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Thread: Ladies and gentlemen, this Xenos Mad No. 25

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    Admin Warfan1815's Avatar
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    Spetr
    Ladies and gentlemen this Xenos Mad No. 26

    no but seriously, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT. You're seriously telling me. You're seriously telling me shotgun's should get nerfed? Because oooo when I'm in a 4v1 situation I don't magically deflect the fucking shotgun shells. Now listen, just because you're stunned doesn't mean it's a problem. If you're all alone, yeah it's a problem. But that's what you get for being a fucking imbecile and not having xenos nearby. If you got good you would understand that you're not some fucking ultimate killing machine, teamwork makes the dreamwork. I'm sorry that your little erection of killing an entire room of humans by yourself will never be fulfilled.
    "Come on chaps! Why just dust off the OB flames it'll create. Nothing the USCM can't handle!"
    Currently playing as a sublimely gentlemanly British chap: Warris 'Haig' Fernsby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfan1815 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen this Xenos Mad No. 26

    no but seriously, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT. You're seriously telling me. You're seriously telling me shotgun's should get nerfed? Because oooo when I'm in a 4v1 situation I don't magically deflect the fucking shotgun shells. Now listen, just because you're stunned doesn't mean it's a problem. If you're all alone, yeah it's a problem. But that's what you get for being a fucking imbecile and not having xenos nearby. If you got good you would understand that you're not some fucking ultimate killing machine, teamwork makes the dreamwork. I'm sorry that your little erection of killing an entire room of humans by yourself will never be fulfilled.
    I don't really have a dog in this fight, but 95% of the time when I get slugged it's during a general push on a cade by a guy hiding behind one, and it gets followed up with grenade spam. CQC isn't really an issue as long as you're not dumb and are decently robust, since any xeno that has any business mixing it up with PB marines is just as dangerous as they are and it's a lot easier to juke the shot when you're up close. The situation of "I see shotgun unga around corner, I run up to shotgun unga, I ded" doesn't happen if you have a brain. The dangerous ones are the ones that you don't see because they're concealed behind a cade with 6+ other marines and xenos also on-screen, and they generally nail you from 5-10 tiles away.

    The issue I have like that is something like the one I'd imagine you'd have if they brought one-hit neuro back, added damage to it, and every round randomly made half the sentinels look like other castes. It's the same issue I have with most of the other cheesy marine weapons (namely offscreen SADAR, UGLs, and the combination of CAS/OB calls mixed with a ton of metagaming fake lases): you often can't reasonably identify that the threat even exists before it kills you. You can look at any xeno and know from the sprite exactly what it is and what it can do. You can obviously distinguish flamethrowers, sniper rifles, SADAR tubes (if you see them onscreen rather than getting gibbed from 30 tiles away), teslas, HMGs, sentries, the APC, &c.

    It's actually very similar to the main issue I have with the scatter spitter sentinel. A marine can reasonably expect to win a close-in fight against a standard sentinel, but the scatter spitter has an identical sprite and can (if RNG plays nice) floor a marine with one or two PB spits. That's close to zero counterplay, beyond the same advice that powergame-y marines give of just not getting anywhere near one at any time, which obviously ain't realistic. It's also the same issue that pre-rework boilers had, where random grunts had zero way to know that an acid cloud was about to hit, leading to the usual and understandable salt about getting gassed out if they reacted even a second too slow or got blocked.

    tl;dr: As usual, it's not necessarily an issue with the weapon itself as long as you aren't playing dumb, it's an issue of not being able to accurately identify threats before they kill you. TBH I think that the correct approach is to remove knockdown-stun from slugs against anything except young/mature T1s and young T2s. I'd be fine with it keeping the vision impair and maybe having a slow or short standing stun, but a spammable zero-warning ranged knockdown was annoying when it was sentinels corner-peeking with one-hit neuro and it's annoying now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Dice View Post
    I don't really have a dog in this fight, but 95% of the time when I get slugged it's during a general push on a cade by a guy hiding behind one, and it gets followed up with grenade spam. CQC isn't really an issue as long as you're not dumb and are decently robust, since any xeno that has any business mixing it up with PB marines is just as dangerous as they are and it's a lot easier to juke the shot when you're up close. The situation of "I see shotgun unga around corner, I run up to shotgun unga, I ded" doesn't happen if you have a brain. The dangerous ones are the ones that you don't see because they're concealed behind a cade with 6+ other marines and xenos also on-screen, and they generally nail you from 5-10 tiles away.

    The issue I have like that is something like the one I'd imagine you'd have if they brought one-hit neuro back, added damage to it, and every round randomly made half the sentinels look like other castes. It's the same issue I have with most of the other cheesy marine weapons (namely offscreen SADAR, UGLs, and the combination of CAS/OB calls mixed with a ton of metagaming fake lases): you often can't reasonably identify that the threat even exists before it kills you. You can look at any xeno and know from the sprite exactly what it is and what it can do. You can obviously distinguish flamethrowers, sniper rifles, SADAR tubes (if you see them onscreen rather than getting gibbed from 30 tiles away), teslas, HMGs, sentries, the APC, &c.

    It's actually very similar to the main issue I have with the scatter spitter sentinel. A marine can reasonably expect to win a close-in fight against a standard sentinel, but the scatter spitter has an identical sprite and can (if RNG plays nice) floor a marine with one or two PB spits. That's close to zero counterplay, beyond the same advice that powergame-y marines give of just not getting anywhere near one at any time, which obviously ain't realistic. It's also the same issue that pre-rework boilers had, where random grunts had zero way to know that an acid cloud was about to hit, leading to the usual and understandable salt about getting gassed out if they reacted even a second too slow or got blocked.

    tl;dr: As usual, it's not necessarily an issue with the weapon itself as long as you aren't playing dumb, it's an issue of not being able to accurately identify threats before they kill you. TBH I think that the correct approach is to remove knockdown-stun from slugs against anything except young/mature T1s and young T2s. I'd be fine with it keeping the vision impair and maybe having a slow or short standing stun, but a spammable zero-warning ranged knockdown was annoying when it was sentinels corner-peeking with one-hit neuro and it's annoying now.
    Well the thing is. Xenos in a group can really shrug off in 4 by 4 corridors these shotgun shells. Yeah sure one of your friendlies may of got shot. But drag him back, he'll be fine. Really shotguns are not at all good against boiler spam. If you have to leave your cades you can't give a withering fire of shotgun shells. Shotguns are the ultimate counter against any xenos trying to attack the cades and slowly wither it down, which in all aspects is incredibly unfair and not really fun for either side it just being a endless merry go round of a runner scratching the cade, retreating. scratching again, retreating. The shotgun stops this meta tactic of slowly withering down a defending marine group. it's a trade off of bullets per second, and range. For damage and stun. If you actually had a proper offensive going shotguns really aren't that good.

    Also, if you walk up to a cade and expect not to be shotgun'd then it's your fault you get stun'd and killed.
    "Come on chaps! Why just dust off the OB flames it'll create. Nothing the USCM can't handle!"
    Currently playing as a sublimely gentlemanly British chap: Warris 'Haig' Fernsby

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    I wish shotguns were nerfed just because I think the marines should be playing as a team (covering fire etc.)

    But with shotguns so strong its like.. solo shotgun vets vs xenos and everyone else is throwing snowballs.

    I wish shotguns were a useful alternative, but not the primary
    Felix the Synth: hat fanatic, nice robot, one time double agent almayer synth executed for sedition. Occasional murderous mopbot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfan1815 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen this Xenos Mad No. 26

    no but seriously, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT. You're seriously telling me. You're seriously telling me shotgun's should get nerfed? Because oooo when I'm in a 4v1 situation I don't magically deflect the fucking shotgun shells. Now listen, just because you're stunned doesn't mean it's a problem. If you're all alone, yeah it's a problem. But that's what you get for being a fucking imbecile and not having xenos nearby. If you got good you would understand that you're not some fucking ultimate killing machine, teamwork makes the dreamwork. I'm sorry that your little erection of killing an entire room of humans by yourself will never be fulfilled.
    Shotgun buckshot should be nerfed, specifically in that it should do next to no damage to armored xenos. Let it be good for killing lurkers, runners, sentinels, and xenos that have had their armor stripped by other guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfan1815 View Post
    Well the thing is. Xenos in a group can really shrug off in 4 by 4 corridors these shotgun shells. Yeah sure one of your friendlies may of got shot. But drag him back, he'll be fine. Really shotguns are not at all good against boiler spam. If you have to leave your cades you can't give a withering fire of shotgun shells. Shotguns are the ultimate counter against any xenos trying to attack the cades and slowly wither it down, which in all aspects is incredibly unfair and not really fun for either side it just being a endless merry go round of a runner scratching the cade, retreating. scratching again, retreating. The shotgun stops this meta tactic of slowly withering down a defending marine group. it's a trade off of bullets per second, and range. For damage and stun. If you actually had a proper offensive going shotguns really aren't that good.

    Also, if you walk up to a cade and expect not to be shotgun'd then it's your fault you get stun'd and killed.
    So what are xenos supposed to do? We can't slowly wear down FOB cade lines because most of the tools for that (old boilers, old crushers, spitter ranged melt, run-by slashing, &c.) either don't exist or are directly countered by the current PB meta, teslas, sentry spam, &c. We can't force a FOB because your scenario of a four-tile cade isn't realistic on any map except prison station and ice, which most people don't vote for. Most FOBs and forward bases are 8-12 tiles of cades with firing angles on the approach, if not more, nothing short of an empress can take that sort of fire without instantly getting shredded, the melt channel time is 5+ seconds for cades (i.e. more than long enough to get stunned and killed if any marines are around), and even T3 slash damage takes forever to wear down cades.

    This is exacerbated by the current marine meta of turtling in FOB as soon as there are casualties. It's honestly almost more annoying than metarushing on LV and Solaris was.

    Every time I see a cade line broken or help break one, it's broken because xenos found a spot that marines forgot to fortify. A standard Solaris autism-fort has, what, a 10-12 cade east face and 20+ cade south face? With multiple lines of cades, multiple HMGs or sentries, and nothing but an open killing ground for a screen and a half around it? There is literally no way for xenos to force that without the old crusher+boiler combo, so the strategy every time is to check and see if one of the side routes isn't heavily guarded. If tcomms or sec tunnel can't be forced, literally the only intelligent option is to back off and wait for marines to push out... which often never happens, resulting in either an 80+ marine evac or xenos getting boinked by QM in XOOC to force a suicide-rush.

    And no, xenos don't "shrug off" shotguns. Have you ever even played xeno? If you get hit, you're stunned on the ground for five or six seconds, which is ample time for someone to slug you again or throw a grenade. If the marines aren't being overrun by the rest of the xenos, the one who got slugged is dead, short of an elder/ancient warden prae dropping a heal on them while dragging them back. I know because half of what I end up doing when I play warden prae is saving other xenos from dying while stunlocked from slugs and grenades. I've had occasions where I barely lived through marines chaining four or five grenades in a row to keep me on the ground, and that as an ancient T3.

    I also don't know what you mean that shotguns aren't good when marines are being overrun. Shotguns are the only weapon I've seen that give marines a decent chance of making it out of a bad spot. If you're a PFC and a couple xenos are inside the same cade line as you, an M41 or M39 is just going to tickle them before they kill you. If you land a PB you stand a decent chance of being able to run away, and potentially net a kill or two if someone was pushing on less than full health.

    When you say that cades slowly being worn down is unfair... okay? So what do you want? The only other options are that xenos have no viable way of directly assaulting a cade line (i.e. now) if marines do some basic shit, or that xenos destroy cade lines so quickly that there's no need to wear them down. The attrition battle you used to see was balanced. If you could aim for shit, you could punish runners hard. Claymores existed; I don't know how many times I saw runners get fucked over by them. Sentry guns existed. Engineers could, shockingly, repair cades if they didn't all unga off and die. Now it's pointless. Marines build cades, no actual fighting happens at cades unless there aren't enough marines to hold the cades, either because xenos just back off and it stalemates or because xenos find a flank and roll the cades from behind.

    It's shockingly unfun for any match with remotely balanced teams to fall into a stalemate because marine meta says to hide inside the FOB and xenos who know what they're doing won't try to force a decent FOB. Slug stun is only a small part of that, but it is part of it, just like how one-hit neuro was only a small part of hugger combat xeno meta.

    e: And FWIW, I want shotguns scaled back a bit to make room for buffs to other marine weapons. M41 in particular just feels like it's been left behind over the years. I honestly don't enjoy playing PB much when I play marine, any more than I enjoy HPR or M39 AP spam, but if you don't want to be nearly ineffectual you have to run what's good instead of what you enjoy. Same with stuff like flamer spec, I just feel bad for those guys when I play xeno because they're barely an inconvenience.
    Last edited by Flying Dice; 05-13-2020 at 06:02 PM.

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    Senior Member Spetr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfan1815 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen this Xenos Mad No. 26

    no but seriously, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT. You're seriously telling me. You're seriously telling me shotguns should get nerfed? Because oooo when i'm in a 4v1 situation I don't magically deflect the fucking shotgun shells. Now listen, just because you're stunned doesn't mean it's a problem. If you're all alone, yeah it's a problem. But that's what you get for being a fucking imbecile and not having xenos nearby. If you got good you would understand that you're not some fucking ultimate killing machine, teamwork makes the dreamwork. I'm sorry that your little erection of killing an entire room of humans by yourself will never be fulfilled.
    Here's the thing chap, You can be in a 2 Xeno vs 1 Marine situation where 1 Xeno can be a warrior and the other any other caste. If the marine has a shotgun, it turns any situation in a life or death, if you slip up once, the marine PBs your ass and by the time the stun runs if they pump it up fast enough, can be ready to PB your ass again and cause you to die.

    Shotgun PBs are the bread and butter of 'Good Marine Players' who just need to click once and be close to their target to get a permanent un-reviveable kill. Meanwhile Xenos have to play a flawless game when dealing with a shotgun, and even if they kill the shotgun guy, they can still be revived.

    Shotguns are unfair, unfun and plainly unbalanced to deal with as xenos. But I understand why marines don't want it nerfed, it is extremely satisfying to land a PB, but so was hugger combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Dice View Post
    And no, xenos don't "shrug off" shotguns. Have you ever even played xeno? If you get hit, you're stunned on the ground for five or six seconds, which is ample time for someone to slug you again or throw a grenade.
    Come on, did YOU ever PLAYED beno? Shotguns don't stun for five, or six seconds. The longest stun from buckshot/slug you can get is definately less than 2 seconds. During that time beno is immune to non-explosive stun.

    Time to explain it in detail: You have two marines and one T1 beno. First marine shoots slug, hits beno and counts time how long beno is lying on the floor. More, or less Second of stun.
    Then another situation. First marine shoots slug, stuns beno, then second marine immediately shoots his slug and hits beno lying on the floor. Beno stands up as soon as first slug stun wears off.
    Then another situation. First marine shoots slug, stuns beno, then second marine waits till stun from first slug wears off, beno stands up, second marine shoots slugs and then beno gets hit and stunned again.

    So no, you can't stunlock benos if the first stun comes from shotgun. Even UGL nade shoot immediately after beno gets stunned won't explode before beno wakes up.
    You can only chainstun them, but its never guaranteed as RNG accuracy miss exist, as RNG evasion exist, as RNG scatter exist, as your own clicking accuracy, gamble with skilled beno who will try to dodge another stunning projectile as soon as he stands up and such.

    It appears you have to play beno (or observe) a bit more as you are just spreading disinformation.

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    BYOND ticks can probably make the stuns feel longer than the reported values, but buck or slugs will never stun more than 2 IRL seconds unless you have absurdly high ping.

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    Listen, people. I've said it countless of times before, and I'll say it again. This game can't be balanced. Implying that everyone should have equal chances also implies that all of us are equally robust.

    Rounds are based on how many 'good' players a team has. A hedgehog ravager with hummus for brains will quickly die in any given situation. A hardy ancient runner will most likely wipe a baldie squad.

    It's not about how items and weapons work, it's about who uses them, and who you use them against. And when too many shave-head players meet a real full-time boomer on the field, dual-wielding shotguns with the underslung flashlights? Then things are about to get nerfed to the ground. That's just how things are, and there is nothing to be done about it.

    I cry about mechanics. I also complain. Even I have issues how certain things are handled. However, at the very least, I know that I am (probably) wrong, and that is because things can't be taken at face value.

    That doesn't mean things shouldn't change. Change is good. Just don't be fooled by the outcry of newer players in face of Lewin Ingram, Aden Cooper, Owoth Owoss, or anyone else for that matter just because they thought to have had a chance at CQC'ing the biggest boomers of them all.

    Thank you for joining my Ted Talk.

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