Marine Law Discussion Thread

[Rals]

I would like to suggest you to add procedure for modifying SOP (For example "Captain is required to announce any change to Standard Operating Procedure via Almayer announcement system. Standard Operating Procedure should be considered unchanged, if announcement was not made, even if Captain used headset to notify crew). It will make SOP modifications a bit less confusing.

More information about Acting Commanding Officer should be added to Marine Law(For example, on CO's page you can see, that head of department is not eligible for aCO position, if he does not have any crew in his department, but it is not stated in Marine Law. What MPs are supposed to do, if someone is refusing to become aCO? Can CE order SO to do something, if SO is an aCO and CE is not eligible for aCO position? If CO deploys, who is in charge of operation, CO groundside or XO shipside?) Additionally I think, that MPs should be able to arrest aCO and CO for capital crimes (Such as Jailbreak) without waiting for HC approval, but with duty to fax HC after arrest.

What MPs are supposed to do, if CMP accepts appeal of prisoner, who, in fact, commited crime? (e.g. There is only one evidence: arresting MP testimony, and CMP decided not to fully trust MP. From MP's point of view, CMP is comiting jailbreak by releasing prisoner, who has commited crime, but from CMP's point of view, he is merely accepting appeal of wrongfully arrested marine).

Line "Only one charge may be applied per person, per unlawful event, except Resisting Arrest which can be optionally added on to any charge." should be modified to "Only one charge may be applied per person, per unlawful event, except Resisting Arrest and Neglect of Duty which can be optionally added on to any charge of enlisted marine and commisioned officer respectively.", since current bariant creates a bit confusing situation, in my ophinion (i.e. "Charges" say, that only Resisting arrest may be apllied on top of regular charges, but NoD law say, that NoD can be added to charges of commisoned officer).

I think, that information about differences between aCMP and CMP, and information about MP deployment (that is, who can authorise such deployment, or procedure for authorisation of MP deployment) should be added too.

COs, in my ophinion, should not be able to lower time of arrested marines below minimum time for crime.

Last thing I want to say is, that insult to commisioned officers should be treated more harshly. I agree, that previous "Disrespecting a superior officer" charge was too harsh but I think, that if marine says "Hey, you are retard" to CO in front of whole batallion, he should not be just warned. I think, that in case of insult to commisioned officer, MPs should be able to skip first step (Verbal warning or NJP) and be able to jump to second or even third step (5 and ten minutes respectively).

[Cakey]

Update brig cells to be a selection of crimes committed and number of offences so that it isn't arbitrary anymore :thinking:

Also remove 1-hour execution clause.

[Casada_Radio]

So I have been thinking about this, how about you introduce like some infraction note system where for minor to unstated crimes you write like a paper note on the marine for said infractions.

For example, the marine is not wearing a helmet. Now ICly it makes no sense for a marine to go planetside without a helmet and it can amount to punishment for not wearing standard gear. But of course OOCly players want to show off their rambo hairstyles and SS13 given hairstyles, and there have been issues implementing this strict ruling. So instead of leaving this gap around, have this note infraction system as a form of RP avenue for MPs and CIC roles to 'punish' marines. The weight of the punishment is nothing more than RP reasons, such as deduction of pay, insurance scheme removal, promotion denial, etc. That way, brig time won't be the only solution to deal with marines. Now marines can argue for their paycheck back.

In short, the punishment is only RP punishment of shame and humiliation without brig time, with MPs given the right to shame the dignity and honor of marines. So COs dont have to say brig them for not wearing a helmet.

Also

This is correct. That being said, there is the fact that there is an IC logic to doing it; this was discussed and we will be seeing about provisions barring that sort of thing, either in ML itself or in SOP. Wouldn�t be too hard to come up with some sort of IC justification on why not to arrest them, so that�s what we may do.

How about you establish a standard roleplay story where only 'selected' criminals live. Like political prisoners, financial criminals, vandals, space hooligans, falsely imprisoned civilians, etc. It's really hard to justify letting a murderer or serial rapist to walk around the Almayer with civilians onboard. So why not kill them story wise?

Other thoughts

I find that through many of the player reports as well as onsite mod handling that people tend to get confused about procedures, especially for mutiny, sending MPs planetside and BE. These are primary problems. My opinion on this is that the wording of Marine Law is rather...complex. Complex in that without legal jargon used, you have to have a mind of someone who had basic legal education or have good comprehension of the English language to understand what on earth that was being said. Not to mention you have to read the appeals and player/staff reports to understand how the law is interpreted.

Compare ML to Surgery, Chemistry, Medicine, Construction and Engineering page. Most ingredients and step procedures are simplified. Just simple amount math and step 1 > step 2 > step 3.

While I think it is already way more simplified from actual legal case laws and statutes and I do think that was not wasted effort there, I still think we have to consider:
-Those whose English is not their first language
-At the age below 20
-Those who don't really do well in this language and legal things
-Those who just got back from school/work and are too tired to properly implement ML

My solution, which I think may be not so ideal or practical, is to simplify it further. But that is the only solution I can think of now. So these are just my thoughts

[RIPEPLUMSTOEAT]

I second this, they should just have a list of crimes that a prisoner must have committed to qualify for execution. You shouldn't be eligible for execution because you punched somebody in the req line and then ran when MPs came

[Watts-Amitt0]

I'd like to see possibly less OOC restrictions on MPs.
I've never had a report written up on my character and I play MP and medic almost exclusively. With that being said I'd say it shows my adherence to ML and the rules and I'd say I'm fair. I try to treat all personnel with respect u until I'm treated differently.
So many times I've been jumped by marines for conducting a lawful arrest or ordered by command which you are bound to carry out.ive been straight up murdered in improper escalation instances and generally just been spit on and snubbed by the masses for the audacity of wanting to play MP.
In what military in the world is it acceptable to run up to an NCO as a private and scream in his face calling him a retard and threatening to blow his brains out?

In reality you would be dragged to the brig and likely have the absolute living shit beaten out you.
The idea that MPs have to put up with so much abuse and vitriol and abuse from salty players for doing the role is absurd.
Having to listen to so much crap and being forced to treat mouthy insubordinate pfcs as gentle as bunnies is starting to wear on my nerves.
Rather beat you in your cell until you piss blood and then have you spend the next 10 minutes in medbay to think about maybe not being so rude next time you deal with a higher ranking marine on the ship.
Then you would have actual cause to complain about MP abuse or power trips instead of just making things up.

[RIPEPLUMSTOEAT]

Totally, right now MPs are basically military law personified and that's boring as hell. You basically have 2 kinds; 1) I'm going to be kinda loose and give warnings before punishments and 2) I'm going to set max timers for everything and actively try to execute people. I say let them break marine law and in turn face the consequences, the only exception being the CMP to maintain a degree of order worst case scenario.

[spookydonut]

Requiring faxes to high command is pointless since staff usually dont reply to faxes in a timely fashion, just change it out to an admin help with the proviso that staff need to reply in under 5 minutes (any answer is better than no answer)

[MasterShakeEZ]

state exactly what the punishment for a crime is and leave no options whatsoever in the sentence. Its bullshit that someone can give you max timers just cause they don't like you on every little thing they can come up with. It shouldn't be 5-10 minutes it should just be 5 or 10 minutes not a choice.

[awan]

I would like to suggest you to add procedure for modifying SOP (For example "Captain is required to announce any change to Standard Operating Procedure via Almayer announcement system. Standard Operating Procedure should be considered unchanged, if announcement was not made, even if Captain used headset to notify crew). It will make SOP modifications a bit less confusing.

More information about Acting Commanding Officer should be added to Marine Law(For example, on CO's page you can see, that head of department is not eligible for aCO position, if he does not have any crew in his department, but it is not stated in Marine Law. What MPs are supposed to do, if someone is refusing to become aCO? Can CE order SO to do something, if SO is an aCO and CE is not eligible for aCO position? If CO deploys, who is in charge of operation, CO groundside or XO shipside?) Additionally I think, that MPs should be able to arrest aCO and CO for capital crimes (Such as Jailbreak) without waiting for HC approval, but with duty to fax HC after arrest.

What MPs are supposed to do, if CMP accepts appeal of prisoner, who, in fact, commited crime? (e.g. There is only one evidence: arresting MP testimony, and CMP decided not to fully trust MP. From MP's point of view, CMP is comiting jailbreak by releasing prisoner, who has commited crime, but from CMP's point of view, he is merely accepting appeal of wrongfully arrested marine).

Line "Only one charge may be applied per person, per unlawful event, except Resisting Arrest which can be optionally added on to any charge." should be modified to "Only one charge may be applied per person, per unlawful event, except Resisting Arrest and Neglect of Duty which can be optionally added on to any charge of enlisted marine and commisioned officer respectively.", since current bariant creates a bit confusing situation, in my ophinion (i.e. "Charges" say, that only Resisting arrest may be apllied on top of regular charges, but NoD law say, that NoD can be added to charges of commisoned officer).

I think, that information about differences between aCMP and CMP, and information about MP deployment (that is, who can authorise such deployment, or procedure for authorisation of MP deployment) should be added too.

COs, in my ophinion, should not be able to lower time of arrested marines below minimum time for crime.

Last thing I want to say is, that insult to commisioned officers should be treated more harshly. I agree, that previous "Disrespecting a superior officer" charge was too harsh but I think, that if marine says "Hey, you are retard" to CO in front of whole batallion, he should not be just warned. I think, that in case of insult to commisioned officer, MPs should be able to skip first step (Verbal warning or NJP) and be able to jump to second or even third step (5 and ten minutes respectively).

Ill go by this point by point.
In general I am going to try and get the council to go over this entire forum topic. But I will state my opinion here beforehand for good discussion.

1. SOP will be reworked but atm please start with marine law. I am trying very hard to keep everything inside a smaller scope so it's not revisiting stuff 5000 times.
While I did add modifying sop as a right we will in the future link to the sop page and explain how to do so and what can be changed there.
2. You made this into 2 things so ill do those on their own. (The aco bit)
2.1 Ill have to discuss that specific rule with the council. And ill ask for something on this to be added. (The you cannot be aCO if you dept is empty.)
2.2 In general my proposal was that anything you can fax for as mp you can ahelp for permission for. In general I feel that that would already lower the bar a bit.

3. This situation should not happen. As is the cmp is the one who is responsible for the charges. Depending on how obvious it is and who did the appeal you can do one of the following. The cmp not following appeals procedure is an ooc rulebreak thus you can contact staff so staff can investigate. The CO not doing so is not an ooc rulebreak but you do need hc permission to arrest them if needed. Hence you should contact staff. Anyone else doing an appeal can in theory always be brigged for neglect of duty if they do not follow procedure. A procedure that states when you can declare someone innocent.

4. I get your point here. Because a single action is one crime. Ill try to re-word this a lot better as well. Because there are some things that are still ambigious.

5. When you can deploy is something I feel should go into SOP.

6. Lowering the time below the minimum is already a right a CO has in the current marine law. In general all rights granted to the CO are expected to be used to benefit the round. I feel that this can be used to do so. And hence unless I see actual abuse of the provision going unpunished I am not against leaving it in.

7. Ill be very clear honest and direct here. I have had people say that they had to read both charges 3 times to understand when to apply the higher one.
And there is officers out there with toes so long it's nearly impossible not to step on them. Because of this I myself prefer it to be a bit less harsh. There is still other tools to deal with this. Like an njp, BE or by using the up the punishment clause.

Update brig cells to be a selection of crimes committed and number of offences so that it isn't arbitrary anymore :thinking:

Also remove 1-hour execution clause.

I would love to see that on brig cells. If that is what I think it is.
And there is still ways to get a punishment over an hour. Mostly through resisting arrest.

So I have been thinking about this, how about you introduce like some infraction note system where for minor to unstated crimes you write like a paper note on the marine for said infractions.

For example, the marine is not wearing a helmet. Now ICly it makes no sense for a marine to go planetside without a helmet and it can amount to punishment for not wearing standard gear. But of course OOCly players want to show off their rambo hairstyles and SS13 given hairstyles, and there have been issues implementing this strict ruling. So instead of leaving this gap around, have this note infraction system as a form of RP avenue for MPs and CIC roles to 'punish' marines. The weight of the punishment is nothing more than RP reasons, such as deduction of pay, insurance scheme removal, promotion denial, etc. That way, brig time won't be the only solution to deal with marines. Now marines can argue for their paycheck back.

In short, the punishment is only RP punishment of shame and humiliation without brig time, with MPs given the right to shame the dignity and honor of marines. So COs dont have to say brig them for not wearing a helmet.

There is an infraction system for insub at this time. I feel we are 100% smarter to see how well that goes. And if that works like intended we can expand upon it. But doing that for all minor crimes goes a bit far at this time in my opinion. Since if there are issues those are contained to one crime now. So 1. Issues that only apply to some crimes do not show yet. and 2. It is easier to deal with the

Next up. Like I said before. Prisoner survivors will specificly be mentioned in sop with a mention to not brig them just because they were a prisoner.
So, can we await discussing those until the sop changes come?

Other thoughts

I find that through many of the player reports as well as onsite mod handling that people tend to get confused about procedures, especially for mutiny, sending MPs planetside and BE. These are primary problems. My opinion on this is that the wording of Marine Law is rather...complex. Complex in that without legal jargon used, you have to have a mind of someone who had basic legal education or have good comprehension of the English language to understand what on earth that was being said. Not to mention you have to read the appeals and player/staff reports to understand how the law is interpreted.

Compare ML to Surgery, Chemistry, Medicine, Construction and Engineering page. Most ingredients and step procedures are simplified. Just simple amount math and step 1 > step 2 > step 3.

While I think it is already way more simplified from actual legal case laws and statutes and I do think that was not wasted effort there, I still think we have to consider:
-Those whose English is not their first language
-At the age below 20
-Those who don't really do well in this language and legal things
-Those who just got back from school/work and are too tired to properly implement ML

My solution, which I think may be not so ideal or practical, is to simplify it further. But that is the only solution I can think of now. So these are just my thoughts

The procedure for appeals has a checklist on how to do them.
I feel that the mutiny procedure is already quite simple. It's just that people do not read it.
I think this because I ran a readability test.
English is also not my native language.
https://gyazo.com/a16c04e2d3f6f65dc241db42adb4fa86
Test one.
Compared to the rules page.
https://gyazo.com/cf8a656e64a13890e981125ee8fe4b3a

The second test said about the same but more on my side hence I wont publish that.

I'd like to see possibly less OOC restrictions on MPs.
I've never had a report written up on my character and I play MP and medic almost exclusively. With that being said I'd say it shows my adherence to ML and the rules and I'd say I'm fair. I try to treat all personnel with respect u until I'm treated differently.
So many times I've been jumped by marines for conducting a lawful arrest or ordered by command which you are bound to carry out.ive been straight up murdered in improper escalation instances and generally just been spit on and snubbed by the masses for the audacity of wanting to play MP.
In what military in the world is it acceptable to run up to an NCO as a private and scream in his face calling him a retard and threatening to blow his brains out?

In reality you would be dragged to the brig and likely have the absolute living shit beaten out you.
The idea that MPs have to put up with so much abuse and vitriol and abuse from salty players for doing the role is absurd.
Having to listen to so much crap and being forced to treat mouthy insubordinate pfcs as gentle as bunnies is starting to wear on my nerves.
Rather beat you in your cell until you piss blood and then have you spend the next 10 minutes in medbay to think about maybe not being so rude next time you deal with a higher ranking marine on the ship.
Then you would have actual cause to complain about MP abuse or power trips instead of just making things up.

I agree that in general the restrictions placed upon mp's are harsh.
And that the reactions mp's get from marines are not proportional nor that people have quite the idea of rp. (See the post above yours doing that irl during a mission would be a big violation.)
But the consensus is that it's the mp's that need the restrictions when I feel marines also need some in regards to marine law.

Requiring faxes to high command is pointless since staff usually dont reply to faxes in a timely fashion, just change it out to an admin help with the proviso that staff need to reply in under 5 minutes (any answer is better than no answer)

Quite odd how it already says this for anything that removes a player from the round.
It's almost as if you did not read the op or document.

state exactly what the punishment for a crime is and leave no options whatsoever in the sentence. Its bullshit that someone can give you max timers just cause they don't like you on every little thing they can come up with. It shouldn't be 5-10 minutes it should just be 5 or 10 minutes not a choice.

A cop that does not like you during a stop can give you any ticket that applies.
If they do like you you get a warning.
You can just expect the maximum punishment for the crime if you feel you are that disliked.
Also, somehow this never happens to me when it's just one crime that is commited but only when you escalate?

[juliansl]

Personally I find that "Disrespecting a superior Officer" should not stack. This means that if I call the PO and idiot three times I can be executed.