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Thread: MP hate is a scam to lower RP standards - prove me wrong

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by WitheredGryphon View Post
    I have a hard time believing a first time OoJ charge would receive any sort of discharge.
    Well, I'd argue physically attempting to rip an officer off a suspect does not really qualify for obstruction of justice in the first place. I can't really imagine any case study I ever did where that charge was used like that. Obstruction of justice is closer to literally burying evidence or telling an investigating officer a lie, unless you're under oath, then it's just straight up perjury. If it was used in the context I've seen it in, then yes. You can get a BCD for adultery so you can definitely get one for punching an MP or attempting to intimidate them out of carrying out a lawful order, especially if your CC pushes it hard enough, but this is rare, true. What people are unable to see is that military law is very unforgiving, very vague at times, and with long latitudes and longitudes in terms of punishment (just like our marine law).

    Quote Originally Posted by WitheredGryphon View Post
    You're clearly more qualified to speak on it than I am if you've worked as a JAG, though.
    Unfortunately and just to clarify, I am not presently a JAG. During my final year in my AFROTC program I was given an ELS for academic misconduct, academically discharged, and permanently barred from my program and separated from the USAF. Luckily, my college years gave me a lot of knowledge and I'm still working towards a career in law, this time just in criminal law.

    However, since you sound like someone who studies/works in civil/criminal law, I think that your interpretation in that regard is probably way more valid than mine could be.

  2. #102
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    Im really concerned on why people brought up IRL law into a spaceman video game shooter.
    Whats next. Are we gonna arrest people for pushing an MP out of a tile because they're in harm intent.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakuyoi View Post
    Im really concerned on why people brought up IRL law into a spaceman video game shooter.
    Whats next. Are we gonna arrest people for pushing an MP out of a tile because they're in harm intent.
    HRP has to be realistic. That's why instead of marines being given 15 minute sentences they should be held on suspicion of a crime for 24 hours (including over rounds) until preliminary investigation can be completed.

    Then if they have done it admins can give them a ban equal to the standard sentence for their crime. Murder for example will be a 20 years sentence to life.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakuyoi View Post
    Im really concerned on why people brought up IRL law into a spaceman video game shooter.
    Whats next. Are we gonna arrest people for pushing an MP out of a tile because they're in harm intent.
    Because Marine Law is based on actual law, and nobody is forcing you to talk about it if you don’t want to contribute anything.

    And yes, you can be arrested and perma’d for Sedition under the current Marine Law for simply moving an MP or CMP off a tile. You don’t even have to be in harm intent. That’s how poorly it’s written, and why it’s important to use real-world examples of actual law. Let me give you an example.

    Marine is getting arrested, you don’t know for what. You push (not disarm, but literally move the CMP/MP off). You’re now culpable for the exact same punishment as the accused, who was being perma’d for sedition, because interfering with an arrest is awfully written.

    That’s the kind of nonsense that someone with experience in actual law would be able to point out and fix. That kind of disproportionate punishment doesn’t exist in the real world, and for good reason. There’s tons of examples like this under current Marine Law. It’s shitty that a staff member is dismissing people’s opinions on this for having expertise in the field.
    Last edited by WitheredGryphon; 12-24-2019 at 04:24 PM.

  5. #105
    Admin solidfury7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WitheredGryphon View Post
    Because Marine Law is based on actual law, and nobody is forcing you to talk about it if you don’t want to contribute anything.

    And yes, you can be arrested and perma’d for Sedition under the current Marine Law for simply moving an MP or CMP off a tile. You don’t even have to be in harm intent. That’s how poorly it’s written, and why it’s important to use real-world examples of actual law. Let me give you an example.

    Marine is getting arrested, you don’t know for what. You push (not disarm, but literally move the CMP/MP off). You’re now culpable for the exact same punishment as the accused, who was being perma’d for sedition, because interfering with an arrest is awfully written.

    That’s the kind of nonsense that someone with experience in actual law would be able to point out and fix. That kind of disproportionate punishment doesn’t exist in the real world, and for good reason. It’s shitty that a staff member is dismissing people’s opinions on this for having expertise in the field.
    That isn't a "bad design", it's intentional. If you're that new that you can't remember the round start lynching, mutinies and riots before marine law was altered to its current state, youll realise that this current marine law is the best up to date (it still has some glaring flaws here and there)

    If you, as a random individual decide to interfere with the justice system, and interfere with an lawfully, without any knowledge of the situation, you're liable for assisting their escape. So, if you're deciding to interfere with the capture of a Mutineer, you are assisting him, as such, you're a criminal.

    The marine law system is left intentionally flexible due to the fact that this is a role play server, we cannot have the intensely complex nature of real law instated in to a game. It didn't work in the past when we had it, it won't work now.

    This dumbed down system isn't flawless, but neither is every single justice system in reality.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by solidfury7 View Post
    That isn't a "bad design", it's intentional. If you're that new that you can't remember the round start lynching, mutinies and riots before marine law was altered to its current state, youll realise that this current marine law is the best up to date (it still has some glaring flaws here and there)

    If you, as a random individual decide to interfere with the justice system, and interfere with an lawfully, without any knowledge of the situation, you're liable for assisting their escape. So, if you're deciding to interfere with the capture of a Mutineer, you are assisting him, as such, you're a criminal.

    The marine law system is left intentionally flexible due to the fact that this is a role play server, we cannot have the intensely complex nature of real law instated in to a game. It didn't work in the past when we had it, it won't work now.

    This dumbed down system isn't flawless, but neither is every single justice system in reality.
    Clearly the mod who was trying to make fun of the thread with the ironic snowball argument would disagree. Because his hyperbole is reality. And I’d love to see a poll of support of people who are in favor of you perma’ing them for simply moving an MP/CMP conducting an arrest off a tile. I think you’d find you are in the vocal minority.
    Last edited by WitheredGryphon; 12-24-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  7. #107
    CM-SS13 Host ThesoldierLLJK's Avatar
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    Why marine law sucks and I am going to fight to change the whole goddamn thing.

    Be Me
    Accidently break window
    MP comes screaming DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY
    Comply with MP
    Get brigged for 30 minutes
    adminhelp: "Hey man I roleplayed and this MP threw me in the brig for 30 minutes cause I didnt have the skills to fix a window"
    admeme has responded with IC: In Character issue.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThesoldierLLJK View Post
    Why marine law sucks and I am going to fight to change the whole goddamn thing.

    Be Me
    Accidently break window
    MP comes screaming DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY
    Comply with MP
    Get brigged for 30 minutes
    adminhelp: "Hey man I roleplayed and this MP threw me in the brig for 30 minutes cause I didnt have the skills to fix a window"
    admeme has responded with IC: In Character issue.
    Destruction of property is an odd one having a wild range of possibilities for sentences and, worst of all, no legitimate minimum sentence just a "repair broken thing" - but if you're not an engi you often can't repair the broken thing, so the MP is left with making a decision on the range of ??? - 30 minutes.

    That's not the only issue with Marine Law but it is a significant one.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexpkeaton View Post
    Destruction of property is an odd one having a wild range of possibilities for sentences and, worst of all, no legitimate minimum sentence just a "repair broken thing" - but if you're not an engi you often can't repair the broken thing, so the MP is left with making a decision on the range of ??? - 30 minutes.

    That's not the only issue with Marine Law but it is a significant one.
    Heck, if it's a broken windowframe it's impossible to fix.

  10. #110
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    Isn't the issue then that my fellow MPs consider it repair / 30 and not repair njp 5 10 15... 30 as a few possibilities
    How clear must it be? There is no 100% idiot proof without making it huge and unreadable. This is not to say clarity won't help. But minimum and maximum does not mean option a or b only.

    Edit: I would love to see more examples of where you all believe marine law is unclear. If someone has a few in mind make a post and others add to it. I have been working on a marine law update to present with reasons explenations and even a small map update suggestion.
    Last edited by Nichodemius; 12-24-2019 at 10:40 PM.

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