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Thread: Don't Fight Coordinate Extrapolation, Incorporate It

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    Senior Member Outcast Seer's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Don't Fight Coordinate Extrapolation, Incorporate It

    Last month, our beloved Head Dev Neth proposed creating a "non-linear coordinate" system to combat certain individuals who are extrapolating coordinates anywhere on the map through some math (which some would accuse this to be meta-gaming). From my understanding, Neth would effectively be encrypting coordinates, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Real-world militaries don't depend on range-finders for all fire, logistic, and other indirect support missions. They have maps. Maps with grid systems that people estimate the coordinates of locations from. Emerald herself said something to this effect. So instead of effectively making it cannon that the USCM uses some ass-backwards encrypted coordinate system that is so complex that maps are rendered useless, I would propose an alternative: Let the marines create their own gridded map.

    Think about it. According to the lore we are patrolling the far frontier of space, fighting on worlds whose actual names the USCM doesn't even know (Do you really think the colonists who have made these worlds their home use names like "LV-###"?) or on stations, which the owners would have no rational reason to create gridded maps of. So it would make sense that one of the first priorities the command crew (ie the SOs) would have when arriving at some backwater distress beacon with no proper maps of the AO (areas of operation) would be to create their own map. The SOs would start with orbital imaging to create a rough grid system. It would be inaccurate. Lets say coordinates from this initial map would be 60% accurate (completely arbitrary). If CiC tries to use these coordinates, they might get within ballpark range of where the actual coordinates in the AO are, but it would be risky. You might hit the xeno's position with an OB without needing a spotter, you might drop supplies to a cut off group of fortified marines who lack a rangefinder. Or you might hit the FOB with an OB and deliver a crate of MREs to the xenos (USCM Catering, dopping flavor bombs like its Operation Rolling Thunder!). At this stage, coordinates from spotters would effectively be mandatory. Coordinate values would be different each match. For example, the bottom left tile of the map might have the coordinate value of 156, 82 or -352, 0. If this is insufficient, the coordinate value pattern could also be randomized so on one round, "up" makes latitude more positive while "right" makes longitude more negative, while another round the pattern is positive, positive (I'm here to blow your 2D space-man mind: "up" doesn't have to mean "North").

    Marines on the ground could increase the accuracy of CiC's gridded map by going to "landmarks" on the ground and marking them with a rangefinder and giving the data to CiC. Example: Alpha SL stands on one landmark, a big and colorful rock, and lases the big tree on LV. ARES takes the "data" from the SL's position in relation to the lase and improves the accuracy of the map's grid system. There could be several pairs of landmarks randomly placed across the map that marines would have to go to and defend until CiC gets the data. This has several benefits: First, it creates an organic objective system for marines that provides meaningful and substantial benefits. You want better OB support without green dots giving away your intentions? You have to work for it. Second, it gives more strategic options to the CO. A CO might choose to have more mortars brought up from Req to create a creeping barrage for the marines to advance with, or use them in a box-barrage firing pattern to trap xenos against a marine push. But, the CO would have to sacrifice the early game, when marines are at their strongest, to get a map accurate enough to do this. Third, it would reduce metarushing. If Command is having Alpha and Charlie do actual scouting, then Delta alone is unlikely to kill the hive by 12:45 (or some other equivalent). Fourth, this would give the SOs something meaningful to do during the preparation phase of a match. Requisitions has to equip marines, Medical needs to make medicine and set up the ORs, Engineering has to repair the reactors and load the OB. What do the SOs do? Fight over who gets what squad, and talk meaningless strategy (POs have to fight for who flies what AND prepare the dropships). Now they would have to do preliminary work scanning the planet and preparing the map to receive data from the ground (still thinking how this would precisely be done). CiC would have their own preparations to make besides giving input to the XO/CO on how marines should blob the xenos to death this time (or get horribly slaughtered.

    Now, some of you might point out that this does absolutely nothing to stop the "meta-gamers," to which I say: It doesn't have to. You give a player the choice between a system that feels cheesy, is finicky to do, and brings with it the fear of a meta-gaming ban, then present the player an IC system that is fun, interesting, and creates RP, strategy, and hilarity; 99 out of 100 times that player will choose the later system. Don't fight the people gaming the system. Make gaming the system obsolete and boring. I suspect that no matter how much the devs could encrypted the system, there will be that one guy who figures out a way to exploit it (our devs are great, but they aren't all cyber-security professionals). If this isn't enough, maybe make it that ARES (a W-Y made AI) wont allow the OB to fire on a civilian (W-Y) target from map-estimated coordinates unless the gridded map reaches a certain percentage of accuracy (maybe make it that the CL has the power to override this requirement, which creates LOADS of potential for RP shenanigans). So instead of wasting time and effort on stopping player innovation, I would like to make the case that the devs should instead create an interesting system that gives marines meaningful objectives, opens up new potential strategy and RP, and makes the meta-gamers obsolete.
    Last edited by Outcast Seer; 11-05-2019 at 01:05 AM.
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    Senior Member Outcast Seer's Avatar
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    Some might note the logical inconsistency with requiring marines to make an accurate map for CiC to extrapolate coordinates from while still having range-finders provide 100% accurate coordinates.

    To this, I say:
    1. That doesn't change the fact that this would still be a fun system that creates greater roleplay and gameplay depth.
    2. Its a game. Why so serious?
    3. Maybe marines should actually have to create a moderately accurate map before they can get useful coordinates for mortars, supplies, and OBs (and maybe even CAS one day?). However, testing would have to be done before such a drastic change could be implemented.
    Luca Jagemann, the cynical colonial with the prescription glasses.

    Ancient Synth Williams, on another rescue mission in Brazil.

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    It about powergaming, the issue is you want infinite or near infinite aliens or just 200 aliens vs 30 marines? In Alien lore the aliens typically need to out number the marines or hunt down the marines horror movie style.

    The issue with allowing people to guess the mark is for example on prison station you can ORBITAL BOMBARD THE HIVE 3 MINUTES IN. All it takes is an SO with the knowledge of one coords and they can extrapolate the cords to the hive on this map, same with CORSAT and Trijent. The big issue is you can just bombard to hell and back common xeno throughpaths and just kill way too many aliens screwing them over so match they would need massive buffs.

    Instead of buffing aliens to massive degrees so one guy can play excel spreadsheets with coords the plan is just say no to extrapolating the coords.

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    Senior Member Outcast Seer's Avatar
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    I respectfully disagree with you. I may not have properly presented it in the proposal, but the coordinates for every location would not be the same every match, nor should they necessarily follow the same pattern every match (ie Northern values could be more negative than Southern one match, and the same for East and West).

    Additionally, you are assuming that xeno strategy would not change in response to this addition. I find this to be wholly unrealistic. Queens would choose new nest locations away from the "meta" spots, which would create fights in areas that aren't commonly fought over (this would help make certain maps less stale).

    You also ignore the inaccuracy issue. Command WOULD NOT be able to effectively target common nest locations in the first place. Even then, Devs could implement a time lock on the OB just like the dropships.

    Finally, OBs are not cheap in terms of supply points. Command would have the (stupid) option of inaccurately tossing OBs at the AO, but that would cost the marines painfully in terms of FOB supplies and ammo WHILE risking potentially devastating friendly fire.

    I will edit the proposal to clarify this misconception.
    Last edited by Outcast Seer; 11-05-2019 at 01:12 AM.
    Luca Jagemann, the cynical colonial with the prescription glasses.

    Ancient Synth Williams, on another rescue mission in Brazil.

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    I mean you can eventually triangulate the hive spot on dam, corsat, and prison by just finding where nested marines are relative to a SL and do some guess work. I do not want people just no scope OBing the hive and killing 5-10 aliens. It is not fun having your captures just OBed becuase someone did some spreadsheet math and guess there position. It already sucks when someone flares in the hive and kills a bunch of aliens, espically SSD larva which do have a tendancy to build up and get unattended.

    It back to would it be more fun to have this or not and I believe it is not a net fun for anyone. It makes more work to protect captures encouraging a no capture meta and if it does work can inflict so much damage on aliens it would cause a greater need for alien buffs to balance out the ability to guess OB targets, or mortar which is the bigger concern tbh, which in the end would make the game less fun for marines and survivors

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    Senior Member Outcast Seer's Avatar
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    There seems to be a misunderstanding. SOs would not be playing spreadsheet. They would be working with a tool along the lines of the tacmap, but with a grid. For the grid values to be precise enough to target a single marine with an OB, several landmarks would need to be used to update the map.

    Then there is the issue that you keep assuming xeno behavior exists in a vacuum. It does not. Xenos are controlled by players, players adapt. Good harasser xenos can force the marines to dedicate a large force to secure landmarks and punish small recon teams. Nesting behavior will change. If a marine has not ghosted, xenos will nest them farther away from the main hive where the eggs and larvae is (as they should, if xenos let a marine get up and toss a flare they deserve to be punished). Xenos already make small, single secure nests away from the hive and close to the front line. Would a CO really want to risk hitting friendlies for the sake of gibbing a single capture?

    Triangulation CAN occur but that requires the SL or aSL to spend a considerable amount of time away from leading and fighting to get a reliable estimation. This is time spent not leading the squad, time spent not giving out buffs. This would more often than not be detrimental to marines and thus be uncommon.

    I do appreciate your concern about fun. This is a game where we SHOULD be having fun, not salt. While I agree that in the short term captures would decrease, in the long term xenos could easily adapt and captures would increase again. To be honest, the whole capture system is in desperate need of a fundamental rework. I believe that new ideas shouldn't be held back by bad existing mechanics that will be changed.

    Finally, your concern about the effect of OBs concerns me. Even if CiC could get exact, precise, perfect coordinates with the xenos having NO idea that they were being targeted, you are forgetting one key thing: OBs are obvious as Hell.

    Seriously, check out Gitlab. There are several issues where XENO MAINS have attested that there is waaaay to much warning over OBs. I seriously doubt there will "5-10 kill snipes" happening every match.

    This system is meant to be a fallback for Command when there are no spotters to get coordinates. It would only surpass the capabilities of a spotter by a dedicated marine effort to mark enough landmarks (which more than a few by design would be behind xeno lines). This would mean giving the xenos more time to build up critical mass and force the marines off planet/station.

    Oh, as a side-note: This system could also serve as an alternative way for the marines to end stalemates besides Defcon camping to the nuke.
    Luca Jagemann, the cynical colonial with the prescription glasses.

    Ancient Synth Williams, on another rescue mission in Brazil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigeon View Post
    It about powergaming, the issue is you want infinite or near infinite aliens or just 200 aliens vs 30 marines? In Alien lore the aliens typically need to out number the marines or hunt down the marines horror movie style.

    The issue with allowing people to guess the mark is for example on prison station you can ORBITAL BOMBARD THE HIVE 3 MINUTES IN. All it takes is an SO with the knowledge of one coords and they can extrapolate the cords to the hive on this map, same with CORSAT and Trijent. The big issue is you can just bombard to hell and back common xeno throughpaths and just kill way too many aliens screwing them over so match they would need massive buffs.

    Instead of buffing aliens to massive degrees so one guy can play excel spreadsheets with coords the plan is just say no to extrapolating the coords.
    what if they either made it so that the hive location on prison wasn't OBable made it so that prison wasn't an absolutely awful map that had only 1 viable hive location so that you couldn't always know exactly where the xenos are every round?

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    Simply remove coordinates. Rely entirely on Flares and Binocs, but buff them in exchange. Let Command to "save" spots that marines lazed/flared for the rest of the round, so that they can be used at any given time. If marines menaged to go somewhere, they have 100% right to OB something that binocs see (maybe NV binocs for example?). Maybe add special CAS "weapon" that would "shoot" unmeltable flares that burn in 5 minutes, but also have cameras, who let Command to have real-time feedback of site they potentialy want to OB.

    This will encourage actuall scouting parties from marines and them being everywhere, so no part of the map remains always empty. Benos will have to learn to not nest marines in the main hive, as simple as that. Potential powergamers will have to hide their calculators with sheet of paper and pen back to the school backpack.

    Marines menaged to scout the main hive location? Sucks for benos, because it just became a spot for OB'ing. They are now punished for not fighting and just retreating to the caves with very little to no ressistance. They have to change their hidey-hole, or face death. Benos were turtling the entire game and now they want to change the spot? Sucks for them, no more camping, either be on the run, or face death. All of that in exchange for not getting OB where no JTAC/SL/Scout was.

    Or add some special structures that needs to be repaired by marines, but they allow Command and Pilots to shoot any loads in it's fairly big range.

  9. #9
    Admin Novacti's Avatar
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    Honestly, I support @outcast on this one, keeping this feature not only allows for extra depth and tactics, but it also increases the immersion, forcing players to do what real-life military personnel would do when they do not have exact co-ords for something; they improvise.
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