Are shotguns too hard to counter attack? [Poll]

[CABAL]

Having been stunlocked by slugs in the past 24 hours your argument holds little sway to me.
Also, if increasing shooting delay was an option was was nuero completely nerf'd by the rework yet shotgun bullshit kept intact?

You keep confusing terms. "Stunlocked" means to stay laying on the floor in the same tile and never standing up. "Chainstunned" is to be stunned, get up, maybe walk a bit and then getting stunned again.
So no, you weren't stunlocked by slugs, at best you were chainstunned. Chainstun with slug requires a fair ammount of skill and luck on marine side. RNG miss, RNG scatter and RNG evasion, slow single projectile, fairly slow rate of fire, high FF potential that leads not only to damage, but also long stun on marines.
Slugs were nerfed and I would argue they shouldn't as they are practically useless against T3's and certain T2's, while also worst possible choice to fight runners and other fast benos.

Neuro wasn't just directly nerfed, it was reworked. In the past you shoot once and marine get up after a while (it was the same as Queen neuro, T1 shouldn't have ability that is as powerfull as Queen's), you could shoot again to extend the stun (stunlock). This however could also lead to sentinel/spitter downfall as it was never pernament, guy with magharness buckshot shotgun could just straight up decimate you if you decided to slash him at the same time.

Now you have to hit 3 times to put marine down and then shoot more at lying corpse to put him into sleep. This made captures more reliable and safer. First hit slows marine down greatly, second stops him from saying anything meaningfull on comms, slowed down more and blurred vision, thrid stuns and prevents marine from using weapons for a short while after standing up.

Slug is only viable against Defenders, Sentinels, Spitters, Drone and maybe Warrior. For how much you risk with taking slug, the reward is bearable, but thats it.

[Gwuhja]

You just proved my point. Because currently ranged is stronger than melee as it is much safer as marines have lots of time to shoot you and then buckshot you when you finally get into melee. Then you are stunned and killed. So, marines are too strong in close range if there is a group so only ancient T3s even try it. In other words, while xenos are a primarily melee faction the marine strong close range firepower and the weakness of aliens to hurt them quickly in melee results in their primary power being greatly weakened. As such, they have to fall back on things that work, such as boilers.

Additionally, marines can safely hide behind cades where the majority of xenos cannot get to them. This further makes boilers and other ranged castes necessary, which therefore necessitates defending them.

Have you not played the game?

If you're really trying to tell me the xeno faction are primarily ranged, rather than melee but screwed by nerfing and wider gameplay mechanics, then please give me a xeno that can equip marine ranged weapons. It would be amazing. I would love to snipe, sadar and shotgun marines.

have you played the game?
its not like 100% of marines are rocking double buckshot shotties, or magharn agrip bayo shotties, but even that doesnt mean if every marine had magharn agrip bayo shottie we's be winning marine majors left and right
every combat caste has a way to directly counter shotgun that isnt cry tears, and even THEN they get to do it for free when they get hurt: theres a reason i take kd every round after all

tail sweep for defender is a melee skill that can be used to fuck up a marine (or marines) after he missed a pb because of pain, defender being robust and stepping up, or just the defender eating the pb because goddamnit those guys dont go down
it floors the marine in one go, meaning you can slash, you can clickdrag into gas, you can gtfo, you can call in your carrier buddy...
lunge is a warrior MELEE GRAB that yoinks an out of position marine and drags him into the nest after the whole hive spam disarms him
thats it
they just yoink you if you fucked up and left the cades

pounce is the same deal, but lurker gets to click 4 times and kill you in containers instead of dragging to the hive for a cap, and even then if they have buddies...

neuro/acid im mentioning because apparently not even ranged castes can counter pb buckshot shotties, EVEN THOUGH neuro slows you down so much its basically a stun, and mixing that with acid is a death sentence

croosher/burrower stomp instantly floors all marines around you, do i need to stress how useful that is? stomp to cover your escape, stomp to help XX-420 Ancient Ravager and XX-230 Elder Lurker take out those "auto aim op instant stun pb shotgun" users, stomp to stop cadehuggers SUPPRESSING FIRE, etc etc...

hedgehog shrapnel hurts a lot and forces buckshot shottie marines to stop moving or BREAK A BONE, giving you ample time to gtfo, pounce, gas, or just wait for him tk be stupid and crack his ribs on your bone shards

boiler is boiler, gas dabs all over shotgun marines, does fucktons of burn causing paincrit, paincrit = no shotties, no shotties = XX-420 Ravager pouncing, The Words of the Queen Echo in your Mind: Good work sisters! Try to cap as many marines as you can!

marines having *one* option to screw xenos in melee range doesnt mean they're automatically bumped down to a ranged caste and we should start giving lurkers rhe ability to place down acid pools and ravagers the ability to call qm gas cas
i really dont see your point here

[Ausrine]

My point was aliens are a melee faction but marines can do a lot more damage in melee. I don't know where you got lurker acid traps from. Are you ok? You aren't very coherent.

Also, let's see you try ancient defender against a single marine with a shotgun and no armour. They can outrun you. Yep, you can tail whip, but good luck - their PB is gonna really screw you up. Enjoy that. Let us know how you get on. One versus one. Good luck!

[CABAL]

Also, let's see you try ancient defender against a single marine with a shotgun and no armour. They can outrun you. Yep, you can tail whip, but good luck - their PB is gonna really screw you up. Enjoy that. Let us know how you get on. One versus one. Good luck!

Rock - Paper - Scissors

No Armor Marine - Defender - Sentinel/Spitter with neuro.

No Armor Marine beats Defender. Sentinel/Spitter with neuro beats No Armor Marine.

Oh no, Defender isn't jack of all trades and there are counters to it! HORRIBLE!

[Ausrine]

A single marine shouldn't be beating a defender; a non-support frontline melee caste. Gwuhja seemed to suggest the Defender would win CABAL. Hence asking him to try it.

Glad you can see who is winning the engagement. A shame you think ancient melee aliens at T1 should die solo to any private.

[Gwuhja]

but
they wont be dying solo???
ancient defender gets stunned, yes, but behind them is lurker gang, is XX-420 Elder Ravager ready to pounce, and farther than that is Ancient Boiler homeboi ready to cut off 10 marines with gas who dared try to chase and *gasp*, secure kills
im not talling about a vacuum situation 1v1 defender vs pfc, im sorry if that wasnt clear, just how shotguns fare against ayys overall

and, no, marines definitely dont do more damage in melee
we have one way to take on ayys in cqc not counting flailing our fists at them uselessly, while you have 6 other ways, and apparently that makes melee castes useless???? i dont get it anymore

[CABAL]

A single marine shouldn't be beating a defender; a non-support frontline melee caste. Gwuhja seemed to suggest the Defender would win CABAL. Hence asking him to try it.

Glad you can see who is winning the engagement. A shame you think ancient melee aliens at T1 should die solo to any private.

"Non-support frontline melee caste"...
What role could Defender fulfull? I think I have it at the end of my tongue... D... D.. De... Defend.
Defender is certainly not a frontline combatant, its main role is to defend. Most prominently to defend boilers, but also any other beno that is chased and/or low on health as it can soak a lot of damage.

The worst benomain way of thinking is to assume that Ancient T1 has to own 1vs1 any marine no matter what. No, there are counters, some are soft counters, some are hard counters. Ancient T1 shouldn't be granted to win 1vs1 despite the skill of both players and/or marine loadout.

Armorless Buckshot Marine goes full on CQC, he drops his armor (thus potential second slot for primary weapon) in favour of speed. He takes a gamble and so happens that Defender is at the short stick of this gamble. At the same time he is susceptible to any beno with ranged ability like neuro, acid, pounce, lunge etc. Armorless marine with shotgun reduces his range to only PB and just so happens that out of stunnable benos, only Defender (without a strain) and Drone don't have any ranged abilities.

T1s shouldn't also work alone. Benos don't have to follow honor code, or shit like that. Out of all T1s only Runner is semi-decent alone against more marines and only him with Sentinel have big chance to beat most of the marines 1vs1. The truth is, if you put Defender against marine in light armor with any weapon and enough ammo, Defender will most likely lose. Pulse Rifle? Run away and shoot at Defender, if Defender runs away, chase it. Pistol? Even better as you don't have to wield it to be accurate. Holdout Pistol? In a long 5x5 corridor map even this can decimate Defender. At this point drone works better thanks to it speed and fairly high tackle rate.

Defender isn't frontline combatant, its the worst caste to frontline. Its ironic to complain that DEFENDER isn't too strong on ATTACK. Defender was, is and will be combo beno, to be comboed with other benos, he is the tank in CM "MMORPG". Its role is to soak up damage, distracting opponents where squishy friendlies do the rest. And I know it, because I
basically exclusively play Defender if I'm beno.

In short: Its very stupid to demand that any beno (even Queen) HAS to own 1vs1 any marine, because no, no beno should take it for granted, especially no T1.
Defender is the weakest beno on its own. It gains strenght the more other benos there is. Armorless Buckshot Marine only exploits already big Defender weakness and takes it to the extreme, but basically any other beno beno (outside of Drone not on weeds/purple shit) has ways to deal with one.

[Ausrine]

Wow CABAL. You think a Defender is ONLY meant to defend? Wow. I guess, according to you, a lurker should only lurk - no attacking. Just stay hidden 24/7. Gotta be lurking.

You're very smart because you're so literal!

...

This is pointless because you are arguing crazy things. Defenders are the worst caste to frontline? Really? Tell that to a drone you madman. That a T1 melee caste designed for the frontline (it has armour and a good amount of health) is, in fact, only a support caste that should never see combat? Madness. You are speaking the language of crazy. God forbid any of the T1 castes are useful.

You are such a marine main.

T1s shouldn't work alone? Fine. Neither should marines. But they do. And when they do, the marine wins in this case. How? Shotgun.

In short: Its very stupid for you to speak and suggest defenders should only ever form walls and avoid ever fighting. It's very stupid of you to suggest that only (some) T2s and up have any right to fight marines, and that marines should win 1 vs 1 combats versus frontline aliens. It's very stupid of you to say all this and acknowledge alien weaknesses while suggesting it's all fine.

I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on. You're high on something. Enjoy it. You are clearly loving whatever you've taken.

[Cimo]

imagine arguing 1v1 situations when marines outnumbers xenos 4+ to 1

[CABAL]

snip

Exactly the slippery slope I follow. Defender should have slashing disabled, alongside runner (it can only run) and spitter (it can only spit).

Its not my whim, Defenders are designed around that, are we arguing how they should be in imaginary world where our opinion matters anything? Of course not, if anything, we should talk about how the game currently is and currently Defender follows "Defend" philosophy. Even your example with Lurker can be quite ironic since MOBA Lurker, well... Lurks permanently and pounces only once to slash few times and then escape to lurk again.

Did you read:

Defender is certainly not a frontline combatant, its main role is to defend. Most prominently to defend boilers, but also any other beno that is chased and/or low on health as it can soak a lot of damage.

And thought: "Hmmmmmm... 'its main role is to defend'... He has to mean that Defender should only defend! YES! Thats exactly what he meant! 'Main Role' means exactly 'One and Only Role'!"

Defender lacks speed to be true frontline combat beno. Just the armor (Ancient Defender has like 375 HP, barerly above Sentinel that is around 350) isn't enough. Weak slash (Around 30 at Ancient with strain), slow speed, stunnable, standard HP, lack of ranged abilities, bad tackle rate... Each and every trait of Defender suggest for it to not frontline at all. Yes, it can tank damage, this and only that. Drone on the other hand is fast enough and has tackle rate that is good enough and can emit its own pheromones. All of that and Drone is made to be support, but is still better than Defender has to offer.

This is pointless because you are arguing crazy things. Defenders are the worst caste to frontline? Really? Tell that to a drone you madman. That a T1 melee caste designed for the frontline (it has armour and a good amount of health No, it doesn't have good ammount of health) is, in fact, only a support caste that should never see combat? Madness. You are speaking the language of crazy. God forbid any of the T1 castes are useful.

Defender was, is and will be combo beno, to be comboed with other benos, he is the tank in CM "MMORPG". Its role is to soak up damage, distracting opponents where squishy friendlies do the rest.

Hmmm... Language of crazy, huh? Only a support caste? Where did you read that? Combo beno =/= Support caste. Defender is *also supposed to be where there is fight, but it definately shouldn't fight on the frontlines, only really slashing marines when they are focused or something else, or stunned/critted. 3 out of 4 strainless Defender abilities are focused on defence. Fortify that literally makes it a standing literall bullet sponge, lower crest that makes it slower, but more armored bullet sponge, headbutt that actually LAUNCHES marines FAR AWAY from Defender and tail whip that launches them tile, or two, but also stuns. Only Tail Whip seems to be a combat ability, so not really good as in comparsion to other benos, that have either all of the abilities focused on combat, or the same ratio of 3 out of 4 for attack. Steel Crest strain? Less armor, less dmg and drop of the only truly offensive ability in exchange for movement during fortify and a bit bigger damage on Headbutt + 1 range for it. No comment.

Yup, marines also aren't supposed to fight alone, but just so happens that one marine can beat one defender pretty easly. With other T1 castes... Its whole different story and the odds are in favour of benos as it is supposed to be.

It's very stupid of you to suggest that only (some) T2s and up have any right to fight marines, and that marines should win 1 vs 1 combats versus frontline aliens. It's very stupid of you to say all this and acknowledge alien weaknesses while suggesting it's all fine.

Where in this thread I suggest that only "some" T2s have any right to fight marines? Even if I didn't, its not about right, but its about being viable. Drone evolution aren't rather supposed to directly fight marines. Carrier and Burrower have traps, Hivelord has walls. From T2's only Warrior and Spitter are viable to actually engage marines on the frontlines, Lurker is all about ambushing, otherwise its just slower runner with more HP and lackluster pounce.

It's very stupid of you to suggest that only (some) T2s and up have any right to fight marines, and that marines should win 1 vs 1 combats versus frontline aliens. It's very stupid of you to say all this and acknowledge alien weaknesses while suggesting it's all fine.

In short: Its very stupid to demand that any beno (even Queen) HAS to own 1vs1 any marine, because no, no beno should take it for granted, especially no T1.

What could that quote mean? Marines SHOULD win 1 vs1 against benos, or SHOULD BE ABLE to win if marine is in favour (robust marine vs bald beno)? Hmmm... I bet that the latter, but I guess you stick to the former.

I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on. You're high on something. Enjoy it. You are clearly loving whatever you've taken.

Haha, I'm really trippin balls man, I can see the music and yes, I am the Lizard King, baby.
Tiberium Injection is my favourite.