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Thread: ChainsawMullet - Rule 4

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    ChainsawMullet - Rule 4

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    Medizan

    Date of Incident
    March 10, 2020

    Your Character Name?
    Luca Polson

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    ChainsawMullet

    Accused Character Name
    Hylla Greene

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    10:50 PM

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Rule 4

    Description of the incident:
    At the round start of the round at this time period I noted that Hylla Greene was standing in the secure area of briefing behind the glass walls. As the CMP I went to simply escort them out of the area when I realized that they used their engineering class to hack through the doors.

    My issue with this is that this isn't the first time that Hylla Greene or the other "Greene" family has done this without provocation. In fact, every time I have seen a member of the "Greene" family they have somehow managed to coordinate with one another without the use of apparent in game communications and target security for no apparent reason.

    At round start the Greenes have repeatedly destroyed walls critical to the security of both security and command areas. Additionally, they like to remove ID locks and harass MPs without provocation at every round start that they're present.

    Given the fact that this happens EVERY SINGLE TIME they are around I highly doubt there is a justifiable IC reasoning for this. Especially when Mps have had little to NO contact with the Greene's prior to their antics EVERY SINGLE ROUND. The Greenes legitimately lack any contact with command or MP staff that would otherwise warrant them constantly doing this and thereby severely hampering security during their rounds. They've made it where criminals and their buddies can simply waltz in and let their friends out unless extra caution is taken, thus storming the MPs is now even easier.

    This is greifing especially since they do this when there is little to no engineering staff around to clean up the mess, thus making the issue that more difficult to resolve in an IC manner.

    I also have an issue with the manner in which this event was handled by the staff, namely Novacti who was quick to take the oppositions account over my own statements of fact with little to no questioning or clarifying on my end. He made a very quick judgement against me despite me showing and quoting the rule and how it was being abused, simply saying that it is an IC issue because MPs are responsible for stopping people from griefing. He also ignored me pointing out how this was hampering securities efforts.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    https://gyazo.com/801ad192a63eb736d85e8a28dbd352a1 - Southern Wall missing. Door hacked to allow persons with NO ID to just waltz in and let people out of security.

    https://gyazo.com/daa681d26ac820d6f5d62bbb9645cde0 - Proof of being able to open doors without ID. My ID was in my bag, thus making it impossible to allow that to let me in and out.

    https://gyazo.com/46b550495cf258c8439ac7dc259c78f6 - Mass ID door removal. Again, this is done every time I see them as a MP and done in the same manner. They do this with NO interaction with myself or any other MPs. I know for a fact since I was the only MP on at the time that they did it.

    How you would punish the accused:
    Ban from the game for a usual amount of time for griefing. Ban from the Engineering / any and all engineering related jobs until they can not abuse it to randomly attack MPs without provocation.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Pigeon's Avatar
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    Was XO that round. Also add they stole a command headset for some reason, I know because they were on command channel once early on, was before dropping so about 13-18 minutes into the match. If it wasn't a command headset they stole some headset with command channel. Only other things I know they did was... be an engineer for delta and didn't cause any issues I would notice station-side(prison station), getting grabbed by a carrier and hugged and then escaping or something.

    Basically they only seemed to cause issues early round then melded into the background after deployment. Would need logs to prove anything. Also did not remember any talk from the CMP about the engineer destroying any of this property which is odd.

  3. #3
    Moderator ChainsawMullet's Avatar
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    Hoo boy this is gonna be a fun one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    Description of the incident:[INDENT][I] At the round start of the round at this time period I noted that Hylla Greene was standing in the secure area of briefing behind the glass walls. As the CMP I went to simply escort them out of the area when I realized that they used their engineering class to hack through the doors.

    My issue with this is that this isn't the first time that Hylla Greene or the other "Greene" family has done this without provocation. In fact, every time I have seen a member of the "Greene" family they have somehow managed to coordinate with one another without the use of apparent in game communications and target security for no apparent reason.
    It's weird to me that you assume there is ZERO communication. It's almost like people don't talk about the marine law breaks they're doing/want to do in front of MPs? Really weird how that occurs. Hell, I'm pretty sure the other guy does this when I'm not around, similarly to how I do it when he's not around. Just because we run into eachother doing it doesn't really mean much, so even then there's not much need to go "Hey I'm hacking to get a command key", we usually run into eachother there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    At round start the Greenes have repeatedly destroyed walls critical to the security of both security and command areas. Additionally, they like to remove ID locks and harass MPs without provocation at every round start that they're present.
    In what way is a window frame you can replace in thirty seconds critical to security? I also question how I have ever "harrassed" MPs when I do this, since I don't even talk to MPs at all. Not only that, but most of the time I do this, there ISN'T another Greene on the server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    Given the fact that this happens EVERY SINGLE TIME they are around I highly doubt there is a justifiable IC reasoning for this. Especially when Mps have had little to NO contact with the Greene's prior to their antics EVERY SINGLE ROUND. The Greenes legitimately lack any contact with command or MP staff that would otherwise warrant them constantly doing this and thereby severely hampering security during their rounds. They've made it where criminals and their buddies can simply waltz in and let their friends out unless extra caution is taken, thus storming the MPs is now even easier.
    Yes there is. I want people to break out of brig, I am going out of my way to assist in jailbreak and damage government property. This is an IC reason, though I am sure you are loathe to believe it. As far as hacking my way to the command bubble goes, I just want the megaphone. Most of the time I don't even stick around IN the bubble. You also say it yourself here that I don't even interact with command or MP staff, so I wonder why earlier you suggest I harrass them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    This is greifing especially since they do this when there is little to no engineering staff around to clean up the mess, thus making the issue that more difficult to resolve in an IC manner.
    I don't check to make sure there's MTs on, I play primarily on lowpop and that's just a side effect of that, it's not really intentional.

    EDIT: Also I shouldn't have to say it, but there is no "Greene meta family" or whatever. I only know 1 other person who plays a "Greene", the rest are unknowns to me.
    Last edited by ChainsawMullet; 03-11-2020 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Gotta edit bro


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  4. #4
    Moderator Novacti's Avatar
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    As of my part, an investigation was conducted regarding Mullet; questions and clarifications. Don't blame me if I refuse to tell you that they are a moderator and exactly what they took. Through our interaction, I have deemed that they have justified IC motives, despite it being against ML. The actions that they took did not severely affect the round, as you may obtain command headsets and megaphones decently easily throughout the round. Almayer walls can be easily repaired and don't affect the round much. Hacked doors can also be easily repaired.

    They are playing a role bound by ML, but not OOC'ly dictated by it. They can break it within reason.
    Last edited by Novacti; 03-11-2020 at 05:10 AM.
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    Here are the PM's:

    Original Ahelp
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Conversation between Novi and Medizan
    Spoiler Spoiler:



    PM's between Novi and Chainsaw
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    There are some Msay conversations going on as well that I will forward to the two staff's direct superior, in this case the Mod Manager.

    Unfortunately there are ZERO logs about the hacking. I was told by one of the dev staff that this might be due to recent dev branch stuff.
    Last edited by RobBrown4PM; 03-11-2020 at 05:27 AM.

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    Really, the primary factors that I want to point out here aren't metacomms or anything like that. It is the following facts that Chainsaw can't say aren't true without just straight up lying about their actions:

    1. Chainsaw has previously, on multiple occasions, sabotaged doors around, in, and the Command and Security areas.

    2. Chainsaw has done these actions when they cannot be rectified in an IC manner do to the the lack of engineering staff. (Note that in the elements of Rule 4 that the person need not have intention to have committed griefing. This is an unfixable, unwinable situation for MPs that Chainsaw is pre-establishing.)

    3. By Chainsaw's admission there has been little to NO contact between themselves and other MPs. While it is true that you are permitted to retain information from previous experiences, preemptively acting upon them without justification for that round seems to be an abuse of the system. Otherwise, it would imply that because I got into a fight with someone else previously (in an IC manner) that I can continue my fight where we left off and immediately start shooting at him at round start if that's the level of escalation that we've been at. Similarly, if I so chose, the statement of: "I have an IC reason" is being treated as permission to 'do-whatever against the USMC' whats to say I can't break into research and IO areas and steal and hide all the defcon data? You may claim that it's 'different for IOs and Research because it's a core game element', and MPs arent? Are they not a giant area of the ship? A job listed on the manifest every single round? With a entire page dedicated to the administration of Military Law? How aren't they core? Or does this imply that the MPs are permitted to retrain an IC reason from previous rounds to go ahead and arrest Greene on sight even if they're just climbing out of cryo?

    4. How is there such a lack of understanding that you have hacked and literally destroyed walls, not windows, WALLS, as to allow easy access into secure areas of the brig and that not be a major issue to Security to the point that it makes arresting people and keeping them in the brig pointless? And done this in such a manner that we cannot ICly fix the issue either? Again, the standard doesn't examine intent per the rules. Just because it wasn't your "intent to do this while there were no engineers around" it doesn't matter that there were no Engineers around to clean up the mess, thus making it impossible for us to address. In previous rounds, we did have a CE but due to how many doors were hacked it was hard to coordinate to get them to actually get them all. I think you have FAR exceeded the 'reasonable' standard on that.

    Note: We punish Xenos who try to "rush" defenses on LZs despite them KNOWING that both A: Marines exist and B: they're indeed assured to be coming. But the core action here is that the Xenos are attempting to, without true knowledge of where they are landing, establish and unfair advantage prior to Marines even having contact with them. This is the same event. Prior to any contact between MPs, as Chainsaw has admitted, likes to go and assure that they can debilitate security by removing any means of keeping people in jail to jailbreak people out when they see fit to do so. Remember, intent isn't really measured here so wheither they knew we couldn't get it fixed or not doesn't matter per the rules. Im sure this is so that if any of their buddies, squad mates, otherwise get jailed they can easily just go release them. This is grossly atypical to the norm of people either at least waiting for someone to be arrested before hacking, shooting, or blowing up doors to go 'jailbreak'. If anything, this borders a level of meta-gaming the system itself but is more- by definition, griefing and should be handled as such.

    Literally disabling securities ability to do their job should alone be covered by the Rule 4 clause: "Major shenanigans that may disrupt the normal flow of the round are not allowed at roundstart. This includes big or lethal fights, briefing brawls, riots, and massive equipment restrictions" as it is something major that does disrupt the flow of the round and occurs right at round start, normally before there is even briefing.

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    ALSO please note that in their communication's with Novacti, Chainsaw apparently lies about their intentions. If they were just stealing the Megaphone, that's whatever. It's small and kinda a running joke by this point, who cares? But they didn't Just do that even by their own admission in a previous post. They willfully sabotaged several key doors and walls around security itself (nowhere close to the megaphone) for their jailbreak purpose without provocation.

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    Senior Member solidfury7's Avatar
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    I am posting on this thread to concur that whilst MP, I have had similar experiences with Chainsaw, who often goes out of his way to cripple security as often as he can.

    I would like to say that he is quite open with it, often speaking about it in discord, these logs are from the discord and show him describing doing what is currently reported.





    Whilst Discord logs should always be taken with a pinch of salt, I think these are extremely relevant in this situation, especially considering I have witnessed similar behaviour and so have a various handful of MPs.
    Spoiler Spoiler:



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    Senior Member scsnv's Avatar
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    This report is being handled in conjunction with a separate, internal issue. It is probable that a decision handled here will be made in conjunction with, or accounting for, the other issue as well. As always, forum and report rules still apply to this thread.
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    Moderator ChainsawMullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    1. Chainsaw has previously, on multiple occasions, sabotaged doors around, in, and the Command and Security areas.
    If you're referring to the CIC doors I very rarely do it to take Jones and trade him with the Synth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    2. Chainsaw has done these actions when they cannot be rectified in an IC manner do to the the lack of engineering staff. (Note that in the elements of Rule 4 that the person need not have intention to have committed griefing. This is an unfixable, unwinable situation for MPs that Chainsaw is pre-establishing.)
    Unwinnable? MPs are busted right now, any degree of competency and you can put forty people on the floor with no chance of proper retaliation. Most people who enter brig are cuffed and grabbed and cannot move in the first place, and even if they do they just get flashed for "trying to escape". The idea that MPs are in an "unwinnable situation" is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    3. By Chainsaw's admission there has been little to NO contact between themselves and other MPs. While it is true that you are permitted to retain information from previous experiences, preemptively acting upon them without justification for that round seems to be an abuse of the system. Otherwise, it would imply that because I got into a fight with someone else previously (in an IC manner) that I can continue my fight where we left off and immediately start shooting at him at round start if that's the level of escalation that we've been at. Similarly, if I so chose, the statement of: "I have an IC reason" is being treated as permission to 'do-whatever against the USMC' whats to say I can't break into research and IO areas and steal and hide all the defcon data? You may claim that it's 'different for IOs and Research because it's a core game element', and MPs arent? Are they not a giant area of the ship? A job listed on the manifest every single round? With a entire page dedicated to the administration of Military Law? How aren't they core? Or does this imply that the MPs are permitted to retrain an IC reason from previous rounds to go ahead and arrest Greene on sight even if they're just climbing out of cryo?
    MPs have little to no impact on the round, at best they make it harder for marines to win. Comparing them to IOs or Research is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    4. How is there such a lack of understanding that you have hacked and literally destroyed walls, not windows, WALLS, as to allow easy access into secure areas of the brig and that not be a major issue to Security to the point that it makes arresting people and keeping them in the brig pointless? And done this in such a manner that we cannot ICly fix the issue either? Again, the standard doesn't examine intent per the rules. Just because it wasn't your "intent to do this while there were no engineers around" it doesn't matter that there were no Engineers around to clean up the mess, thus making it impossible for us to address. In previous rounds, we did have a CE but due to how many doors were hacked it was hard to coordinate to get them to actually get them all. I think you have FAR exceeded the 'reasonable' standard on that.
    I have not broken any walls, I don't know where you're getting this from. The north & south are covered by windows, not walls. Hell, I rarely even do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    Note: We punish Xenos who try to "rush" defenses on LZs despite them KNOWING that both A: Marines exist and B: they're indeed assured to be coming. But the core action here is that the Xenos are attempting to, without true knowledge of where they are landing, establish and unfair advantage prior to Marines even having contact with them. This is the same event. Prior to any contact between MPs, as Chainsaw has admitted, likes to go and assure that they can debilitate security by removing any means of keeping people in jail to jailbreak people out when they see fit to do so. Remember, intent isn't really measured here so wheither they knew we couldn't get it fixed or not doesn't matter per the rules. Im sure this is so that if any of their buddies, squad mates, otherwise get jailed they can easily just go release them. This is grossly atypical to the norm of people either at least waiting for someone to be arrested before hacking, shooting, or blowing up doors to go 'jailbreak'. If anything, this borders a level of meta-gaming the system itself but is more- by definition, griefing and should be handled as such.
    We really don't, plenty of times tcomms get destroyed by a runner or lurker like three minutes after drop and it's an IC issue because marines should be defending it properly.

    I also have never actually participated in or incited a jailbreak while playing CM. At best if one occurs I am an inactive participant if the doors haven't been fixed. I don't even know if one HAS occurred as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi View Post
    Literally disabling securities ability to do their job should alone be covered by the Rule 4 clause: "Major shenanigans that may disrupt the normal flow of the round are not allowed at roundstart. This includes big or lethal fights, briefing brawls, riots, and massive equipment restrictions" as it is something major that does disrupt the flow of the round and occurs right at round start, normally before there is even briefing.
    You're not disabled from doing your job. You can post watchers at the entrances or get someone to build a barricade, or if there's MTs get one to fix the wall. Once someone is in a cell they literally cannot escape unless people free them, it's really not a difficult situation, just an irritating one.


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