Rank andere communication

[Nichodemius]

Preface:
This will be a bit long as I usually try tot be complete.
Also there will be examples some of you might have been in.
There is no reason to start discussions here about a specific case.
This is purely about rank, chain of command andere the issues with communication.

Problems:
- People seem tot misunderstand who can order who (nog even considering lawfull or not)
- Everyone and his mom contacts the XO CO skipping people like SO CMP RO CMO
- XO CO accept all these plights begin tot meddle and want stuff resolved fast (they do not delegate) causing issues.

TL;DR solutions:
- XO CO should send issues over to the departement head.
- If the person that brought forth the issue could contact that head XO CO should also say stop bothering me unless it is important.
- People should learn to contact their departement heads and to be frank not RP buddy with XO CO for "immunity". This is a military chain of command.
- Departement heads should tell XO CO to (respectfully) stop half ass messing with their departement.
- If the meddleing caused too many issues CMP should be contacted, he should warn them for Neglect of duty even in case of CO and if it continues arrest or contact high command depending on who.

Examples:

Generalized examples

- CMO is te head of medical andere research including any possible xeno breeding or drugs being made.
All too often the CO is just asked directly.
Licht issue why have a CMO even? CO XO can overrule but he is just ignored.

- CT refuses service marine goes to SO (and I'm being kind here have seen plenty of direct CO XO contact)
MP's are ordered to arrest for NOD. So we head in state charge NOD no RO in sight, have people asking why NOD pushing blocking. Maybe even resisting arrest.
So now we have 1 or more CT in cell. And find out said marine was asking a item out of stock or ordered by RO not to be given out.
This is legal there was no crime committed. But even then i need to make the initial arrest (see spoiler) and resisting arrest and interference with arrest does not get removed if old crime is deemed innocent.

So now should I arrest the officer? How about adding a NOD that can be done to any officer.

Solution:
Contact the RO to look into the matter it is his department. That was all!
Don't like him not giving out HEFAs to PVT or PFC? Only then should you inform XO or if not available CO.

Big detailed example:
As a dirty MP I notice a researcher giving out as he calls it 'Space drugs' even offering me one. He drops the pill I ask space drugs? He confirms.
This is in requisitions he was let in. I proceed by ordering him to the ground state he is under arrest for Neglect of duty. He doesn't go to ground but asks why NOD I tell him I'll explain in detail while in brig but because he offered me space drugs. I have no obligation to explain and make a law discussion there. He begins to move to the exit but has no access. He moves to flaps and that's where I stun him. Several CTs begin questioning me a MP is there too and the researcher contacts the XO.

Now trying to get the researcher to brig 2 marines keep watch one blocks but moves away as the second MP comes into sight the MP seems to doubt if he wants to stop me or not blocks me but then gives me passage. But him being there scared off the marines but a CMO begins to question me. The XO demands I explain myself I ignore her for now as I'm watching the situation and have a stunbaton now ready in case the marines or MP CMO did interfere.

I am inside the brig mind you this all is required => brig only!
The XO gives me ultimatums explain or researcher will be appealed on principle. Researcher still edging on the XO asking me to explain not even in cell. (Appeals are made once you are in the cell) I try to give the XO the awnser NOD is the Charge let me first explain and process the researcher. Before explaining to you several times. She would not relent. So after telling her that a few times I continue to strip and detain the researcher. Not even adding time for resisting minimal NOD time. I decide to keep the radio off. As it has been used to escalate. The researcher clearly just wants the XO to step in. It is fully in my right. I again explain to XO to wait I need to tell the researcher what's up first yes she non stop kept spamming me. Because I cannot type in multiple channels and directed to multiple people at once but I am dealing with 2 and a MP that is meddling the researcher had time to a help about radio. Now I have another person to awnser. Who after a short reply asks me to copy paste all the responses the researcher gave over radio!

Mind you I haven't been able to explain researcher his right to appeal or the detail why NOD. Half been arguing with XO a MP stepped in to give radio to the one I am processing. And now a ahelp too!

In the end the space drugs where not actually space drugs bad RP on researcher. Still he wasn't allowed to give them out was even told not to by XO. So he was testing (read giving out like cookies) them unauthorized on anyone who would take one.

Oh and we have a CMP who is by rank in things concerning ML above the XO! And he is my head not the XO.
I'll let the ahelp be as it is though my character was fully in ML to deny the radio, my character believed it was abused. This is pure IC and not a OOC rule.

Solution is simple:
- XO tell the CMP to look into it. Also know the CMP is the ONLY head ABOVE you when its about ML. No other head is above you.
- MP tell the CMP if you believe I made mistakes he is our head.
- CT marines CMO tell the CMP, contact someone to ask the CMP
- CMP tell everyone to shut it you will look into it!

Being a MP main I never feel any hate to anyone even rubbing Chloe the wrong way it is this RP I like. How can I uphold the law with as least as possible force needed. Convince people to do stuff different if they are chuckle fucks. This challenge I love. But this is the first time a issue actually made me wonder hmmm what now? Arrest the XO? Complaint about the staff that made a mistake in my eyes? Arrest anyone who blocked me? Next time perhaps add the resist 25 mins total so people fear resisting?

Chain of command, know your rank and position, delegate.

A other pool of examples:
- God mode XO bringing flood lights (even asking a mp to carry them to DS) doing medical and req prep work to give marines more stuff. Delegate you have staff in every department. Also uncalled for floodlights because they can't be destroyed meta much?
- CMP ordering req for stuff like attachies. Chain of command

- Cross department orders. No a CE CMP cannot order a SL MP or combat medic for anything just because higher rank.
MPs are there for security not dragging floodlights or xeno bodies. A SL is not your personal vend me squad attachments goon.
Order a MP to guard fine but the MP can cross reference to the CMP if its OK.

- Contact your own head not everything to the CO. He should be free to roam and work with important issues. Instead of first come first serve oops a big issue is now out of control and too late.

What do you guys think should heads retake the control?

[juliansl]

Yeah the CO and XO should rarely order things like that directly, they should focuse on the operation.

I'd like to just point out that in your example about the cargo tech:

CT refuses service marine goes to SO (and I'm being kind here have seen plenty of direct CO XO contact)
MP's are ordered to arrest for NOD. So we head in state charge NOD no RO in sight, have people asking why NOD pushing blocking. Maybe even resisting arrest.
So now we have 1 or more CT in cell. And find out said marine was asking a item out of stock or ordered by RO not to be given out.
This is legal but even then resisting arrest and interference with arrest does not get removed if old crime is deemed innocent.

This is not a case of neglect of duty as the cargo tech is fully within his rights to deny service unless ordered to by someone with a higher rank.

[Nichodemius]

Yes that is the point I made. I was just told to arrest the CT for NOD by a commissioned officer.
As such I had to arrest him. I have no options I must see the spoiler.

I then found out there was no crime. Just a marine being a goofball.
So while I then can remove the time for the unlawful NOD arrest order, resisting arrest stands.

Lucky no one interfered because I would have to jail them too.
So someone was forced in a cell for no mistake and then remains in slightly due to him resisting.
I have to arrest the commissioned officer for prevecation. Lucky the round was ending.

All because people skip the department head the RO. If they checked with RO or just said hey RO look into this.
Nothing would happen. If a crime was committed then the RO could contact MPs

And some may say this is ML being bad. I say this is a IC communication issue.
Heads need to be heads XO CO need to delegate. And people need to respect chain of command.
CiC and the heads should be the driving force in this so let's hope they listen.

I as CMP will actively tell anyone yelling over any comms to anyone even if to CO. That I the CMP will look into it and to stop causing a fuss I will be with them shortly.
This is why I as CMP barely make arrests and am in brig as much as possible. I will follow and watch the MPs but let them do their thing without being bothered by a million voices.

[TeknoKot]

i wish i could just execute any IO rushing squad attachment preps once they pull their ranks on me

[sg2002]

I think you're mixing up many separate issues here.

Firstly, the CT declining attachment example. Enlisted ranks cannot refuse any orders from higher ranks or officers. If CMP comes and asks for an attachment, you cannot refuse him, unless you have an explicit order from RO. This then can be only overruled by XO and CO. Now, if you are a marine and you get declined a completely reasonable attachment request, it makes sense to contact your SO, since he has a direct line of contact to both RO and XO\CO if RO is being unreasonable. Now directly ordering CT arrest is pretty dump on SO part, but that's as per usual.

Second issue is that SOs are generally ignored by everyone. And many marines prefer to directly contact higher ranks if they know that those are listening. Here's where XO comes into the picture. His role is exactly this, to execute day to day operation of the battalion. As such it's his duty to oversee that each squad has somebody listening and willing to resolve their issues in a timely manner. As such it's up to XO to establish the proper chain of communication and protect it. If I see that I have a competent SO, I'll do my best to work through him as XO.

Third issue is that quite a few XOs and COs are ignorant in the marine law, or choose to break it. That's why the CMP is there, since he's capable of putting even the COs in line.

TLDR: establishing and protecting the chain of command is XOs main job, unfortunately many people including COs prefer to undermine it and it's understandable, since ineffective chain of command is often a complete shitshow.

[Nichodemius]

i wish i could just execute any IO rushing squad attachment preps once they pull their ranks on me

IO rank is oddly placed. Same with PO they are with you on combat and operations. As such same department and they are commissioned officers.
I say split the department operations is PO TC IO SEA under XO

If a CMP / IO takes a motion detector out of req he is committing theft.
If a CMP / IO takes stuff out of engineering he is committing theft.
If a CMP / IO takes stuff out or squad req he is committing theft.

It is not because security has access we can take everything that isn't bolted down.
So we can see access to a area does not mean free reign on items.
On a note we have access to regular prep vendors in case we need to arm ourselves. This is not theft.

Now if they order a Marine to break in and steal it for them its unlawfull.
If they order a MT to give stuff from engineering it is still ordering them to steal it for you.
The person you order having access does not change your ordering them to take it for you!
Asking them is fine they can hand it out if allowed by their head.
Why do you think MPs ask the CMP if they can give the surgical tray.

Why do IOs think they can order you to give it to them? I say deny it and call a MP on em is RAI.
Only once SO XO CO tells you to you give it. But since they are your department you can say no to CMP but not IO weird I know RAW.

[Nichodemius]

I think you're mixing up many separate issues here.

Firstly, the CT declining attachment example. Enlisted ranks cannot refuse any orders from higher ranks or officers. If CMP comes and asks for an attachment, you cannot refuse him, unless you have an explicit order from RO. This then can be only overruled by XO and CO.

Tell me how can CMP order you without breaking any of the following?
- Officers have authority over their own department but must obey the orders of the CO and XO or the person in command of the operation. (So CMP has authority over req how?)
- No equipment may be taken from the Requisitions Bay by non-requisitions personnel without the RO’s approval. His decisions on such matters may only be overridden by the Commanding Officer or Executive Officer. (So him taking is stealing him ordering anyone to take it for him is ordering theft)

CMP can order them in security matters and general issues only! This is why CMP can't order the operation until he is aCO.

Now directly ordering CT arrest is pretty dump on SO part, but that's as per usual.

I didn't say the marine cant contact the SO I do advocate not the CO or XO and as I said the issue there is the SO should not contact the MP but should contact the head aka RO to look into it. Seems you agree with what I wrote but didn't register it.

Second issue is that SOs are generally ignored by everyone. And many marines prefer to directly contact higher ranks if they know that those are listening. Here's where XO comes into the picture. His role is exactly this, to execute day to day operation of the battalion. As such it's his duty to oversee that each squad has somebody listening and willing to resolve their issues in a timely manner. As such it's up to XO to establish the proper chain of communication and protect it. If I see that I have a competent SO, I'll do my best to work through him as XO.

SOs are ignored. So there is a SO listening people just prefer contacting higher. So I ask XOs to delegate so SO (and other heads) can do their job. You say:
I'll do my best to work through him as XO. This is what I ask more XOs to do, again why are you acting like we disagree???

Third issue is that quite a few XOs and COs are ignorant in the marine law, or choose to break it. That's why the CMP is there, since he's capable of putting even the COs in line.

Again I say heads should take control and even get the CMP involved if XO or CO fails to let them do their job. This is exactly what I'm saying. Now about ignorance of ML this is why CMP is by default above XO in ML and CO is not above it it just needs high command and is a whitelist role for a reason. Trust me break ML and get demoted allot as CO have fun heh.

You seem to agree and advocate the same changes yet start with me mixing up? How are our points different.
Heads need to become heads again not just role+

[sg2002]

It's not that i disagree with you, I'm just trying to point out that you brought up multiple different issues in your theme of heads being unimportant. IMHO the only unimportant and generally ignored heads are CE, but that's the department problem and CMO.

CMP can order you as per this:

Enlisted personnel must obey any lawful order given to them by commissioned officers, with priority given to the CO, XO and those of their department. Additionally, enlisted combat marines must obey the orders of enlisted personnel with higher rank than theirs.

See, it never says that officers cannot order outside of their department, it's just that department head orders have a priority all ranks being equal. So if you're a CT and CMP comes out and orders you to give him something from Req, you have to do so, unless you have explicit order from RO not to. Basically if you're enlisted and somebody of higher rank orders you, you follow the orders, regardless of the department.

[Nichodemius]

I think it is not regardless of department and also depends on what the order is about.

- Officers have authority over their own department but must obey the orders of the CO and XO or the person in command of the operation.
- However, Command Officers are still your superiors, and while they may normally be unable to order you to go clean the restrooms, you still have to heed their orders on matters not related to Marine Law such as ship security, so if potential hostiles are on board and the Commanding Officer wants an MP guarding medbay they have to do it so long as this doesn't contravene Marine Law (for instance, if you're the only MP and there are prisoners in the brig).
- Although doctors and the CMO are labeled as civilians, they're still part of the USS Almayer Crew and should still listen to any orders the CO and XO give out. Refusing to listen to other command staff wouldn't be a Marine Law rule-break unless directly ordered to listen to them.
- Marines are required to follow all lawful orders from their superiors and required NOT to follow unlawful orders. ... Unlawful orders are those orders that, when carried out, would result in a breach of Marine Law. (NOD and FFP usually block most orders when its cross department I have yet to receive a order I can't deny when not from my own department and before MP I did many roles)

These examples are already for medical, RO and security overrule your general line. (Specific beats general ) I think the line you reference is broad and as such means more into general orders.

But I'll ask in rule clarification. Edit: I would love to hear a few examples of cross department orders for me to think about. But since its not the main focus of this post PM me. I really want to know a few hard ones. I think it helps me preform my role better.

About the only ignored head being the CE? I see heads being bypassed every round. You mention yourself the SO. But xeno breeding is asked to CO directly. Cargo refusals go straight to SO XO CO and then MP not RO. XO CO check on MPs constantly instead of contacting the CMP who might even already be talking to the MP.
Build projects get asked to CO over comma who doesn't care or even knows what's being build and says sure. I always see at least a few of these every round. Heads are just regular+ so no I believe the problem is bigger and want to wake up heads and CiC especially XO CO CMP.!

Daft auto correct and auto fill I miss my laptop!

[sg2002]

I see, you posted in the rules clarification and I'm sure you get the same answer there.

Also check out this thread. Especially answer by Heretic87 at the end. Basically you want department members to have positional authority and be subordinate to department head only. Which I think is an overkill. You know what the elevator operator disorder is? When some person gets some little piece of power and then becomes a massive dick about using it. In CM this generally happens with CT or MPs, I don't think we should encourage this.

Also, SO is not a department head.