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Thread: Thoughts on CM Balance

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on CM Balance

    Well, since absolutely no one asked me... here's how I would balance CM at the moment.

    Here's my spreadsheet, because I like spreadsheets. I try to summarize everything in the post text, but the spreadsheet will definitely help understand the numbers, formulas, and the little details.
    Apparently I can't summarize for shit, so just look at my spreadsheet you reprobates:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    When reading the chart there are a few things to keep in mind. All of these numbers, especially the TTK numbers, assume the xeno is standing unmoving right in front of the marine. Expect them to not hold up in combat. All of the numbers are also for elder xenos, so the age could effect things. I might have made some xenos like the queen too tanky, since she requires an amazing 1,290 hollow point 9mm bullets to take down assuming she's at full armor. My only comment is that you're stupid for shooting hollow points at a literal walking tank and you deserve what you get. Even the M41 has trouble dropping a queen without the aid of support weapons, though high AP weapons really put a dent into queen the fairly quickly. There's also a whole mess of notes in there. They'll help understand my mindset, but aren't too important. The chart also doesn't at all take into account FF or HvH. It's all about the ratios though. I have the pulse rifles doing ten damage per shot. If you say, "A human has 100 hp and the pulse rifle needs to kill one in two shots so it needs to do fifty damage" that's fine. Multiply all of the damage and xeno health by five. The ratios stay the same.


    A lot of these thoughts stem from me not liking the idea of things moving towards being "weapon range" oriented. I respect that those changes are coming and that's that, but I figured it wouldn't hurt too much to put my thoughts out there. Much respect to the whole dev team for the work they do. My problem with the idea the incoming balance changes stems from the idea of damage going up and down as the range changes, and of some weapons having steep effectiveness falloff outside of a meter or two. I understand that this is a game of 2d spacemen who can only see seven or so meters in any given direction without the assistance of binoculars, but the idea of switching to throwing things as a backup because they're outside of my SMG range is too silly. The current idea is that the weapons should have niches, and I like that idea a lot. I think with the right tools and systems in place they can be balanced within their niches.

    There's a couple of assumptions that I'm making over how things work or could work behind the scenes.
    The two big changes that I think would need to be made are:
    1) AP ammunition cannot simply ignore all armor. Instead it ignores a percentage of the armor. So if something has armor that eats 80% of the damage it takes and an AP bullet reduces the armor by 50%, the armor ends up only soaking 40% of the damage.
    2) Xeno armor needs to have a maximum and minimum effectiveness per xeno. For instance, a crusher's armor might provide 70% damage reduction at 100% armor, and drop down to 45% damage reduction when armor broken.
    This does a few things. The first change to AP being percentile means that it can have a greater effect on more heavily armored xenos while having a negligible effect on less heavily armored xenos (and no effect on unarmored xenos). It also means that more fine tuning can be done to damage values, further allowing weapon roles and niches to be reinforces.The second change allows the developers to have more control over just how tanky a xenomorph is. When combined with dodge chance based survivability this makes it easier to define a xenomorph as a frontline fighter, skirmisher, or flanker.

    Alright, let's get into weapon niches and how these changes help reinforce them:
    M41A - I see the M41 as being the bread and butter rifle of the USCM. This should be the weapon of choice for most marines choosing to engage in front line combat. It shoots in single shot or three round burst (though probably SS or FA once the FA change drops). The reason that this is the bread and butter rifle of the USCM is that it has fairly available AP ammo, good sustainability of fire, and has the damage needed to fight armored threats (xeno or human) on the frontline. For purely explanatory purposes, suppose the M41 does 10 damage per bullet. That means that a three round burst does 30 damage if they all connect. If shooting an enemy with 50% reduction due to armor (on the mid-high end of armor in my spreadsheet) then the round only do 5 damage each, so the burst damage drops to 15. If they had been AP rounds and only counted the armor for half then the burst damage would have been 22.5.

    M39 - The M39 retains it's role as a more mobile firearm, a modern pdw. It does more damage than a pistol, but slightly less damage than the M41A. That is made up for by having significantly larger magazine sizes and a larger burst (a higher RoF in the FA update). It also has less effect on mobility than the M41. Consider an M39 doing two less damage than the M41 above. It will still hit for more damage in a burst, since it's 8*4 damage is 32 per burst over 30 per. Where the M39 loses out is that the smaller rounds have an AP penalty, counting enemy armor as being thicker than it actually is. 20% thicker here, purely for explanation. Consider the M41 example above with an enemy that had 50% damage reduction armor. The M41 did 15 damage, but the M39 would only do 8*4*(1-(.5*1.2)) = 12.8 damage. With both weapons shooting AP Ammo the M41 does 22.5 damage compared to the M39's 18.56 damage. When it comes to portability and ammunition capacity the M39 is superior in every way, but there is a definite argument that the "ability to kill things" is the only stat that matters for a firearm. Against lightly armored targets the M39 will be superior damage wise, but the M41 does about the same against mid armored xenos and far outpaces it against heavily or super-heavily armored xenos (think crushers, fortified defenders, and to a lesser extent queens).

    Shotguns - The niche of shotguns are that they have higher burst damage than the M41. They deliver slightly less than two M41 bursts worth of damage every two seconds, so slightly less DPS overall than the M41. They also suffer accuracy related penalties due to distance more quickly than the M41 does. Flechette ammunition has inherent AP at the expense of lower damage. Buckshot has higher damage at the expense of having an AP penalty. Slugs are good damage with a slight AP bonus, but they are very all or none due to dodge chance.

    L42A - The L42A would stay mostly the same, thought I would make it a kit weapon, similar to the SU-6 or the M41AE2. Call it the DMR kit. It has 10% built in AP due to having an extended barrel (and can't accept the EB attachment in my proposed attachment changes). It is meant to act as a support weapon with a B8 or as a long range weapon with an S8. The DMR kit would come with both. It does more damage per shot than the M41A while doing less damage overall due to having a lower RoF.

    M56 - I think my proposed M56 is slightly scarier than the already scary M56, but I'm completely fine with that. After all, it is gyro stabilized auto targeting machine gun carried around by a badass to annihilate the enemies of the USCM. Some of the larger xenos practically require M56 support to take down, which I'm completely okay with.

    I also have thoughts on the balance of attachments, but the big changes are that the BC goes away (because it's stinky), the extended barrel gives an additional 10% AP to any weapon that can equip it, and the suppressor gives an additional -10% AP to any weapon it is equipped to. There are no more plus or minus damage attachments though (outside of attachments that modify melee damage). This means that a weapon tricked out for pure damage doesn't really do too much more damage versus lightly armored targets, and a suppressed weapon is still able to kill lightly armored opponents fine but runs into problems facing heavies on the frontline.

    And before anyone says "Gitlab it", I realize that is the proper course of action. This would be a handful of tickets at least though, and I want to have lots of other opinions on this. Besides, the game is moving in another direction, so gitlabbing this wouldn't do much at this point.





    You're still reading? Here's some more radical changes that I want to see but aren't a crucial part of the balance and are instead more stylistic changes:
    Give the scout spec an automatic shotgun fed from a 12 or 16 round detachable box magazine. Call them the breacher spec. They are only issued normal ammunition at first, but can purchase incendiary or breaching mags with their 45 points. Incendiary are self explanatory. The breaching slugs are really good at destroying walls and other terrain, probably taking down a resin wall in a shot or two max. This new spec is a high risk high reward close range spec, using the cloak to either close the distance or to escape.

    Replace the L42A model with the now unused model for the M4RA. Chamber it in the same 10x28 caseless that the M56 uses just for lore reasons. The 10x28 caseless should be available from the vendor, though the M4RA can only be acquired through the before mentioned DMR kits. The M42A is canonically chambered in 10x28 as well, which could cause a problem here. The solution is to either ignore that because it's dumb and say that it's chambered in an even larger caseless round or say that it's the WY-102 rifle instead, which is chambered in a larger round (and which also looks very similar to the M42A anyway, so the model can be reused).




    TLDR;
    I like weapon niches:
    M41 is the general damage dealer.
    M39 is better versus lightly armored opponents.
    M37 has higher burst damage but lower DPS than the M41.
    L42A gets a buff but becomes a kit weapon. Fills the support weapon role as either an IFF weapon or as a long range weapon.
    M56 is terrifying, as it should be.


    The key questions to ask here are "How quickly should X weapon drop Y xeno so that it is fun for both sides." How many bursts from an M41 should a drone take? A warrior? A queen? How much should AP ammunition effect those numbers? Please feel free to respond with any thoughts, feedback, concerns, criticism, or hurtful words. Thanks!
    Last edited by UnwaveringGrey; 03-19-2020 at 04:33 PM. Reason: kindly suggested actually reading the spreadsheet

  2. #2
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    Do not change anything with the L42. You might not see it as anything but a boring IFF support weapon, but I and carbine gang members finally have a chase gun that doesn't suck. It's been a long time coming, and the single possible thing we'd like for L42 changes is for QF to be able to be used with L42

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefinitelyAlone0309 View Post
    You might not see it as anything but a boring IFF support weapon, but I and carbine gang members finally have a chase gun that doesn't suck.
    That's the problem with the L42. It doesn't know what it wants to be. Half the time it wants to be a DMR and half the time it wants to be a "chase gun". I think the question here is what does one of the guns need to do in order to fill that "chase gun" niche? Is it not having a wield penalty for movement speed? Is it a high rate of fire for single shots? I wouldn't be surprised if that niche is better filled by one of the other guns with how things are laid out in my spreadsheet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnwaveringGrey View Post
    That's the problem with the L42. It doesn't know what it wants to be. Half the time it wants to be a DMR and half the time it wants to be a "chase gun". I think the question here is what does one of the guns need to do in order to fill that "chase gun" niche? Is it not having a wield penalty for movement speed? Is it a high rate of fire for single shots? I wouldn't be surprised if that niche is better filled by one of the other guns with how things are laid out in my spreadsheet...
    I personally don't see the issue with that. M41 can either be a basic "jack of all trades" gun for medium range, or you can put a scope on and use it at long range. The shotgun can either be a hand cannon with buckshot, an armor shredder with flechette, or a support weapon with slug. M39 can either be a bullet hose with BFA, or a one-handed gun that's mostly for self defense with armbrace and gyro Having variety in a weapon is good, and for the basic no attachment L42, chase is its purpose. Now, of course, you can put a scope on it and utilize its no fall off and great accuracy to snipe xeno with it like any other gun with attachments. The L42's niche is that it has no fall off (which while is perfect for sniping, it's also great for chasing because you don't have to worry about having to stay in a certain range and risk yourself); no wield delay if you take out the stock, and only a little bit of wield slowdown. 2 out of its 3 perks are amazing for chase potential, and even the no fall off thing also works into the whole aspect.

    If L42 HAS to be thrown into a category, I'll much prefer it to be a chase gun, and not a boring sniping gun. Buckshot needs you to be in very close range, M39 has awful fall off and spread; so really the only good chase gun in the game right now is the L42. I really wish to see a DMR purposefully built for sniping, but I'd prefer it be a different gun altogether and not the L42.

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    Just wanted to add a small detail. I think buckshot should be nearly useless against any armored caste. It should fuckup T1s pretty bad but basically bounce off anything with significant armor.

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    M41 is the general damage dealer. - fair
    M39 is better versus lightly armored opponents - you don't see lightly armored opponents most of the game, all the heavy weight lifting is being done by T3s and brawlers like warriors or spitters.
    M37 has higher burst damage but lower DPS than the M41 - stats aside, it stuns and scares off xenos. That's literally all that matters.
    L42A gets a buff but becomes a kit weapon. Fills the support weapon role as either an IFF weapon or as a long range weapon - Please fucking no, IFF & Sniper builds aren't what the L42 is supposed to do. People that say L42 should be a DMR are either not familiar with the current meta or are CM coders that don't know what they want to do with the game. It's supposed to be a chase weapon with QFA like it used to be.
    M56 is terrifying, as it should be - it certainly isn't terrifying, it deals piss poor damage and only retarded xenos ever die to it.

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    TLDR:
    M41 - Hot nostalgia Garbage, that is good only in massive push to scare of the xenos running away from you. Also there is case of Heavy Pulse Rifle which is like x2 better (More ammo, higher damage, the drop in firerate is not seen)
    M39 - Light garbage, its not good versus light armored opponents, becuse they will just run off once they got hurt
    M37 - Main damage dealer, and main cause of death to the xenos who are getting killed becuse of PB, or being chased down after someone PB them.
    L42A - Support Weapon
    M56 - With current state of sentry M56 are absolutly garbage -> Have less damage, shoot less accurate, require marine to handle, have lower firerate

    I dont see a point, of trying to justify taking other weapons then M37, which is bread and butter of the marines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnwaveringGrey View Post
    ... Snip... Slugs are good damage with a slight AP bonus, but they are very all or none due to dodge chance...
    Heh... No, they aren't.

    We can dream that Pulse Rifle is a "bread and butter" weapon of marines. We can imagine how it was in the movies, but truth...
    "Please would you like to be
    Somewhere floating free
    Seems my destiny's
    Captain Fantasy"

    SS13 as a whole has 7 tiles range of view. Not even SS14 will solve this issue. What purpose has a gun for "medium" range when your target can either close the distance, or run away in a split second? That is why buckshot shotgun rules on every server. What every antag and sec takes from armory as first? Buckshot + Shotguns.
    On pure HvH server that can be fixed with slowing down both parties. If you and your enemy can't sprint past your screen in a second, then medium range makes sense. You can't do that on CM. Currently there only exist two "Ranges". Close and Long. On your screen, or outside your screen. Entire concept of "medium" range is demolished because its only 3 last tiles between edge of the screen and outside of Buckshot range. Its totally not worth it to specialise in dealing with threats specifically on those three tiles.

    This new update will be hot garbage and I showed my concerns long ago in special Monkey Dev post, yet I was ignored. It seems that nobody can comprehend that even marine in Heavy Armor can move from "close" range trough "medium" range up to "long" range in mere second.

    As mentioned above, there is no "Light" targets in match marines vs benos. Even runner is tanky enough.

    If pulse carabine is up to change, I would like to see it as proper offscreen weapon. Making it bolt-action, giving it IFF during being scoped and good damage would be amazing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teruyo View Post
    TLDR:
    M41 - Hot nostalgia Garbage, that is good only in massive push to scare of the xenos running away from you. Also there is case of Heavy Pulse Rifle which is like x2 better (More ammo, higher damage, the drop in firerate is not seen)
    M39 - Light garbage, its not good versus light armored opponents, becuse they will just run off once they got hurt
    M37 - Main damage dealer, and main cause of death to the xenos who are getting killed becuse of PB, or being chased down after someone PB them.
    L42A - Support Weapon
    M56 - With current state of sentry M56 are absolutly garbage -> Have less damage, shoot less accurate, require marine to handle, have lower firerate

    I dont see a point, of trying to justify taking other weapons then M37, which is bread and butter of the marines.
    I think I was unclear at first. I'm not trying to describe things as they currently stand. I looked at all of the numbers and did a lot of thinking, and I came up with a bunch of new numbers that I think should make things more fun while also pushing weapons into specific niches. A refinement of the current system rather than the incoming entirely new system based on weapons having a three tile optimal range which seems to be the only place where they do any damage. To be fair, I might be misunderstanding the incoming changes. They might be indicating a three tile range where those weapons absolutely shred things. There was a chart showing relative gun damage at various ranges, but that doesn't help since there is no indication of enemy health.


    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Heh... No, they aren't.
    They are in my spreadsheet. Slugs to 10 less damage than buckshot (down to 70 from 80), but they don't suffer from a 25% increase in enemy armor effectiveness and they can benefit from extended barrel, which buckshot cannot.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    If pulse carabine is up to change, I would like to see it as proper offscreen weapon. Making it bolt-action, giving it IFF during being scoped and good damage would be amazing.
    How effective does it need to be in your book? Let's say that a queen stops just off screen. How many shots should it take to drop her? Ignore the fact that yes, she will inevitably run away at around half health. How many shots for a warrior? For a lurker? For a drone?

    You're right, the base issue is that it's the blind fighting the blind. But even then, there are things we can do to keep the gunplay interesting (and somewhat realistic).


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco Ward View Post
    Just wanted to add a small detail. I think buckshot should be nearly useless against any armored caste. It should fuckup T1s pretty bad but basically bounce off anything with significant armor.
    That's the idea. They bounce off of anything with even a little armor. Though looking back at the numbers now, maybe I need to up the buckshot AP penalty by another 5% - 10%?


    @ DefinitelyAlone & Avalanchee, I'm not convinced that there isn't something else that can do that same "chase gun" job better with the new numbers that I'm proposing, but I'll think on it and give a more proper reply in a bit. Thanks for clarifying what's important for a chase gun to be able to do it's job, it helps.

  10. #10
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    Cabal makes a very good point.
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    SS13 as a whole has 7 tiles range of view. Not even SS14 will solve this issue. What purpose has a gun for "medium" range when your target can either close the distance, or run away in a split second? ~~ Currently there only exist two "Ranges". Close and Long. On your screen, or outside your screen. Entire concept of "medium" range is demolished because its only 3 last tiles between edge of the screen and outside of Buckshot range.~~If pulse carabine is up to change, I would like to see it as proper offscreen weapon.
    With the speeds everyone travels at, there is no real medium range. You’d need some kind of zero-windup effect that mimics what the 2x scope does now (or maybe make the reflex and red dot sights do this?) for there to be a real medium range, which would be 4-12 tiles, provided you could move at full speed and still shoot. Then any scope that does an actual zoom-out (which would take a windup) would show you your long range and beyond. And you’d have to give all the xenos the ability to do the 2x scope vision, or they’ll cry into ever-growing mounds of dried tear-salt.

    But at least there would be a medium range.

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