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Thread: So the current winrate...

  1. #11
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    I don't accept that it's just that xeno players are bad. That argument has been so overused at this point that I can't even take it seriously. There are always new players and varying skill levels on both sides, and there are certainly no shortage of new marine players right now, or people trying out new roles. Yes, somehow all these terrible bald medics, incompetent engineers and PVTs friendly-firing everywhere aren't impacting the win rate.

    An argument that I think is far more legitimate is that because xenos have lower numbers and greater consequences for death, low-skilled players are more of a burden to the xeno team. But that's not something that can realistically be changed. The game will always need new players, and that means new players playing xenomorph and possibly committing the awful sin of being bad. That's not a problem for the game, it helps those new players learn and gives good experiences to the marines who kill them. If the balance hasn't factored in new players existing or their disproportionate effect on the xeno team due to smaller numbers, then that's the actual balance problem. It's not the individual players.

    In terms of actual issues with the state of balance right now, I think it's actually quite complex and has a lot of components that combine together. I personally feel that shotguns are currently too versatile (not necessarily too powerful, but too effective in too broad a range of situations). Shotguns determine every engagement to the point where the entire mentality of the playerbase is built around them, and they leave tanking castes (defenders and crushers) with no real role in the current shotgun-dominated meta, other than maybe to sit in front of boilers. You can't tank buckshot, ever, and since buckshot is ubiquitous these castes massively decrease in utility.

    Speaking of boilers, another problem right now is extreme reliance on a few roles or castes which basically function as keystones for the entire team. Boilers are the really obvious example, they are absolutely determinate in a way no other T3 caste is, which means they need to stay alive and they need to be good. You can't siege without them. You can't defend without them. You basically need them to carry the entire xeno team, and that puts a huge ammount of pressure on the few players who roll boiler. It doesn't help that boilers are also the most vulnerable caste when it comes to the aforementioned Fatty/mortar meta, so they can die very easily to very minor mistakes. All in all, you have a caste which a lot of experienced players don't find particularly enjoyable (sure, there are exceptions, but robustos generally want to be on the front lines), but which also has to carry the team.

    Finally, I don't think it's determinate, but I think the changes to capturing have really hurt. Depending on time of day, marines have a constant influx of new players over the course of a round, and while the loss of specialised roles may really hurt that mass of new join squad marines can keep marines going even in a bad situation or after an initial loss. Xenos, on the other hand, are very unlikely to ever recover from serious losses other than having a boiler sit in a chokepoint (again, see boilers having to carry the team). Capturing is difficult and becomes more difficult the more marines outnumber xenos, and the rewards are just not good enough to even keep up with attrition most of the time.

  2. #12
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    I think another major issue is that xenos don't scale properly.

    By that I mean, sometimes 80-100 people ready up but there is actually 120-150 people in the lobby. Or those people who don't get spec / SG / whatever role they want and stay in lobby.

    20 xenos get spawned because of this yet there is like 100-120 marines, 4-5 survivors (maybe), and some shipside crew.

    So essentially xenos have to face 4-5 times their number, meaning xenos either have to be REALLY good, or marines have to be REALLY bad. Due to the fact that, as mentioned above, xenos CANNOT make a mistake with these few xenos or marines will unga rush in and capitalize, which forces Queen out of ovi, and this usually ends with a Queen overextending and dying (because the Queen essentially has to carry at that point and one mistake and its all over).

    Add on top of that new joining marines due to timezones while no new xenos appear and you get a dull attrition battle that either favors marines or stalemates for 2-3 hours because boilers know how to stagnate their fire.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swagile View Post
    snip.
    not saying this isnt a problem but its always been like this though. So I dont think it is THE reason for the current situation. probably just a contributing factor. But on your point, ive heard people say they intentionally dont ready up then late join when the round starts so xenos get less players.

    also going along with this point, you can tell if xenos are getting permakills or not because the roundstart larva wont be getting used until marines start permadying. When they added cryo troops it really fucked that up because marines would get the cryo troops instead of taking over larva. But thats not as bad now since they dont get as many cryo troops as they used to.
    Last edited by MasterShakeEZ; 02-10-2020 at 02:27 AM.

  4. #14
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    I am going with fatties being the problem it seems. Current issue is when used they can just delete any xeno and to notice the fatty las means having to see it, to see it is to get in range of it hit and get gibbed and considering it can drop more or less silently(it makes a bomb door drop sound like .5-1.5 seconds before hitting) there is not many ways to counter it. Once it kills the boilers, some robust tier 3s, and so on, it can just ruin the abilty of the aliens to do anything and they collapse. Why it back in flavor? Fatties been known to be such a nice weapon but the cost I guess ussally kept people away but... people started realizing screw it and dump all into it. Get some good kills and it will be all worth it besides you will have enough for GAU and minis anyway in storage.

    When fatties arent used ussally aliens will win.

    Better players wont solve it, more larva wont solve the issue of dead tier 3s, ancient empress at 12:01 wont solve the issue of your dead boiler. Current issue is rapid drop fatties that cant be countered in anyway.

  5. #15
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    1. Death being a minor nuisance to marines.

    2. Mortars/cas making holding position/sieging a slow death.

    3. Xenos dieing quicker than marines in close up combat.

  6. #16
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    Death can be a very major nuisance, if you get dragged away before that and die without being recovered, or worse if you get delimbed or infected, or if you get internal bleeding, more than one broken bone, or organ damage. Anything that forces you to go back to the Almayer to get treated takes away up to 20 minutes of your time.

  7. #17
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    I like how we spent about a year arguing about the 70-30 xeno winrate in detail and have more or less accepted it and now we are back at this again.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surimi View Post
    I don't accept that it's just that xeno players are bad.
    Xenos snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at pretty much every available opportunity.

    No click delay? Still lose.
    New update buffing Praes and allowing xenos to get Elder T3s by like 12:35, /on top of/ reducing buckshot damage? Still lose.

    The fact is, the only time xenos stomp to hell and back is when the good marines swap to xenos for a meme round or two. So the problem clearly isn't the actual balance between the sides, it's that the people maining xeno just aren't that good right now.

  9. #19
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    Boilers, and moreover GOOD boilers are so crucial to the hive that not having one is genuinely worse than not having a Queen, in my opinion. All strategies for the xenos rely on boilers to prevent marines from being in the hive and ready to poopoo on you at 12:40 before your T3s are le epic killing machines.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahKirchner View Post
    Boilers, and moreover GOOD boilers are so crucial to the hive that not having one is genuinely worse than not having a Queen, in my opinion. All strategies for the xenos rely on boilers to prevent marines from being in the hive and ready to poopoo on you at 12:40 before your T3s are le epic killing machines.
    By the time of 12:40 you have now Ancient T3's. How much more time do you need?

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