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Thread: Staff Report - VortexGaming

  1. #1
    Senior Member solidfury7's Avatar
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    Staff Report - VortexGaming

    Staff Report
    Your BYOND Key
    Solidfury7
    Date of Incident
    February 9, 2020
    Your Character Name?
    William 'Mengele' Crimson
    Their BYOND Key
    VortexGaming
    Approximate time and date of the incident
    Around 13:00 US Central (Around 18:50 GMT)
    Which Staff Protocols (https://cm-ss13.com/forums/showthrea...-and-Protocols) were broken
    2. Investigate the situation
    3. Determine the seriousness of the issue
    5. Determine the punishment.

    (These were done to an extent but not to the standard I think required)
    Description of the incident
    I will first start with adding the ban note, for context.

    Reason: Jobbaned from MP/CMP for arresting a marine for hooliganism and resisting arrest, arrested another marine for "intefering with an arrest" who was simply being shoved into him in a crowd. Original marine got a 5 minute sentence while the interfering with an arrest marine got 25 minutes. Known for being an excessive hardass and constantly bordering marine law in the past. This time he is bordering grieifing rules using CMP..



    During this round, I was banned by VortexGaming for detaining someone who believed my application of marine law was one of abuse.

    I am writing this appeal to contest this.


    During this situation, I came across a marine who was commit the crime of Hooliganism and arrest, I observed the occuring and went in to assist, detaining someone who was interfering with this arrest by shaking the suspect up.
    This situation was not contested by the Trial Moderator in question.

    However, during the follow up, while the two MPs were dragging away the prisoners, a marine specifically walked in to one of the arresting MPs, however this was not the every day bumping that can occur and does occur,

    This is interfering equivelant of saying "The M Word", Delta often does this as a way to avoid arrests, however this case was an obviously blatent attempt to free the marine with the near constant walking pushing)
    to the point where I actually step in and stun them, the other MPs proceed while I deal with the marine.

    After arresting him, the other MP who is unaware I have detained him, requests his arrest for interfering.

    Now, here is the specific charge.

    Interfering with an arrest
    To disrupt or interfere with a lawful arrest done by the military police.
    Same punishment as accused
    Permanent confinement

    Now, I believe what VortexGaming has taken issue with, is that the fact I generally punish interfering with arrest with 1.5x - 2x sentencing, which is permitted within marine law, as the crime doesnt really have a sliding scale like most other crimes. This round in question, these suspects who were decided to interfere with an arrest,
    which had both been confirmed by myself, and the MP who was interfered with as being intentional. These marines actions, caused Delta to do the classic "Shall we mutiny", resulting in marines breaking in to the brig, breaking in to the MP armory and
    causing the ship to be elevated to the red alert.

    At this stage I was boinked and asked why detained said individuals, I explained they broke the Interfering with arrest rules, and that the Trial Moderator in question should perhaps look in to the actions of the two interferees, rather than myself.

    During dealing with these boinks, the officer places the original hooliganism arrested person (for hooliganism ) in the brig and gives them 5 minutes, rather than the 15 they should have been given, when questioned, the MP said they didnt want to watch the prisoner. Considering resisting arrest is an optional charge, I believed that it would be iffy to add the charge on to the timer, as that is the only time you can technically alter timers to have more time (If the arrest is incorrect,eg, wrong charge)

    However, the two other individuals were still going to have the assigned time for the crimes involved, however with the esculating situation, the timers were amended to be 1.6x the original charge. Which is, fair considering the context of the situation, and the fact that their actions had caused a whole lot of drama. This is why Assault with deadly has a sliding scale, someone who gets shot once during a fight, does not get the same time as someone who tries to murder the CE. Context is king in these cases.



    Now, one of my main concerns with this,is the fact that within my note, the note shows that this situation was not investigated remotely well enough, and it has some concerning content.

    Number one, the note claims that the interferer was being pushed by a crowd, this is, quite blatently false, the individual was on his own, specifically pushing in to the MP. The marine in question stated in his appeal that he tried to walk around him and that it was an accidental bump, he mentioned nothing about a crowd (Because there wasnt one,) this would have been noticable if logs were examined, or further investigation was made.
    Two, the note does not mention the specific rule I have broken in this case, nor was I told over PMs, I am assuming from the note that it is Rule 4, which quite blatently doesnt fit the bill, as I had relevant roleplay reasons(Due to the brig break ins, armory break ins and talks of mutiny)
    Three - During the start of the conversation, I specifically mentioned that the two individuals who interefered with the arrest had broken server rules, however, before the ban was placed, I asked VortexGaming if any punishment had been applied to them, he informed me No, and asked me if I could provide names, this was a huge red flag for me, as It showed he had not investigated the situation suffeciently, especially because this whole situation was caused by the two interferees.
    Four - One thing I dislike is the fact that he references my character being a "hard-arse" in a way that implies it in a negative connotation, this who know my correct, know that I am by the book, I am fair but I ALWAYS follow the law, at all costs. The only time I can honestly say I've breached that, was recently during an mini-event (of sorts) which resulted in the CMP executing me, and I was saved by the CL and marines, and I returned to the brig in disguise to free one of the CTs who saved me, before realising I wouldnt have the chance to do so without killing the CMP, who executed me around an hour earlier. The whole situation was a rare little thing, which had amazing roleplay, the only issue was I didnt ahelp prior.
    This note was used against me to paint a supposed history of not following marine law, which, many staff, even those which arent too fond of my character, will know is laughable, he is based around being by the book, to a /fault/,


    So, overall.

    I got job-banned for following marine law and applying a timer which wasnt minimum, because the context of the situation. And because a trial moderator who did not witness the situation unfold, nor took in to account the unrest the crime was caused(red alert, calls for mutiny, breakins to brig and brig armory)

    Yes, job-banned for not applying minimum sentencing, that is as silly as it sounds.
    Evidence
    Logs from the Military Police requesting one of the interfering marine (Pushing guy) to be arrested for interfering with arrest

    PMs between staff and players involved
    How you would punish the accused
    I don't think he did this maliciously, although it did concern me he used my characters IC reputation and RP style as "evidence"

    I'd probably just giving him the rundown through Marine Law and how to handle marine law ahelps.

    Oh and removal of the note.

  2. #2
    Moderator VortexGaming's Avatar
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    Alright so, you were punished for the Excessive Time you gave. You were originally boinked on the interfering with an arrest charge however as I got around 3-5 ahelps regarding the issue in a short amount of time. Talking to a few involved and a few staff witnesses I was told there was a group, although with the amount of juggling I was doing I must have neglected to ask you about it. but this isn't why I banned you. As you stated you believe my main problem is the amount of time you gave as punishments. The original marine who was arrested got 5 minutes as you said, while the ones you arrested for interfering with an arrest got 25 minutes. As marine law states: The Minimum Punishment should be used in most cases unless it is a duplicate crime or several crimes have been committed and only one can be chosen.
    The minimum sentence for interfering with an arrest is the same punishment as accused. the marines who were arrested for interfering with an arrest got 5x the punishment as the original marine arrested for hooliganism(resisting arrest charge was dropped as you said.) This is being overly excessive ruining peoples round for something they didn't even mean to do being borderline grief. You have a hard ass stigma with your character and seemingly find any reason to arrest marines this isn't being used as evidence but is ever apparent in your old notes.

    Due to me being wrong about the crowd I would recommend changing the note given to reflect this. However I believe original punishment should remain. for now lets wait for logs

    Note given for refrence: Banned |Duration: 180 minutes|Reason: Jobbaned from MP/CMP for arresting a marine for hooliganism and resisting arrest, arrested another marine for "intefering with an arrest" who was simply being shoved into him in a crowd. Original marine got a 5 minute sentence while the interfering with an arrest marine got 25 minutes. Known for being an excessive hardass and constantly bordering marine law in the past. This time he is bordering grieifing rules using CMP. | Sun, February 9th of 2020
    Last edited by VortexGaming; 02-09-2020 at 11:00 PM.
    Kaitlynn Lawson The Captain: https://cm-ss13.com/old/viewtopic.php?f=142&t=18802
    Alicia The Motherly Synthetic: https://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=17406
    Ja'akir Aki The Messenger of the Gods: https://cm-ss13.com/forums/showthrea...or-Application
    Staff history:
    Spoiler Spoiler:

  3. #3
    Whitelisted Predator Lumdor's Avatar
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    I was apart of this situation as the character named Buzz 'Dude' Atlas. During this whole thing happening one of the people got tasered and I used the help intent to try and help them up. During which I was then tased and told I was being arrested for hooliganism which wasn't at all what I was doing. Later I was told that I was arrested for interfering with an arrest and given 25 minutes. Me giving someone a helping hand who was tased is in no way interfering with an arrest. Also, I did not push any of the MPs nor did I try and stop them from handcuffing anyone that they were trying to arrest. Later in the brig, the actual offenders were let out earlier than I, and I was forced to be in the brig for 25 minutes plus. That is my part on the matter that unfolded.

  4. #4
    Senior Member solidfury7's Avatar
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    The timer should have been applied at 15 minutes, as resisting arrest should have been applied, however once the timer was set, I was unable alter the timer (As you are not permitted to alter times, as stated as a CMP once the timer has been set)

    The prisoners, interfered with the a suspect who commit the follow crimes Hooliganism + Resisting arrest and they were charged based on those crimes, the MP who set the timer to 5 minutes was seemingly unfamilar with marine law before breaking marine law and leaving the brig against orders. (Charging someone less than 10 minutes is something I normally NJP for)

    As such, the timer was 1.6x the intended time, that is an additional ten minutes for a situation which caused the following:

    • Marines breaking in to the MP armory
    • Marines breaking in to the brig
    • Talks of Delta mutinying


    If you are saying that context plays zero context in charges, Vortex, as I used in the previous case.

    Stabbing someone with a knife will give you the same time as someone who tried to murder the CE to death.

    its blatently false to say that minimum is only for if multiple crimes have been commited and its previously been expanded on (Specifically because we lack no attempted murder charge)

    There have been cases where innocent people have been detained in the past, it happens, either a new player misfires a grenade or someone gets framed for a crime, staff normally merely boink us and ask us to release someone early. I was extremely surprised that this situation exculated in this manner, until I recently found out that it effected a member of the staff team, which leads me to suspect that procedures were likely breached in investigation (Having a victim being able to talk in admin/mod chat doesn't really keep things unbiased)
    So I am requesting that mchat/achat logs are released either here, or to one of the managers handling this.

    However, another MP and I both saw the actions of the individual as interfering with an arrest, and you, as a member of staff are punishing me for not acting on unknown OOC knowledge that it is /perhaps/ unintended. You do realise how bizzare that is., especially in a MRP server.


    Regarding Lumdor, I'll entertain his reply, he's been a member of staff and we are all aware that shaking up a marine mid-arrest is an attempt to free them. During his appeal, Lumdor said he was trying to help the marine up, mid arrest, to stop him from hurting his back. That is a literal quote as logs will show, which did tickle me a little OOCly but it shows he was aware of his actions.
    Spoiler Spoiler:



  5. #5
    Moderator Novacti's Avatar
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    I will be depositing logs here within the next 12 hours
    British Gentleman - Odell Cromwell
    (Captain Cromwell) -BLUEFOR
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  6. #6
    Moderator Novacti's Avatar
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    The first arrests:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    After the arrest, during processing:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    After recieving an appeal request from Hunter Otis, who was arrested for apparently breaking a window:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Explaining charges to Zion
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Meeting with the Commodore to discuss about the arrests:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Crimson Cryoing:
    Spoiler Spoiler:



    The Ahelps that were recieved regarding the situation:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Admin PM's and ban:
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    The only relevant logs I can find that include the key words: "Mutiny", "M Word":
    Spoiler Spoiler:

    Nobody explicitly stated that they were mutinying themselves. Nor was there an Ahelp regarding it.
    Last edited by Novacti; 02-14-2020 at 05:28 PM.
    British Gentleman - Odell Cromwell
    (Captain Cromwell) -BLUEFOR
    Bloodthirsty Australian - Darcey Ledgeman
    Absolute Jackass - Johnny Swindle
    Space Commie - Artyom Ulyanov
    Not a Hero - Jay Osiris
    Unsung Legend - Silo Rhind
    Your best buddy, or worst enemy - Noran Kestrel
    Cynical Synthetic - Payne

    My wall of medals: https://bit.ly/2v0iMAE
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  7. #7
    Whitelist Council Member
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    I was the CO that round. I had a MP come to CIC complaining about Crimson for giving 25 minutes to a marine to which I don't recall the charges ( I later found out that the MP that came to me, broke ML by not following the procedure, by not adding resisting arrest in one of the timers and as Crimson stated, didn't want to add the additional charge as he had to watch over the prisioner for the time he was in the brig, leading to another charge against the MP which is Neglect of duty, but surely this incident was properly investigated and punished at that moment). After this I went down to the brig myself.

    Anyways, If I remember correctly ( Memory might fail since I have a memory of a pigeon ), when I went down to the brig I asked Crimson why would he give 25 minutes for hooliganism and resisting arrest which is 5m for hooliganism and 10ms for resisting arrest minimum. As vortex stated, "The Minimum Punishment should be used in most cases unless it is a duplicate crime or several crimes have been committed and only one can be chosen.", the key word here is SHOULD, so no MP is obliged to give minimal punishment according to ML if deemed necessary depending on the detainee's atittude, level of agression or problems that were caused due to their attitude ( which seems to be the case ). It is obvious that MPs shouldn’t max arrest on first offenses without proper cause, but again, according to ML, server rules, etc, there is nowhere where it says EXPLICITLY that a MP MUST give out minimal timers for first offenses. Thank god that the “ Should “ Is there or I guarantee there would be a LOT of shitters trying to test this bounds, knowing they would get a minimal punishment even if they were complete shitheads.

    If we look at this with detail, we got 2 marines that were arrested for hooliganism and interfering with an arrest, having NO IC reason to do so, and the mod in question didn't deal any disciplinary actions against any of them, and one of them, interfered with the arrest because he "was trying to help the marine up, mid arrest, to stop him from hurting his back"... I don't know if that is ICly enough not to be dealt with OOCly, but I ll leave the admin team to decide.
    It seems to me, that the mod in question, not only failed to properly investigate the situation upon being ahelped, as he completely disregarded both interferings, as he punished a player that did not break ML, but instead acted accordingly to the events that were happening, to which I can confirm as a witness that the marines were a bit ungas in the beggining of the round.

    As for the rest I cannot speak for it, as I pardonned the marine that asked for me to deal with his appeal since he had served his time ( aka I threatened him to place his ass into a tiny cell the next time he decided to fuck up ), and left the brig after since the appeal I was asked to conduct was over.

    Having said this, I believe that a Jobban was a bit off due to this incident, as firstly, both marines that were arrested for interfering in the arrest were not dealt with OOCly aparently, and Crimson as the CMP, was forced to deal with it IC even though the reasons for the interfering were … oofie at best, and secondly, the MP team did what they could do at the time to put out the massive wave of random tresspassings / hooliganism / etc that was happening.
    I won’t be replying to anything else unless asked via here or PMs. Thanks
    Captain Morgan Young

    Charlie Squad Medic main and the worst nade Thrower you Will ever see.

  8. #8
    Mod Manager scsnv's Avatar
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    So this report puts me in a bit of an uncomfortable position regarding current Marine Law and its application and how it relates to staff. I don't think, reading through this, that Solid was mistaken from a ML perspective in the times he gave out. It's obvious they were excessive; however, on the eve of us working on a ML rework and acknowledging its faults, it's a little unusual to be dealing out an CMP/MP ban on someone who was enforcing the (flawed) system correctly.

    The real issue of this report is whether Rule 3 can apply to MPs who are enforcing Marine Law correctly, albeit harshly, on the eve of a change in Marine Law to resolve issues related to how harsh it is. I think yes; it can. However, there has never been any indication that this is the case. There's no line in Rule 15 which says, "MPs must follow Marine Law - unless Marine Law is unfair to the situation, in which case don't follow Marine Law". And in fact, given how MPs get noted or punished for even the most minuscule breaches of Marine Law, we almost directly contradict any expectation for MPs to not follow Marine Law in certain situations.

    As for Vortex's part in all of this, I'll go by Solid's complaints point-by-point:
    1. As far as the issue with the marine pushing/being pushed is concerned, it was not acknowledged in the actual ban note given out regarding the issue, nor do I find it especially relevant especially relevant in determining whether or not Vortex failed to investigate the issue.
    2. The jobban was given for a breach of Rule 3 (don't be a dick), as far as I'm concerned. You could also make an argument for Rule 4 (griefing), although I wouldn't say that fits quite as well. Sure, Vortex probably could've specified, but given the rather complicated nature of the issue, including my own ruling on it now, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to expect them to be able to do so.
    3. We tend not to handle issues which have been handled by MPs/ICly as OOC issues, with exceptions. So I wouldn't necessarily expect Vortex to have handled them after-the-fact; and no, the fact that they reported a potential rulebreak on your end doesn't transform their IC issue back to an OOC issue.
    4. From among the complaints made, this one has the most merit as far as I'm concerned. Your 'reputation' as a player is irrelevant, and is not actionable from a staff perspective. As staff, we are expected to refer to the severity of the issue, any previous history with the issue (note/ban history), and context to determine punishment - specifically so that we can avoid personal emotions as we handle issues. And perhaps Vortex was simply expressed his intentions poorly, but for that to be given to a player and listed on a ban note as part of the rationale for it is a bit off. So in that regard, I'm inclined to agree that there was an error.


    Here's the bottom line; I believe that Solid's use of Marine Law here was excessive and - to a degree - warrants action taken by staff. However, for the reasons stated, I think that a complete ban of both MP and CMP is not especially fair or appropriate. Especially with the Marine Law rework on the horizon, I believe Solid should be given the opportunity to play MP under the new ruleset, such that he can enforce ML without the ire of staff for enforcing it the wrong way. On that basis, I will be lifting the MP jobban; the CMP jobban, however, will remain. His good or bad behavior under the new Marine Law system will determine whether he can potentially get the CMP jobban lifted or if he'll lose the ability to play MP altogether.

    Resolved; the MP jobban will be lifted. The CMP jobban will remain. Vortex will be spoken to about the use of player reputation in handling issues.
    Trial Moderator: 4/18/2019 - 5/2/2019 | Moderator: 5/3/2019 - 10/1/2019 | Senior Moderator: 10/2/2019 - 12/26/2019 | Trial Admin: 12/27/2019 - 1/11/2020 | Mod Manager: 1/12/2020 - Present

    Discord: Scsnv#2020

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