Unknown - 15 and 17

[WitheredGryphon]

Player Report

Your Byond ID?

WitheredGryphon

Date of Incident

December 10, 2019

Your Character Name?

Adan 'Crow' Sasaki

Accused Byond Key(if known):

Unknown

Accused Character Name

William 'Jester' Crimson

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)

6:00 PM C.S.T.

What rule(s) were broken:

15 and 17

Description of the incident:

After speaking with a Trial Mod (Doctor Compy) in-game about this, here's what happened:

CMP (William 'Jester' Crimson), prior to what happens next, has already arrested three (or more) people by this point. I made that evident over the comms. It was not clear what they were arrested for, though, outside of throwing eggs. The reason is Bill Carson, the CO, made an announcement specifically regarding eggs and there were splatted eggs in the briefing room.

I sat down in the Alpha briefing area somewhat close to an Alpha engineer (Joneh Jonathan). Doctor Compy told me at some point Joneh Jonathan said "mutiny" at some point on the radio, I must have missed this, I was also helping someone in LOOC at the time with some chat issues.

At no time did Joneh move from his spot in the Alpha briefing room prior to him getting arrested. CMP goes to arrest him. I try to disarm the CMP and grab Joneh, our only engineer. Apparently there was some sort of unofficial mutiny occurring at this time. I was not aware of any sort of mutiny, and there did not appear to be any indication of mutiny at the time. There was two or more other people who joined in at this point. CMP arrests everyone.

CMP takes me into the brig and stuffs me into a locker then locks it. He then reads off a charge as "insub x1 and disrespect." Fine, I did try to disarm him and said he was a prick after arresting me. Without doing anything else, CMP then upgrades my charge to Sedition, and I'm placed in perma-brig.

I admin-help and talk with Doctor Compy. I tell him it's a gross overreach that, even if Joneh said 'mutiny' on the radio, there was zero indication a mutiny was occurring or that sedition was taking place. I also told him I wasn't aware of any authorized mutiny taking place, and I did not intend to partake in one.

Doctor Compy said he agreed it was an overreach of Marine Law and would speak with the CMP about cleaning up the round. I was released after about an hour of being in the perma-brig. I was denied an appeal to Command before being given a chance to make one by a different MP.

===

My understanding is anyone can be arrested and held, but evidence of the crime they've been arrested for must be presented or prevarication may be enforced. There was no evidence Joneh partook in mutiny or engaged in usurping the command structure. Joneh was also perma'd without appeal.

I should also note, a separate(?) mutiny took place following these arrests, which was a sanctioned mutiny. I was not part of this mutiny or related to it in any way.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

After looking back through the logs, here is what Joneh said regarding a mutiny and me working with Gabriella Lineman regarding OOC issues:

https://pastebin.com/3mmcf38B

Carson announcement:

Command Announcement

This is Captain Carson
Marines if you operate in a respectable normal mannor you will not be detained.
Throwing eggs is not respectable behavior.

Joneh's arrest:

https://pastebin.com/5PyZ3XnQ

My original charge with time and getting stuffed and locked inside a locker:

https://pastebin.com/vCNn498e

CMP upgrades the charge with zero warning or reason:

https://pastebin.com/7AQHghTv

My appeal being denied before I could even request it:

SSGT Zach Nato says, "Appeal was denied apparently"

--

LCPL Joneh Jonathan [Almayer (Alpha Eng)] asks, "Is my appeal ever going to get
answered or am I literally going to spend the entire OP here?"


PFC Antoni Macierewi [Almayer (Delta Mar)] says, "DONT WORRY JONEH AFTER IM OUT
OF THE BRIG"


PFC Antoni Macierewi [Almayer (Delta Mar)] says, "I WILL BE BACK"


CPL Adan 'Crow' Sasaki says, "MP denied my appeal before ever allowing me to
request one."
CPL Adan 'Crow' Sasaki [Almayer (Alpha LCpl)] says, "MP denied my appeal before
ever allowing me to request one."


CPL Adan 'Crow' Sasaki says, "So don't hold your breath Joneh."
CPL Adan 'Crow' Sasaki [Almayer (Alpha LCpl)] says, "So don't hold your breath
Joneh."


LCPL Joneh Jonathan [Almayer (Alpha Eng)] says, "Fucking marvelous."

Logs with Doctor Compy:

https://pastebin.com/MbGiZBJJ

How you would punish the accused:

A temporary job ban from CMP. I think Jester's interpretation and handling of Marine Law vastly oversteps the intention of its writing. I think playing as a regular MP under other CMPs would solve this.

[Doctor Compy]

This round was pretty intense and I had done my best to figure everything out with just myself and Big Cheeks trying to handle the situations.

At the time I saw the Ahelp through the spam of logs I knew Carson made an announcement that anyone who cried out the M-word (Mutiny) was to be arrested on sight. Jester arrested Johen for saying mutiny and then Adan went to stop the arrest. Jester arrested the both of them and applied Sedation to Johen and Insub to Adan.

Later he puts Adan in perma and charged him with Sedation and claimed in Ahelps that they were adding the charges to the both of them (Not giving much thought at the time as we had other things going on) I had allowed it. After Adan Ahelped it again and speaking with Jester I found that it was rather unfair to be perma'd for Sedation that another marine had done.

Though I still think Jester did his best in the situation as CMP and agreed with me to release Adan as it seemed a bit over the top and did so with a few other marines, he still did his best to take ahold of the situation with Carson's orders to mass arrest marines.

I do apologize if I had brought any inconvenience with my first judgement of the situation as I was trying to get through all the Ahelps that were happening and I'm not fully in-tuned with ML.

[CryoDrake]

I will post the logs soon.

[solidfury7]

"CMP goes to arrest him. I try to disarm the CMP and grab Joneh"

Interfering with an arrest- To disrupt or interfere with a lawful arrest done by the military police - Same punishment as accused or Permanent confinement

You literally started disarming me, while detaining someone who was encouraging a mutiny and claiming they want to mutiny, which is seen as Sedition, or aiding and abetting a mutiny, at best.

It isn't my fault that you decided to do that.

Nor is it my fault you decided to do that without sufficient knowledge of his crime.

------------

Regarding charges, I was reading out specific charges to other MPs, I believe this was for....someone who was with Antonio, although his name illudes me, I had two new MPs at this stage, and one competent MP trying to ensure that the brig was kept to the best possible standard, especially due to a bug which caused all timers to break.

Your charge was always interfering with arrest, its why you were brought in to the brig by myself. You were placed in the locker because I had the other two individuals I arrested in the other room trying to break out of cuffs, so I put you in the locker to taser then and get the other MPs to help them drag you in here.

Upgrading charges, even if this was the case, is not even against the rules, we are permitted to alter charges if we realise there is a more fitting charge, so I have no idea what that argument is.

Further more, you sent an appeal to HC, which I sent, it was never denied, it was actually eventually accepted after I spoke with the mod in question who already had a lot on his plate, and likely did not have time to do the fax formally, and he said while I was lawfully correct, it wasn't particularly fun for the player to be in the brig for the full round. Considering he accepted the appeal only for you, I assumed it was you were a new player just being new. Lawfully, I was correct about the charges.

TLDR: Someone said "They wanted to mutiny", they were detained for it, you interfered not knowing the charges, and you were detained for it.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[solidfury7]

Regarding the last post, I realised that the original Sedition charge against Joneh was the one who sent an appeal.

I do believe I did offer you both an appeal but nobody responded to it, although I cannot be certain. I never denied any appeals that round and sent every fax handed to me, even the memes ones.

[WitheredGryphon]

As I said, I was never offered an appeal or even spoken with by you after I was perma-brigged, and the MP who denied an appeal was not you. I was only released after a-helping and speaking with Doctor Compy.

Joneh did not encourage a mutiny or take part in one prior to you arresting him, nor did you present any evidence after the fact. The only evidence was a single radio transmission he said as an offhanded joke. There was no attempt at sedition when he was arrested, let alone aiding and abetting a non-existent mutiny.

[solidfury7]

Encouraging mutiny, yelling mutiny, threatening to mutiny, are all criminal offences, and have been for a long time, its why many of Delta often say "m word" when you're joking about mutiny.

This is seen as sedition and/or aiding and abetting.

His comments were very much not seen as a joke, threatening to mutiny during mass arrests isn't suitable as a joke. Many of the people who joked "m word" were not arrested, as the context directed it to be more so a joke, a jab at the Co's banning of the phrase.

I really, strongly advise you read marine law as it appears you're unfamiliar with it, this has been pretty solidly covered before and as I said before, it's covered both by sedition And aiding and abetting.

The rest of your comments are basically baseless comments such as lack of evidence. The whole CIC team heard him, I heard him. There is no way to even record telecoms as an MP currently.

Regarding someone denying your appeal, that wasn't me, I even placed a warden in charge so that all appeals were met and all records up to date.

But yeah, reread marine law.

[WitheredGryphon]

According to Marine Law:

Sedition: To engage in actions or refuse to follow orders as to overthrow or usurp the legitimate command structure.

Making a single comment without any other action does not follow “... as to overthrow or usurp the legitimate command structure.” No action was taken at any point to usurp command or participate in a mutiny by myself or Joneh. I would agree with an insubordination charge and insulting charge as you originally described. Sedition and permanently removing multiple marines from a round was an overreach.

I’ll leave it to the mods/admins to see if they feel the same. I have nothing else to add.

[solidfury7]

According to Marine Law:



Making a single comment without any other action does not follow “... as to overthrow or usurp the legitimate command structure.” No action was taken at any point to usurp command or participate in a mutiny by myself or Joneh. I would agree with an insubordination charge and insulting charge as you originally described. Sedition and permanently removing multiple marines from a round was an overreach.

I’ll leave it to the mods/admins to see if they feel the same. I have nothing else to add.

As I said, if is viewed as one of two charges.

Sedition

Or Aiding and Abetting Sedition.

Your charges were never altered. It was always aiding and abetting sedition in your case. I was reading charges for another person.

If you're arguing that the original arrest on the other original person was invalid, I would like to point out he would Still be valid for aiding and abetting sedition.

Both actions have the same timers, can be used interchangeably if one wished more for the same time, if one wished. As the subject specifically mentioned wanting to mutiny, he was charged with sedition, as wanting to mutiny is the same as threatening it, just as if threatening to kill someone in marine law, is the same as trying to so.

Just wished to expand on it, to avoid misunderstanding.

[Dubszor]

Your arrest was handled in game, so that side of this issue is resolved.

In regards to Jonah, rule 6 of the Report a Player Forum rules state that "You may not make an report for another player if they were the victim of a rule break. The exceptions to this rule is if you are reporting a player for a Whitelist violation (CO Standards/SOP, Synth Guidelines, Predator Honorcode)".

Jonah needs to make a report about this situation if they believe a rule was broken.