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Thread: Rule re-work/changes, discussion think tank thread

  1. #1
    CM-SS13 Host ThesoldierLLJK's Avatar
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    Rule re-work/changes, discussion think tank thread

    I'll keep it short, since I've been in management I think our rules need to be tweaked. Everyone complains about LRP, staff having to memorize a discord channel on rule clarifications, what is/is not power gaming, metarushing, etc...

    My personal philosophy has always been the following:

    -If it doesn't break a rule listed on the page, it's not a rule break. Having to memorize a discord channel of rulings that rival supreme court case law is ludicrous.

    -RP Standards for marines and xenos have gone to shit. I believe if you want to make dumb memes and post copy pastes, you should do it as a PFC, not a Captain/Commander/Staff Sergeant

    -Whitelists are whitelists, and a separate bag

    If you think a rule needs to be changed, please give us a suggestion. I only ask that you give a REASONABLE suggestion, don't just post in here "Please make ERP allowed" because I'll just ignore your response and delete it. I am gathering feed back for something to bring to the other managers and head.

    Please keep the discussion here civil, and don't shitpost.

    I am collecting this feedback for the benefit of the community, and this is your chance to propose stuff to someone who will listen.

  2. #2
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    Rule 5 is extremely outdated and almost never enforced, because no one anymore knows what's powergaming, as 90% of things that can be powergamed have been removed mechanically.

    Metagaming is outdated as well, contains rules such as "Welding vents before seeing the aliens use them or before they've boarded the ship" which is pretty much moot since we have the expected contact, ""Ramboing" - Chasing down aliens immediately after the first contact, directly to their hive." which in rules clarification thread on the forums is explained as:

    "Can you go into detail about the "Ramboing" rule? - Honestly, this rule is rather old and from a time when CM was a lot smaller of a population, and before we had map deterrents built in. It may be just lumped into metagaming to make things easier."

    so it is confusing whether or not you enforce it and it's up to staff discretion.

    Staff keeps enforcing "proper escalation" but no escalation is explained in the rules that's supposed to be fists > melee weapons > guns.

    Rule 15 is dumb and a hell to deal with for staff members. People use that rule to ahelp any minor thing about MPs. Marine Law should be scrapped and rewritten to not encourage shittlery for MPs, because right now it's just a griefer role.

    RP rule/don't be a dick rule are only enforced when it's convenient. Right now our RP is shit and a lot of people are dicks but it's okay because "it's roleplay."

    Also there should be a very clear rule against metarushing, since people keep getting into trouble for ordering squads into hive areas.
    Last edited by AcuteCircle; 12-11-2019 at 05:55 AM.
    Former staff, also former Synthetic senator.

    Now just a shitposter and lurker.

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    I think it's safe to go ahead and update the whole metagaming/metacoms rule in light of expected contact RP, personally speaking.

    Other than that there's only one change I'd make and that's to rule 4.

    If you are being griefed, don’t retaliate - Adminhelp it and you’ll get healed.
    The number of times I've seen people justify shooting someone who shot them as defending themselves or justified force, ect makes me wonder how much this part is actually enforced and if it needs to be changed, or emphasised more. But that's just personal experience.

    And maybe look through EB's rules clarification thread and see if anything from that can be added to the main rules just to clear things up a bit, although I know most people want to keep the rules as short as possible.

    Also, abolish unwritten rules. There should be no such thing as unwritten rules. Autism forts against the rules? Make a rule that says that or say they're all OK.
    Last edited by Heraclitus; 12-11-2019 at 05:53 AM.

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    You might wanna reclarify Rule 11 as Marines do try to suicide when captured to avoid breeding a new xeno.

    And on discord channel rulings, by that if you mean the rulings staff makes in the Appeal/Report section then yes it's incredibly ludicrous to remember all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heraclitus View Post
    The number of times I've seen people justify shooting someone who shot them as defending themselves or justified force, ect makes me wonder how much this part is actually enforced and if it needs to be changed, or emphasised more. But that's just personal experience.
    You can check Rule 14, I believe it is a clash between two rules and some people may take things too far and argue their way out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heraclitus View Post
    Also, abolish unwritten rules. There should be no such thing as unwritten rules. Autism forts against the rules? Make a rule that says that or say they're all OK.
    This. If it is not written for us to know you should not punish us for it. Like that one time we all got bwoinked for OBing after Evacing the planet when the rule was clearly not written anywhere until the report against Patton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcuteCircle View Post
    Rule 15 is dumb and a hell to deal with for staff members. People use that rule to ahelp any minor thing about MPs. Marine Law should be scrapped and rewritten to not encourage shittlery for MPs, because right now it's just a griefer role.
    I agree Rule 15 needs a rework.

    • First, Marine Law needs to be clarified and arrest procedure needs to be streamlined. Ideally, this is fixed and tested prior to any new rule roll-out. There is a lengthy Marine Law Discussion Thread on the forum that has a number of ideas that can be harvested by staff.
    • Second, there needs to be a line drawn over what's ahelpable and what's not. Some things need to be ruled IC issues. What is worth rousing the Gods over and what is not?
    • Third, a perceived invalid arrest should not be a cause for mutiny, ever. Mutiny is against a CO and not against MP's or a CMP.
    • Finally, and a corollary to the last point, something needs to be established in the rules related to whole squads interfering with arrests at briefing, valid or otherwise. This has caused more rounds to go out of the window than anything else. Other squads should not be punished with a destroyed round because one squad claims a chucklefucking card because handcuffs are applied. This often takes the form of a non-ahelped mutiny. Actively interfering with an arrest is LRP and can escalate things and there should be an OOC line drawn somewhere.

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    Clarifications or rulings should be on a case by case basis, extremely short term, and inform frequent changes/tweaks to the rules.

    The discussion and recording of these clarifications/rulings should be 100% public.

    Any changes to the rules should be well recorded and any updates should be highly visible to players.

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    While I agree that marine law could probably use a rework, I feel that rule 15 should stay

    Rule 5 is pretty outdated as the things that used to fall under powergaming are now behind skill locks or removed from the game. Heck we can't even make atmos bombs, open phoron canisters to make an everburning inferno, or detonate the supermatter.

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    or you can rule based on the spirit of the rule, instead of the law of the rule

    that being if somebody is being a dick, you have to ask yourself; is their behavior consistent, are they constantly picking on people or does it look like harmless banter

    you know, the type of things a real human bean would ask

    if there is a consistent behavior of dickery, it is against one person / specific group, and it starts affecting the round (full blown shootouts, mutinies just because x doesn't like y, etc) then yeah, its being a dick

    of course this is all case by case; sometimes people are dicks to others because said people are insufferable fucking cunts that should always be talked down to because none of the admins want to deal with them and their partial-not-really-rule-breaks (see: dumb commander moves that look like full blown griefing that are covered up by "its just roleplay xd")

  9. #9
    CM-SS13 Host Frozentsbgg's Avatar
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    Context Context Context

    Staff need to take circumstances into account before passing judgement.
    A lot of it isn't even the rules fault.
    Something like fists > melee weapons > guns was a guideline. The rule is about judging the IC context of the situation and not the be all end all.

    There's a difference between rule 0ing something and accessing the situation, understanding the context and coming to a decision. Staff need to actively examine the context, and apply the rules with the context in mind. Mitigating circumstances exist.

    Additionally, I feel that the rules can be relaxed a bit in certain areas. There's a healthy balance that we can find between stopping malicious griefing and allowing for players to have fun, RP and explore organic situations which develop from CM. One of SS13's best features is the random organic RP that occurs, and I think CM could foster that by relaxing some of the rules.



    Marine Law needs a rework too lol, @grimreaper back to the drawing board :^)

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    The current mutiny rules are bad, as are a number of staff ideas about the entire concept of them. "Mutinies are griefing CIC" is the absolutely worst offender here and is something I've heard repeated by staff many times. It's a very flawed understanding of what mutinies are and why they arise, which is probably why mutiny rules are awful.

    The entire concept of metarushing is outdated. Metarushing, previously, was an incredibly effective marine strategy because of the way xenos scale. Xeno scaling has been sped up massively in the early game over the past year or so and now marines run into T3s on landing, larvae burst much faster and maps have been altered so as to slow down rapid pushes. The reasoning for the rule is that metarushing results in the round ending at 12:45, which is boring, but that's no longer usually the case. The only time that that amount of success happens is when the xenos are just very incompetent: they have no defences, no resin, no strategic castes, just a dozen lurkers and half a dozen Ravagers who run at the marines and get mowed down. Any hive that can get wiped by delta sprinting at them at 12:40 would get wiped the same way at any point, because that's more than enough time for them to get their shit together. As such, "metarushing" as a tactic is just another tactic, with a risk/reward ratio similar enough to any other tactic that having it be specifically banned is foolish. This is especially because there are no fixed criteria for what determines a metarush, nor a fixed response when one happens. I've seen metarush called on the marines pushing caves at 12:50, over half an hour after drop. This rule being in place makes the game worse. It should be removed, and I don't even think any mechanical adjustments would need to be made at this point for its removal to not cause problems(maaaaaaybe moving the dropship timer to 12:20 or 12:25, but that really is it).

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