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Thread: Unknown - Rule 16

  1. #1
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    Unknown - Rule 16

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    Talelor

    Date of Incident
    November 2, 2019

    Your Character Name?
    Osborne 'The Father' Payne

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    Unknown

    Accused Character Name
    Patton 'Hardtack' Moore

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    7:30 Central Time

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Rule 16

    Description of the incident:
    The Predators boarded the ship, and were requesting their eqipment back, so I asked the researchers to provide it but they didnt have it. The preds said they would leave, and as they ran down the hall, the captain ordered me to follow and kill them. I protested slightly, saying it was a bad idea, called him insane, but complied with the order and began chasing after the Predators. I Drew my weapon and ran down the hall. The CO then shot me in the back as I was running, knocking me over, and then Executed me. According to the rule 16, the CO must follow the rules laid out in the battlefield execution section of marine law, which says it must follow one of these reasons:

    -Threat to your command. Credibly attempting to or threatening to undermine your command or attempting to remove your command through illegal means. (The CL or other crew reporting you to high command does NOT permit you to BE them. A minor insult or disagreement is not undermining your command, countermanding or refusing to follow orders is.)
    -Threat to persons. Credibly threatening and attempting to do harm to the CO or to someone while in the CO's presence.
    -Threat to the ship. Credibly threatening or attempting to do damage to the ship or the USCM while in the CO’s presence.

    I posed no threat to command, and my insult, "you are insane" is also stated to not be undermining command. Nowhere does it authorize a BE on the grounds of hesitating to run face first into a losing battle against two predators. I followed his orders, albiet delayed by a few moments due to having to type my response, and he decided that even AFTER i began executing his order that he could BE me.

    In addition to this, refusal to follow an order is not in and of itself an Executable offence. It posed no immediate threat to him, as the Preds were far down the hall where we could not catch them. If he wished to report me for breaking marine law as the CMP, i could understand that, but his blatant misunderstanding of what counts as "usurping his authority" leads me to believe that he doesnt even care. I did hesitate when I should not have, but he was by all means not permitted to use a battlefield execution given the circumstances.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stutters, "CMP A-ARE YOU REFUSING TO CARRY OUT THIS LAWFUL O-ORDER"


    Julien Mao talks into the chief medical officer's headset
    Prof. Julien Mao [MedSci (CMO)] says, "Get your ass and wounded back to Almayer."


    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "I SPOKE WITH IT"


    SGT Guy McKnight says, "That is all."


    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stutters, "T-T-TO REMOVE THESE HOSTILES"


    Prof. Julien Mao [MedSci (CMO)] says, "What a mess."


    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.x9

    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.
    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.
    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.


    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.x5

    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.
    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.


    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana holds up the Communicator. Take a closer look.x4

    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "God you are insane"


    Dr. Alaina 'Hots' May [MedSci (Doc)] says, "I am at LZ2"


    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "FINE"


    PFC Archie Wible [Almayer (Bravo Mar)] says, "So"


    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "ILL KILL IT"
    PFC Archie Wible [Almayer (Bravo Mar)] says, "So"


    Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana talks into the Communicator


    Patton 'Hardtack' Moore fires the Mateba autorevolver special!


    You are hit by the high-impact revolver bullet in the chest!


    You can't draw a weapon in your current state.


    Dr. Maximus 'Zuppa' Toscana screams!


    Patton 'Hardtack' Moore aims at Ozzy 'The Father' Payne's head!


    Your chest hurts badly.


    Something inside your head hurts a lot.
    You feel something rip in your head!
    Something inside your chest hurts a lot.
    Something feels like it shattered in your chest!
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne screams!
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne screams!
    You feel something rip in your chest!
    Your face becomes unrecognizible mangled mess!
    You were Executed!

    How you would punish the accused:
    I think a warning is fine if this is a first offence or a mishap, and seeing as he is a well known CO, i doubt any further punishment would be necessary anyway.

  2. #2
    Admin Taketheshot56's Avatar
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    Note this was posted during a round which violates the rules, a response will be added once the round concludes.
    Former member of the Commanders Council, PM me if you want help with making a whitelist or have a question.

  3. #3
    Admin Taketheshot56's Avatar
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    Okay so i was already in research dealing with an issue with the xenos and doctors mucking about and we got locked in somehow with the shutters closed and no button, suddenly predators barge through the wall shooting it open leaving the girder behind, some of our group of doctors MP etc have pred gear on them.

    I go about the motions saying to the effect of
    "Yea yea....uhh turn out your pockets guys whos got the gear" to try and appease these preds from not slaughtering us in an exposed and confined position.

    As the CMP you roll up to the location just north of medbay and the CMO manages to hand over a crystal i believe and the predators turn to go. They have said they want our gear so naturally i assume they are probably going to be back once they figure out they didnt get all the gear, The second the girder is torn down while you are still conversing with the boarders.
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne bows.
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "Good Hunting"
    Patton 'Hardtack' Moore points to Unknown
    A strange voice says 't0 y0u @5 w311.'.
    Unknown has been bashed in the chest with Mateba autorevolver special by Patton 'Hardtack' Moore!
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stammers, "K-KILL"

    I run out and proceed to attack the boarders who just blew a whole through the ship. Ordering you to attack it as well.


    You respond with
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "STOP THAT"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "ITS PEACEFULL"


    As i continue to order the boarders repelled you refuse several more times.
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stammers, "Sh-Shoot i-i-it!"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "ITS PEACEFULL"
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stammers, "G-G-GO KILL IT CMP!"
    LCDR John Hardwell says, "The fuck happened?"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "STOP TRYING TO KILL IT"
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stammers, "I-I-ITS A-A FUCKING HOSTILE BOARDER"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "IT WILL LEAVE PEACEFULLY"


    I finally asked again if you were refusing the order after having asked you several times before.
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stutters, "CMP A-ARE YOU REFUSING TO CARRY OUT THIS LAWFUL O-ORDER"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "I SPOKE WITH IT"
    CPT Patton 'Hardtack' Moore stutters, "T-T-TO REMOVE THESE HOSTILES"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "God you are insane"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "FINE"
    LCDR Ozzy 'The Father' Payne says, "ILL KILL IT"

    You proceed to call me insane and say you will kill it and run off down the hall. So no, on its own i wouldn't BE you for calling me insane, But I would, after having given you an order several times and you only agreeing to follow it after it has run off and you have insulted me and undermined me in front of the crew.

    In conclusion, I BEd you because you refused a lawful order several times to attack the predators who had boarded the ship and who blew a hole through the containment room hull, of which you refused in front of a half dozen people including the CE, CMO, some researchers, MTs, an MP and a PFC. Only begrudgingly going to follow the order after you insulted me. That is directly undermining the command of the ship and quite frankly it is a rulebreak as CMP.
    Former member of the Commanders Council, PM me if you want help with making a whitelist or have a question.

  4. #4
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    I'll start pulling up the logs tommorow.

  5. #5
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    Well my point is that disagreeing with you over whether attacking them was right isn't undermining. If I said you were a terrible captain and shouldn't have your job, it might be. All i did was hesitate for less than 15 seconds following your order to attack two heavily armed aliens, trying to reason with you. I never threatened anything, and while technically it is a rulebreak, i think stopping for a few seconds to say something in chat doesn't count as disobeying orders.

  6. #6
    Admin Taketheshot56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozpayne View Post
    Well my point is that disagreeing with you over whether attacking them was right isn't undermining. If I said you were a terrible captain and shouldn't have your job, it might be. All i did was hesitate for less than 15 seconds following your order to attack two heavily armed aliens, trying to reason with you. I never threatened anything, and while technically it is a rulebreak, i think stopping for a few seconds to say something in chat doesn't count as disobeying orders.
    Privately disagreeing, no it would not be undermining. However verbally, loudly and infront of multiple subordinates and subordinate officers, refusing to carry out a lawful order that pertains to the safety of the ship and then insulting the CO infront of a group of people is most certainly undermining.
    Former member of the Commanders Council, PM me if you want help with making a whitelist or have a question.

  7. #7
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    Sorry for the wait on the logs. I don't have access to them ATM. Will get them when I can.

  8. #8
    Whitelisted Predator
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    Lead up to the CO and CMP event. I believe the CMP and CO might be seperated at this point in time. By what distance I am unsure.

    Spoiler Spoiler:



    CO and CMP meeting and conversation

    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Attack on CMP

    Spoiler Spoiler:


    I can't find the conversation with the predator that the CMP had. I'll try and scour the logs to find it.

  9. #9
    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    Before I reveal the Council's decision on this, I would like to start by saying that this was a very contentious report for us to tackle. Even from the beginning we knew that this one was close to a line somewhere, but where exactly and if it was crossed was something that was difficult to agree on. To simplify the matters, I will focus on the last moments of this report:

    [19:36:30]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : K-KILL
    [19:36:32]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : STOP THAT
    [19:36:37]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : Sh-Shoot i-i-it!
    [19:36:39]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : ITS PEACEFULL
    [19:36:42]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : G-G-GO KILL IT CMP!
    [19:36:45]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : STOP TRYING TO KILL IT
    [19:36:47]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : I-I-ITS A-A FUCKING HOSTILE BOARDER
    [19:36:53]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : IT WILL LEAVE PEACEFULLY
    [19:36:56]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : CMP A-ARE YOU REFUSING TO CARRY OUT THIS LAWFUL O-ORDER
    [19:36:58]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : I SPOKE WITH IT
    [19:37:00]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : T-T-TO REMOVE THESE HOSTILES
    [19:37:09]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : God you are insane
    [19:37:11]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : FINE
    [19:37:12]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : ILL KILL IT

    This is, simply put, the entire interaction that led to the BE. In this, the CMP voices discontent and disapproval of the order, Patton and the CMP argue very briefly, and Patton responds by demanding to know if the CMP is refusing to follow a lawful order, after which the CMP briefly insults Patton and gets BE'd after saying they're going to carry out Patton's order.

    The Council has gone over these 40-50 seconds carefully from every angle. Is the order acceptable? Is it something the CMP can refuse? In the end, with how ML and SOP is set up, no, the CMP cannot refuse this order. However, these lines here are where the most heated part of the debate occurred:

    [19:36:56]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : CMP A-ARE YOU REFUSING TO CARRY OUT THIS LAWFUL O-ORDER
    [19:36:58]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : I SPOKE WITH IT
    [19:37:00]SAY: Patton 'Hardtack' Moore/Taketheshot56 : T-T-TO REMOVE THESE HOSTILES
    [19:37:09]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : God you are insane
    [19:37:11]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : FINE
    [19:37:12]SAY: Ozzy 'The Father' Payne/Talelor : ILL KILL IT

    The Council felt, initially, that this felt very much like an ultimatum, but the CMP's initial response of "god you are insane" was a point of contention. It was felt that, if that line was not stated and the CMP agreed to carry out the order without protest after this, it would have made the BE Invalid. However, it was stated and therefore the BE could be argued as valid.

    However, in the end, the Council has in the past ruled that once an ultimatum is given, a BE is only valid if the Marine threatened with it continues what led up to it. As the CMP had agreed, begrudgingly, to carry out the orders, the Council has taken the stance that the CMP did comply with Patton's orders, but voiced his disagreement with the orders one last time before doing so. This is where the Council determined the line had been found and crossed. In the end, the Council is not willing to support a BE against someone who voices their disagreement with orders given, but carries them out anyways and has chosen to rule this BE INVALID.

    Per proceedure, a warning is issued against Patton to be more cautious about the difference between outright insubordination and attempts by subordinates to voice their displeasure with given orders before BEing them. The line has been marked for all to see here today. The Council hopes that it will be respected.
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

    Goddard Pearsall, the Pilot that (almost) always has Souto

    Unofficial source of help for new/inexperienced POs. Message me here or on Discord if you'd like advise on anything.


  10. #10
    CM-SS13 Host ThesoldierLLJK's Avatar
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    I concur with the council and taketheshot will have a warning on record.
    Future violations may result in WL suspension and/or revocation.

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