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Thread: Metarushing discussion

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destrok View Post
    They don't do it every round, even if they should. But, what is better in your opinion, having marines fire an OB then push into the blasted Barrens, or having marines with the tank just steamroll across the defense-barren Barrens up to containers and just fucking force the queen to deovi at 12:30 or some shit? I will agree that barrens is very very vulnerable to CAS/OB fire but if you DON'T have those defenses there, you will suffer the consequences. And besides what I said doesn't just apply for for LV. Having fortifications on any fucking map is ESSENTIAL and wins xenos rounds. Resin walls are worth their weight in gold in multiple situations, too many to count really.
    I just dont think you should have illusions about hivelords making or breaking rounds.
    For example, in my opinion boilers are ESSENTIAL to win. There are many ESSENTIAL things for winning. It's not one thing.

    Each side has strategic needs.

    For xenos these strategic needs are:
    - Fighting
    - Construction
    - Capturing
    - Guarding captures

    I could be more detailed but for our purposes these are distinct roles. If the hive does not have at least one competent person doing each of these 4 roles then the xeno potential is compromised.
    Of course the same is true for marines..

  2. #22
    Senior Member SirMandrake's Avatar
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    Having not read any of the previous responses, metarushing is a poorly agreed upon term and it frustrates me greatly. Getting called out for it on Big Red at 1240 because the xenos lead you to ETA caves is beyond annoying, especially as Command because it's difficult to explain why marines must suddenly stop attacking if they do come across a random warrior just running into the caves. At roughly 1224 xenos evolve to T3s, and yes T3s are much more useful at mature (which happens after first contact with marines), but there are so many things you can do to defend against early rushes. I dunno, just feel like the term metarush is thrown around too frequently. I genuinely want to read other responses later for different opinions, but these are my initial thoughts.
    Goosen Dagen-casual marine

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkermain View Post
    I just dont think you should have illusions about hivelords making or breaking rounds.
    For example, in my opinion boilers are ESSENTIAL to win. There are many ESSENTIAL things for winning. It's not one thing.

    Each side has strategic needs.

    For xenos these strategic needs are:
    - Fighting
    - Construction
    - Capturing
    - Guarding captures

    I could be more detailed but for our purposes these are distinct roles. If the hive does not have at least one competent person doing each of these 4 roles then the xeno potential is compromised.
    Of course the same is true for marines..
    I'm going to salt a bit at this because guarding captives does not feel fair. The doors take a fraction of a second too long to open, their shotgun teleports back onto them even after disarm and then they either shotgun you or shotgun themselves, or they overdose, or they burn themselves, or they call in CAS/OB, or...the darn list continues. Capturing/guarding is harder imo than just killing the darn marine because you can spend five minutes sitting there staring at people for one guy to drop some research made nade and kill everyone/your hard work in seconds, and once they pull that pin and stick it in their pocket there is NOTHING the xeno can do to stop it.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiChii View Post
    snip
    last time I heard from Cakey he was planning to add resisting out of nest delay back (not just the root we have now) so that should help a lot with all of those problems.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grentex View Post
    Yea I know Metarushing sucks because it doesn't make for a fun round and what not.

    The thing is, xeno mechanics encourage for us to not sit on our asses doing fuck all to them.
    What do I mean by this? I mean the age Mechanic.
    We were talking about it over discord I learned that a surv fighting an ancient burrower blew up a gastank near it and gave it +3 Buckshot PB before it finally went down. So that's the damage from the explosion + the dot from fire + 3 buckshot. To kill it.
    Meanwhile the same surv shot a young warrior like two times with buckshot and it died.

    The metarushing happens because of the age mechanic gives marines a reason not to wait around. Ancient T3s (even some T2s in rare cases) are difficult to handle, so it's best to remove them before that can happen. Honestly I think we need to rethink the way around the age mechanic.
    What about DEFCON ?

    I know it doesnt work too well on most of the maps, but it being reworked (From what i can see on forum thread)


    Quote Originally Posted by havokman View Post
    Even setting aside the age mechanic, there is a second reason why "metarushes" are heavily incentivized.

    Xenos mobility is extremely high on both the tactical and strategic level, and the only decent counterplay marines have is extreme aggression. The only other real (albeit inferior and somewhat miserable to play through) alternative is (ab)using megaFOBs.

    On the tactical level, combat is centered around either pursuing fleeing xenos or denying xenos the ability to flee (mostly with stuns). Stun weapons are highly situational or limited to a small fraction of marines, so chasing is the default way to kill Xenos. To reliably kill even the slower xenos without the use of stun weapons requires pursuing them across multiple screens worth of distance while whittling down their health with weapons that deal slivers of their health per hit. Marines going alone or in small groups for extended periods are extremely easy for xenos to wipe, so the only "effective" strategy for marines is to move in large groups and chase down every xenos they see that they can keep up with until they either kill it or run into enough xenos to stall their charge. Xenos usually flee towards their hive because there are unlikely to be undetected groups of marines between a wounded xenos and safety, so this naturally leads to retreating Xenos drawing the bulk of marine forces straight towards the xenos hive until the majority of Xenos forces confront them and attempt to push them back. At this point one side is either wiped out, or falls back to a choke point at which point the engagement turns into a prolonged slugfest until one side is broken by attrition and forced to retreat (and the chase continues/is reversed).

    The strategic side is simple. Marine strategic mobility sucks. Command has to flail about communicating orders and coordinating different elements of the Marine force, then Marines have to slowly advance as a coherent force, clearing weeds and traps and breaching walls, until they eventually arrive at the destination. Meanwhile, the Queen barks an order and the majority of the hive can independently move to any uncontested location on the map in under a minute. This means that Xenos get to pick their battles if marines give them a chance, and xenos picking their battles means individual squads and entire FOBs being wiped out to the last man and last cade line because there is very little a small fraction of the marine force can do against the majority of the hive besides be a speed bump. There are *exactly* two ways to deny xenos the ability to pick their battles. Either a) build a megaFOB, so there is only one battle for Xenos to pick, or b) keep charging at the hive until the marines reach the nesting areas/ovi'd queen (since the hive is the one location that Xenos might actually defend to the death), or until the entire marine force charges into the grave. MegaFOBs are massive, exhausting, time consuming slugfests that rely on using concentrated marine manpower and concentric layers of defenses to create an environment where the difficulty of securing marine kills/captures and the inevitable occasional screwup by individual xenos attrition the hive slowly into oblivion, despite the massive disadvantages marines face on the defensive. Do-or-die charges are, of course, functionally indistinguishable from metarushes if Xenos fail to put up sufficient resistance.

    Take these two together, and it is obvious why CM gameplay will swing towards either the rush/chase or FOB meta. Today the problem is metarushing. A while back it was dirty marines and their horrible unfun megaFOBs. Tommorow? Pick one or the other, unless some serious rethinking of CM's mechanics is done.

    I remember Tom Dinkle trying a similar strategy on the marine side. We eventually won that round, but Dinkle had to practically beg the marines over commander announcements constantly to follow his tactic of repeatedly falling back to hydro after pushing xenos up to the cave entrances with ballsy charges and CAS/OBs. And if one CO could get marines to follow an actual strategy, it would be Dinkle.
    About Xenos having no problem with organizing, reminder on Xenos side you have 1 person who need to command around 29-39 other players, using ONLY 1 FREQ while marines can talk about seperate things on differant channels, and having 1-4 helping out commanding officer to organize marines. As a player who played a Queen a lot recently, i can tell you that is a pain in the ass.



    Quote Originally Posted by Destrok View Post
    What if I told you that you can stop a marine metarush by having a competent xeno builder

    I literally went hivelord on a random ass LV round, the only one, made some basic fortifications in barrens (2x2 blocks shit) and lo and behold, marines didn't even set foot in containers

    Metarush isn't a fucking problem, xenos are bald and they're getting handheld by the staff team so they don't have any incentive to improve themselves. I am saying this as an all-main, I play marine, I play xeno, I play survivor, I play shipside. I am telling you. Xeno players. Are. Bald. At least most of them are. Much like marines, they have a robust core that scores the majority of the kills, and then they have the cannon fodder.

    If you REALLY wanted to "fix" metarushing, do it with adding mechanics for it, or making maps have better holding spots for xenos, maybe adding more viable hive locations, spawning the queen player 1 minute early so they can choose a hive, or making xenos mature faster, I don't fucking know. There are an INFINITY of solutions that aren't the gay intervention from staff. Like bruh they spawning HEAVY R WALLS IN SOLARIS CHOKES, they ABOMBING, it's fucking arbitrary and feels like they're just powertripping.
    This is everything about metarush i wanted to say, there are more Marines Mains then Xeno Mains which results in having more bald players on Xenos Side (Main reason is, it is much easier to have fun as xenos for new players, becuse it is much easier to score a kill by being Xenos by playing for example Lurker), which often ends up with most of T2/T3 fighting (dying) young, Queen rushing and dying even if marines are not close to her, or half of hive being killed by survivors and the shocked airlocks (Mostly young T2).


    Regarding, whole Solaris Ridge problem i think there could be some steps to help Xenos out a little with Marines rushing them in:
    1) Teach Xenos that you got whole fucking caves system on Solaris Ridge, and hiding in Lambda/Eta is not the best place to hide
    2) Airlocks to Laboratories should be able to withstand the fuel tank explosion, and force marines to use C4 (Which would force marines to actually wait for SL/Spec/Eng to blow Laboratory out, and not marines and medics pushing fuel tanks)
    3) Fix Defcon on Solaris (By not putting a lot of Files, and other IO stuff inside Lambda/ETA)


    Regarding capturing marines i would like to say few things:
    1) Most of the time Xenos dont guard the hosts, and if they do it is being done by single Young T2/T1 which is bad becuse they are bad at capturing stuff
    2) I say something controversial, but I think weapons with Magnetic Harness should drop off once you are nested, from the Marines that are nested or delay on being able to shoot from them should be increased
    3) There should be rule enforcing marines to try to run from the hive, not just suicide Jihadi bomb the nest once you free yourself up (Which i think is resonable, i dont think any Soldier once being captured IRL thinks "Well time to initialize my self destruct")

  6. #26
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    I feel like it's also a change in meta and how people approach the round. Before, Xeno would just spam defense in the caves or near the hive and huddle there, making every single cave choke a meat grinder that marines have to go through. Now, not only are the player skill worse due to the vet core leaving and a lot more new players joining; Xeno seems to be way more aggressive. Unnecessarily aggressive even. This could be the effect of the current slightly flatten power curve between Young and Ancient, but it's just not the way xeno wants to play if they want to combat against marine rushes. Get defense up, bunker down, and abuse chokepoints/corners to your heart's content.

    I really don't see a real way to fix "meta rush", as the very definition of it is reliant on individual staff and players. For me, it's only a "meta" rush (as you can guess, I don't really like the word as its concept is wildly different for each person) if marines are in or near the hive before Xeno gets T3s up, let alone mature T3s. This can easily be mended by just completely (yes, COMPLETELY) remove the aging mechanic and just set each Xeno as 1 stage, with 1 stat sheet; and balance from there. Hell if we just turn the entire stat line into their mature state, it's more than fine enough to help combat this issue.

    But, for others, meta rush can simply be "oh, I have to fight marines before it's 50 minutes into the game".

    That's why, we need the devs and heads to just sit down, hash it out, define meta rush CORRECTLY. If it's about Xeno age, remove that mechanic. If it's about needing to let Xeno build up defense; then we already have DS timer for that. Just make it 12:25 or 12:30 if necessary. For all the "issue" with metarushing on big red, it's still arguably the best map to play for both marines and xeno; since it doesn't have any gimmick that can make it unfun for either side. Xeno can either stall or just rush the marines themselves, and marines can either do mega FOB or go on the offensive.
    Last edited by DefinitelyAlone0309; 12-11-2019 at 02:27 PM.

  7. #27
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    So apparently they do have a real plan for this. We will have to wait and see.

  8. #28
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    If you're pushing into the nest before 1230 it's a metarush

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troika View Post
    If you're pushing into the nest before 1230 it's a metarush
    Then Metarushes doesn't exist. Briefings start 12:20 usually, they take like 3-4 minutes, then flight and other DS shenanigans (around 2 minutes) and this leaves at best 4 minutes to go anywhere. Even on Prison you can't get to Civ that fast.

  10. #30
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    It's happened multiple times on late night lowpop.

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