kill all the marines while they're stuck in the dropship, because "that's the best strat to win!"
    Waiting at LZ1 really isn't the best strat considering all xenos are young at 12:30.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanchee View Post
    i dont get it

    people that dont play marine simply cant comprehend the fact that xenos get stronger over time, we don't.
    rushing is the best strat in order to win, if you delay as a marine you die.
    Nope, not at all. Metarushes are not even a reliable strat to win. While Xenos get stronger, their brains don't improve, and there's just a handful of good Xeno players; most Xeno players just jump in a marine force by themselves and die horribly.

    Until the Spawn Pool will be implemented marines still out-attrition Xenos, thus mega-FOB's are still effective to win. Are Mega-FOB's stale and boring? Yes. But at least it's not as dumb as a 3-squad zerg-rush, or as infuriating as coordinating a 2-squad flank.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderut22 View Post
    Nope, not at all. Metarushes are not even a reliable strat to win. While Xenos get stronger, their brains don't improve, and there's just a handful of good Xeno players; most Xeno players just jump in a marine force by themselves and die horribly.

    Until the Spawn Pool will be implemented marines still out-attrition Xenos, thus mega-FOB's are still effective to win. Are Mega-FOB's stale and boring? Yes. But at least it's not as dumb as a 3-squad zerg-rush, or as infuriating as coordinating a 2-squad flank.
    were you playing the four hour big red round yesterday? That round proved all of your arguments wrong

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanchee View Post
    were you playing the four hour big red round yesterday? That round proved all of your arguments wrong
    I did not play nor observe that round. Maybe the FOB was poorly constructed or the marines forgot some barricades open; still, Mega-FOB's are way more reliable than Metarushes, especially if the FOB is of good-quality, and if you've enough marines to hold it. 3 squads can hold a decent Mega-FOB; you can even let Delta perish in their metarush. No tactic can ever ensure a 100% success rate, though. No, not even your rushes; a decent xeno force with decent defenses will kill you quickly.

    So far, every time I attempted to implement Mega-FOB tactics or simply turtling-tactics as CO, the round ended in a Marine Victory. This proves that defensive tactics are very reliable.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anderut22 View Post
    I did not play nor observe that round. Maybe the FOB was poorly constructed or the marines forgot some barricades open; still, Mega-FOB's are way more reliable than Metarushes, especially if the FOB is of good-quality, and if you've enough marines to hold it. 3 squads can hold a decent Mega-FOB; you can even let Delta perish in their metarush. No tactic can ever ensure a 100% success rate, though. No, not even your rushes; a decent xeno force with decent defenses will kill you quickly.

    So far, every time I attempted to implement Mega-FOB tactics or simply turtling-tactics as CO, the round ended in a Marine Victory. This proves that defensive tactics are very reliable.
    Mega-FOB doesn't kill smart benos. It's impossible to die as a decent beno when you are storming any kind of FOB. Only Stuns are able to kill a decent beno assaulting FOB, so smart beno will avoid them. SADAR, nades and mines. Nothing else, you just wait for boiler to shoot a gas cloud at cades, then you go there, slash cades, tank few hits and you escape at 50% of HP, just to regenerate on weeds in half of a minute. If a player dies as a beno during FOB constantly, he has to be a very unrobust person.
    Benos die reliably only when marines are chasing them, otherwise stun, or stupid beno is required.

    Mega-FOB is unreliable tactic to win the round. About 90% of FOB defences (where no marine is outside it) end up evac, or simple slaughter of marines. The reason for it is what I stated above: Health regeneration, big HP pool and many tools to break such Defences. Benos are the strongest at attack, while the weakest at defence, just as marines are.

    Everything come down to view range of 8 tiles, or less, all attackers need to be safe is to move that amount of tiles and just heal.

    MetaRushes and rules against them exist because it's the best time to attack, marines are at their prime, even DEFCON doesn't return them to the state where they are all healthy, where they have full ammo, full gear and FOB supplies. This is why benos will always outattrition marines, since each one of them is basically self-sufficient. Lurker behind enemy lines doesn't need a medic to heal him, doesn't need RO to drop plasma for him, he can't have broken bones, he can hide in the plain sight (or in darkness as every beno can) etc. All benos need is to have mobile hive and use actuall tactics that will work better than any rule, or mechanic to prevent metarush.
    I have never seen a hive being made in far east, outside caves, just behind fog and river (if gap is not present). Queen orders her benos to fight like they always do, but when marines push trough table fort and into caves. Queen can safely relocate south and keep main hive there, using tunnels for transport, while every marine still thinks that they are in caves. Here, before they will learn you are not in the caves, the round time will be 13:00 (even if marines "metarush" there).
    Last edited by CABAL; 09-17-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #18
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    Only about 10-15% of the xeno players are, right now, decent. Most Mega-FOB or turtling tactics usually go like this:

    1. Marines start manning the defenses.
    2. Xenos start assaulting. The less-experienced die to mines and stuns, the better Xenos live longer, but can still commit mistakes.
    3. At one point the hive population will reduce to about 10-15 Xenos. You can then assault the Xenos, and win.


    Marines are right now, in my opinion, way better on the defensive, and even out-attrition Xenos. That is due to ASRS shitting out metal and plasteel like there's no tomorrow, and due to DEFCON supply point-spam. On the defensive you also have CAS, Mortar and OB's to use to help you hold for longer, and bleed out the Xenos. Plus, don't get me started on the sniper.

    All of this will change once the Spawn Pool comes into play; marines will be forced to stay on the offensive and pressure the Xenos until they win, or die. But until then, and until marines will finally listen to flank suggestions and basic push/hold orders, Mega-FOB and Turtling tactics are still king.
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  9. #19
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    the argument that only dumb xenos lose rounds or lose to meta rushes or lose to mega fobs is dumb. Marines have just as many stupid players its just marines get to revive and xenos don't. My experiences align with Anderut. If marines mega fob xenos will be ground down to nothing and lose. Ya the smart xenos wont die but 10 smart xenos cant hold off 100 marines. You need 20 dumb xenos to be cannon fodder while the smart xenos do their thing. That's why mega fobs grind xenos down.

  10. #20
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    It's still just my opinion and I'm basing it on my own beno experience. As Defender Main I have never died during FoB siege. It's stupidly easy to just come to the cade, slash it time, or two, escape, heal and go back there. Hell, with Defender Strain you can go to the cades, activate foritify and just collect bullets that do 0 damage to you, or your armor, where other benos slash and do whatever.
    I don't even know how you can play beno and simply die at FOB siege outside of being stunned by accurate slug fire, or SADAR, or mine, or nade, or just never retreating when you are about 50% HP. I just simply can't understand that thing.

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