My take on CM midgame and some ways how to avoid it

[Jackson T. Murphy]

Good for you and I'm happy you find happiness where I stopped after those years.

Also I'm not robust, not at all. That is why I wear heavy armor and use slugs, instead of light armor buckshot shootgun + QF Pulse rifle combo.

CBT deconstruction is only one step and it isn't even in right direction. New RP oriented server, more focus on marines, less focus on Xenos, rounds that can play themselfs and with new threats like UPP/WY/Zombies/Something else. CM abandoned what lets SS13 stand in one good spot for many, many years. Various, unknown threats, each round different and such. This would be perfect and I bet you would find resource menagement even more enjoyable since it will really count.
In 50-50 scenario, every bullet counts. Every piece of metal counts as this can give you an edge over other team.

I'm also not a type of guy that has his medals under every post, I don't care about K/D. Anti-CBT works in my favour and I think it would work in everyone's favour (outside benomains).

Rounds are focused on "SPEED! RUSH! PUSH" since early days of benobiased gameplay, but it might be shock comming from my posts: Benobiased gameplay had nothing to do with it. In the end, CM is just a game, just as CS, just as TF2, just as everything, people play to win.

Thanks for the reply, CABAL, and I shouldn't have implied that you were robust, based on just your posts before I've actually play some rounds with you but my sentiments remain the same. I DO think we need some more RP driven elements, but i think we CAN incorporate them in the current server. I may be just a hopeful optimist at this point, but hey, I can dream, Right?

P.S.: Don't take my rant as any sort of attack, i just felt like getting that stuff out there, as it had been percolating for quite a bit from forums browsing.

[Pigeon]

Chokepoints and CBT are a staple of all games. The point of the mechanic is to prevent slippery slope. Basically if you have side x and y and side x starts winning they will always win with the momentum and there no point to play y or continue the game. The counter is stuff like this. You see it in TF2 with ass locations for final capture, you see it in starcraft where main base is ass to take, you see it in dota 2 where the barracks are ass to destroy, and so on.

So CBT in CMss13 problem is that aliens are really dam powerful so when the anti slippery slope is applied and marines suffer heavy attrition from the fight the aliens get insane momentum and can charge to victory(or should be able to). Either that or it opposite and aliens attrition themselves to death one or the other will occur.

TBH the CBT situation inst that bad. It usually at least solves it self within a hour or two making the round last 2-3hrs at best. Trying to seige fort autismo with 50 sentries and 5 mortars blasting your ass along with 9000 marines hiding behind their 7 cades is even more aids. Literally run out of food and water IRL when playing ice or get told to KYS by queen momma command.

Now big question. You talk about CBT, remember when it was an ICE round and marines landed LZ2 and pushed to the crash ship? The boilers literally stopped marine pushes for about an hour or two before admins literally deleted the ship to force the aliens out. That. That is the true essence of CBT.

[Just L]

Chokepoints and CBT are a staple of all games. The point of the mechanic is to prevent slippery slope. Basically if you have side x and y and side x starts winning they will always win with the momentum and there no point to play y or continue the game. The counter is stuff like this. You see it in TF2 with ass locations for final capture, you see it in starcraft where main base is ass to take, you see it in dota 2 where the barracks are ass to destroy, and so on.

So CBT in CMss13 problem is that aliens are really dam powerful so when the anti slippery slope is applied and marines suffer heavy attrition from the fight the aliens get insane momentum and can charge to victory(or should be able to). Either that or it opposite and aliens attrition themselves to death one or the other will occur.

TBH the CBT situation inst that bad. It usually at least solves it self within a hour or two making the round last 2-3hrs at best. Trying to seige fort autismo with 50 sentries and 5 mortars blasting your ass along with 9000 marines hiding behind their 7 cades is even more aids. Literally run out of food and water IRL when playing ice or get told to KYS by queen momma command.

Now big question. You talk about CBT, remember when it was an ICE round and marines landed LZ2 and pushed to the crash ship? The boilers literally stopped marine pushes for about an hour or two before admins literally deleted the ship to force the aliens out. That. That is the true essence of CBT.

The difference with CM is that you barely need to use any teamwork in CM to stall a marine push. You can dedicated about 10-15% of the hive (as in, 3-6 xenos) at any chokepoint to almost indefinitely stall the marines. The power balance is completely out of whack when a single T3 with some support can stop the entire marine force from pushing (And it's due to neuro gas being overpowered as shit, we all know this) or at least being unable to push without massive casualties.

In something like Team Fortress 2, it requires teamwork from both sides to breach or defend the final point on a payload map or control point map, and usually an equal number of players attacking or defending. In CM you can stop 90% of the marine force with 10% of the xenos due to bad map design and poorly thought out mechanics like neuro gas/prae gas.
In TF2 you will usually have a few sentry nests, some pyros/demos/heavies/soldiers/medics/snipers on the final point, and for the offensive team to break a stalemate on that they can go about it in several ways, such as using Ubercharge, organizing a flank from multiple entrances (Only the shitty maps have no alternate routes or flanks, like Dustbowl and Goldrush), or getting organized enough to have a few demomen or soldiers take out the sentries.

It also takes only 5-10 minutes to take the last point, contrasted with CM requiring 1+ hour just to BREAK a stalemate, and then another 2+ hours fighting the xenos, and then usually another hour chasing down the last xXYungRunner69Xx and queen who want to delay the game for another hour.

In CM, the marines are not allowed to break chokepoints, as they are almost always underground or covered by heavily reinforced metal. The two best chokepoint breakers for marines are CAS and the mortar, to the point that you WILL lose as marines if you have bad fire support. OB has been nerfed to the point that it is impossible to die to without the marines organizing themselves extremely well, and even then it's heavily reliant on luck for it to actually hit.

The tank can't break chokepoints until it gets the LTB cannon, since nothing will reach far enough into the chokes, or the tank simply isn't allowed to enter the choke (See Big Red, LV, Corsat, etc.)
Caves are one of the big issues too. Caves are just lazy map design, and need to be left out of future maps. It's not fun to fight in samey-looking areas where you know every corner or two will have another 2 tile wide chokepoint to stall you at for another 20 minutes, coupled with sticky resin and thick resin walls everywhere. If CAS could hit anywhere on the map, it would reduce the length of rounds significantly and hopefully encourage xenos to go on the offensive more. As someone who is great with JTAC stuff, calling in defensive fire missions is harder than calling in offensive ones, since you have a higher chance of some dumbass unga getting in the way.

[Pigeon]

The difference with CM is that you barely need to use any teamwork in CM to stall a marine push. You can dedicated about 10-15% of the hive (as in, 3-6 xenos) at any chokepoint to almost indefinitely stall the marines. The power balance is completely out of whack when a single T3 with some support can stop the entire marine force from pushing (And it's due to neuro gas being overpowered as shit, we all know this) or at least being unable to push without massive casualties.

In something like Team Fortress 2, it requires teamwork from both sides to breach or defend the final point on a payload map or control point map, and usually an equal number of players attacking or defending. In CM you can stop 90% of the marine force with 10% of the xenos due to bad map design and poorly thought out mechanics like neuro gas/prae gas.
In TF2 you will usually have a few sentry nests, some pyros/demos/heavies/soldiers/medics/snipers on the final point, and for the offensive team to break a stalemate on that they can go about it in several ways, such as using Ubercharge, organizing a flank from multiple entrances (Only the shitty maps have no alternate routes or flanks, like Dustbowl and Goldrush), or getting organized enough to have a few demomen or soldiers take out the sentries.

It also takes only 5-10 minutes to take the last point, contrasted with CM requiring 1+ hour just to BREAK a stalemate, and then another 2+ hours fighting the xenos, and then usually another hour chasing down the last xXYungRunner69Xx and queen who want to delay the game for another hour.

In CM, the marines are not allowed to break chokepoints, as they are almost always underground or covered by heavily reinforced metal. The two best chokepoint breakers for marines are CAS and the mortar, to the point that you WILL lose as marines if you have bad fire support. OB has been nerfed to the point that it is impossible to die to without the marines organizing themselves extremely well, and even then it's heavily reliant on luck for it to actually hit.

The tank can't break chokepoints until it gets the LTB cannon, since nothing will reach far enough into the chokes, or the tank simply isn't allowed to enter the choke (See Big Red, LV, Corsat, etc.)
Caves are one of the big issues too. Caves are just lazy map design, and need to be left out of future maps. It's not fun to fight in samey-looking areas where you know every corner or two will have another 2 tile wide chokepoint to stall you at for another 20 minutes, coupled with sticky resin and thick resin walls everywhere. If CAS could hit anywhere on the map, it would reduce the length of rounds significantly and hopefully encourage xenos to go on the offensive more. As someone who is great with JTAC stuff, calling in defensive fire missions is harder than calling in offensive ones, since you have a higher chance of some dumbass unga getting in the way.

We have a map like you suggest it called prison. Literally level the map and delete all the chokepoints and then CAS the queen with that 360 no scope 420 fatties.

Chokepoints don't exist for aliens only. Where do marines always defend? Chokepoints. When you have a massive open map like Trijent where there is literally only checkpoints for chokepoints marines are absolutely terrible. And know what? Can CAS right into labs on that map. Can OB the boilers gassing the marines 5 miles away anywhere. But marines HATE that map.

Aliens like chokepoints, they love CBTing the marines to hell. But marines love it more, they love there chokepoints, they DEMAND there chokepoints. The deep realilty is that marines are the ones that really really want those chokepoints so they can sit behind there 7 cades with 42 machine guns to extend the round till LTB-TOW, nuke, aliens suicide from boredom, or QM ordered suicide.

[Avalanchee]

Aliens like chokepoints, they love CBTing the marines to hell. But marines love it more, they love there chokepoints, they DEMAND there chokepoints. The deep realilty is that marines are the ones that really really want those chokepoints so they can sit behind there 7 cades with 42 machine guns to extend the round till LTB-TOW, nuke, aliens suicide from boredom, or QM ordered suicide.

This is the most absurd opinion so far, literally copypasta material.

No marine player on earth enjoys this. It's the shittiest type of gameplay CM offers. On god, if one of the most biased marine mains is making a rant about it, then there's something wrong. Regarding the tank, it shouldn't be in the fucking game at all and devs don't want it gone just because they spent two weeks coding it.

Check the votes or ask in discord, only NPCs and support players want them and it's only because they don't find CM combat entertaining or they simply suck at it.

[PogoMarimo]

Is their enjoyment less valid than yours?

[Avalanchee]

Is their enjoyment less valid than yours?

They're a minority.

[Twizz]

Personally im kinda 'Eh' and 'Meh' about the usual rounds the past weeks. Its the constant LV > BR > LV > BR > -One of the 4 other maps- > LV > BR, repeat. Yea, CBT is a pain. I do agree. But how about we vote for a bigger map instead then, yes, we sacrifice ourselves to the empire of Lag, but honestly, some lag is better than hours-on-end CBT or the standard BR Mega-FoB cancer which has turned into basically roundly WO without xeno waves. If theres 2 boilers that manage to get a rhythm of shooting just when the other's gas is disappearing, there is essentially only a 5% chance of pushing through with significant losses, part of this is because of how hilariously overbuffed the boiler was for (?) reasons. Gas ticks and processes faster, meaning you can and most likely will go blind and deaf in 1 second of existing with a life-tick inside the neuro-cloud, or get stunned in the cloud. The only times where CBT will be effectively 'countered' is, when a few ungas charge quick and hard enough to make them retreat or score a kill, or they simply move to another front, put pressure on there and force the boiler to retreat or move to the other front.
All in all what I guess im trying to say is; Yes. CBT is a pain, especially on LV and BR. But think about voting for other maps then. They may be laggy, but they're a change in the flow and are less CBT supportive.

[Jackson T. Murphy]

This is the most absurd opinion so far, literally copypasta material.

No marine player on earth enjoys this. It's the shittiest type of gameplay CM offers. On god, if one of the most biased marine mains is making a rant about it, then there's something wrong. Regarding the tank, it shouldn't be in the fucking game at all and devs don't want it gone just because they spent two weeks coding it.

Check the votes or ask in discord, only NPCs and support players want them and it's only because they don't find CM combat entertaining or they simply suck at it.

They're a minority.

Avalanchee,

Just because those who disagree with you are in the minority of this specific Poll, doesn't make the way they play any less fun for them. Hell, a good choke point fight can be fun, if, and only IF, the Marines can manage to pin the xenos in Place. How many of these areas are completely in-accessible to a flanking maneuver, even if it means going quite a bit around the chokepoint? So what if the Marines can't punch thru? Why is it that you MUST push thru to win?

Attrition fights suck, we all know that, but just because the Marines gets stuck in at a chokepoint, must they CONTINUE to press that chokepoint? To your points earlier in this thread and in others like it, Marines can be very, very dumb; to the point of "these guys could never figure out how to turn a computer on, much less figure out how to play SS13", but this is where leaders on the ground can GET the Marines to flank, or to pull back and strike again, rather than "feed the meat grinder" continuously? These leaders don't have to be a role, but some dumb PFC with an idea and a plan to carry it out can be really fun.

I don't really see you playing during high pop hours, and I don't think that I have really played with you before, but the "Unga Today, Unga Tomorrow, Unga FOREVER" attitude I see in a lot of players, especially some of the most famous players, is part of the issue. Again, this game DOESN'T have to be about getting the most personal kills, but it can be. It doesn't have to be about your KD ratio, but it can be. Just because you enjoy YOUR way of playing, doesn't mean that I or others have to enjoy playing that way ALL THE TIME.

Make of this what you will, or reference my early posts in this thread talking with CABAL.

Cheers,
~Murphy

[Avalanchee]

Avalanchee,

Hell, a good choke point fight can be fun, if, and only IF, the Marines can manage to pin the xenos in Place. How many of these areas are completely in-accessible to a flanking maneuver, even if it means going quite a bit around the chokepoint? So what if the Marines can't punch thru? Why is it that you MUST push thru to win?

Attrition fights suck, we all know that, but just because the Marines gets stuck in at a chokepoint, must they CONTINUE to press that chokepoint? To your points earlier in this thread and in others like it, Marines can be very, very dumb; to the point of "these guys could never figure out how to turn a computer on, much less figure out how to play SS13", but this is where leaders on the ground can GET the Marines to flank, or to pull back and strike again, rather than "feed the meat grinder" continuously? These leaders don't have to be a role, but some dumb PFC with an idea and a plan to carry it out can be really fun.

I don't really see you playing during high pop hours, and I don't think that I have really played with you before, but the "Unga Today, Unga Tomorrow, Unga FOREVER" attitude I see in a lot of players, especially some of the most famous players, is part of the issue. Again, this game DOESN'T have to be about getting the most personal kills, but it can be. It doesn't have to be about your KD ratio, but it can be. Just because you enjoy YOUR way of playing, doesn't mean that I or others have to enjoy playing that way ALL THE TIME.

Make of this what you will, or reference my early posts in this thread talking with CABAL.

Cheers,
~Murphy

I quit after the pop hits 200 because CM becomes unplayable. That simple.

There are no flanks to use on most of the maps and if so, then they're again a stupid 2x2 chokepoint or a sticky & thick resin maze full of bored T2 players (Filtration caves & South Filtration caves) and that's why everyone eventually ends up in one or more meatgrinders. Map changes literally force us to use those chokepoints and it's atrocious. Where is the fun in getting neurogassed while pushing or being smacked with a PB when trying to make some moves as a xeno. What's so entertaining about sitting behind cades and shooting a defender over and over again when it returns every 30 seconds, fully healed or playing as said defender and not contributing to the round in any way just like 80% of the hive that's sitting behind the walls, watching a single boiler hold off one push after another.

I never said it's about the KD ratio or something but an overwhelming majority of both xeno and marine player alike enjoy actual combat (LV central fog drop T-Fort like fights) and not this. It's also a reason why most people, including survs just rush the hive before they're able to setup a CBT of a maze.

Though, I suppose it might be entertaining for some players to sit behind a plasteel cade two hours and click the cade every 30 seconds to repair it but you'll get bored after exactly.. 2? yeah 2 rounds of doing this.

tl:dr it's not fun.