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Thread: Staff Report - JarekTheRaptor (Mostly) / KingPhilipIII

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    Staff Report - JarekTheRaptor (Mostly) / KingPhilipIII

    Staff Report
    Your BYOND Key
    GoliathTheDespoiler
    Date of Incident
    May 30, 2020
    Your Character Name?
    Xenomorph Queen
    Their BYOND Key
    JarekTheRaptor (Mostly) / KingPhilipIII
    Approximate time and date of the incident
    4:10am (Central US)
    Which Staff Protocols (//showthrea...-and-Protocols) were broken
    Preserve the RP and Enjoyment of the server. / Enforcement of the rules.
    Description of the incident
    Ice Colony, LZ2 Primary Landing, Hive in Southwest Underground Research.

    After spending the starting few minutes having larvae killed by survivors, I had watched through a sentinel that the dropship had landed at LZ2. I announced to the xenos it had arrived, told them to gather at medical, but by the time I had paid attention to the fighting, we had already pushed them back into the LZ, and the marines were struggling to break out.

    Jarek, or, maybe KingPhilip, made a Queen Mother announcement that we should back up and, effectively, give the marines a fighting chance. I said 'no' in an announcement, had a short back and forth in announcements ICly, then deovi'd, because I figured we may as well just end the round now since marines were already going to retreat regardless.

    I ended up getting in a dispute in PMs with KingPhilipIII, who I argued with about the vailidity of using Queen Mother to tell us that we broke a rule. They DID eventually do an XOOC telling us to get back, but not before the marines were minutes away from evacuating, and there was little point. After threat of being slain by admins, I backed off, waited 60 seconds in the hive with all the xenos, then just went back and finished the round.

    Following this, I recieved a jobban from queen, which I also disagree with, but I'll talk about that in the appeal.
    Evidence
    Logs of PM argument with King Philip:

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: Queenie. As funny as I find this. Y'all need to back off. We told you several times to now, don't make me game end you.

    PM to KingPhilipIII: You're joking, right?

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: Serious as a shark attack. You were told multiple times, both with QM messages and with XOOC not to rush the LZ. Which you did anyway.


    PM to KingPhilipIII: 1. How is it a rush when marines have landed and they failed to push out? 2. Marines do this all the time, how come they never get an earful?

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: 1. You never gave them a chance to leave.

    2. I hate marine metarushing as much as the next guy. I got game ended by ungarushing last round after all. But these are two entirely seperate issues.

    PM to KingPhilipIII: How is it a seperate issue? You could easily enforce this same sort of punishment on the CO for letting it happen. I didn't tell my xenos to fortify LZ2. I told them to regroup at medical to fight. They fought, they won, and now I just want to get the round over with.

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: Look man. I'm gonna be real simple.

    I agree with you. I 100% would not have stopped you in my own opinion, because there's a certain level of subjectiveness to rules enforcement.

    But I'm not stopping you because of that. I'm stopping you because you were told MULTIPLE times by another staff member who decided your push was in violation of the rules to stop, and you ignored them. And now we have another problem. This isn't the time to discuss metarushing. I'll happily discuss it with you on discord if you want. But now, I'm ordering you to pull back. This isn't up for debate. You're about to make this a lot more painful than it needs to be.


    PM to KingPhilipIII: Fine. Tell me who made the decision. I'll report them.

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: JarekTheRaptor.

    Moderator PM from KingPhilipIII: At the end of the day, Jarek's decision came at the fact there were T3s at the LZ on landing, which is in fact a violation of the rules, but the issue really came when you blatantly disobeyed an order to stop and joined in yourself. That's where the dispute is coming from. He doesn't care if the marines get assblasted, he just took issue with the aforementioned factors.

    Following this, PMs from JarekTheRaptor:

    SeniorModerator PM from JarekTheRaptor: Right, Philips done a good job but you seem to take issue with my ruling, so if you have any problems, I'm right here to answer them.


    PM to JarekTheRaptor: Answer them in the report.

    SeniorModerator PM from JarekTheRaptor: I see, I don't need to drag this out any further then.
    How you would punish the accused
    A very firm reminder to please not use Queen Mother as a way to tell xenos are breaking rules. If I was aware THAT was the issue, I would've done something, but they made it seem like they just wanted the round to last 1 hour.

    I would also advise looking back over how enforcing the punishment meta-rushing is done. Punishing command or the queen for the actions of several T3s and other xenos is a bit silly. Perhaps sleeping the frontline and mass-banning would be a better way to prevent that, I don't know.

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    I indeed made the QM announcement asking you to back off, as I saw it as an IC way of communicating to you that you were pushing it with how aggressive the T3's were being on the landing pad without having to expressly tell you "hey, get the fuck out of there or you'll be banned." It did not go as planned. I believe you said something along the lines of "FUCK YOU QUEEN MOTHER I'M DE-OVI'ING LETS GO PUSH".

    I ahelped asking for someone else to take the reigns at that point since I was playing a T3 (though not at the LZ) and ideally didn't want the xenos to just not have a T3 because they were too busy resting in a corner of the map somewhere. Rezbit made an XOOC telling you to back off, and you ignored that as well and continued to push, eventually causing the evacuation of the marines. After that everything else was down to philip. He did say I made the ruling, but I did not, I only ahelped after my attempt to get them to stop didn't work out.

    As far as I've always known, you listen to QM when she tells you to do something. It doesn't matter if you consider the QM to be an "Ic issue" or whatever, It's the QM, it's like telling the queen to go fuck herself when she gives you an order and then proceeding to disobey it. Someone's gonna bwoink you if you do that. Regardless, I'm not really involved in this aside from the QM announcement at the start and ahelping after it, but I'm just explaining this from my POV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarek View Post
    I indeed made the QM announcement asking you to back off, as I saw it as an IC way of communicating to you that you were pushing it with how aggressive the T3's were being on the landing pad without having to expressly tell you "hey, get the fuck out of there or you'll be banned." It did not go as planned. I believe you said something along the lines of "FUCK YOU QUEEN MOTHER I'M DE-OVI'ING LETS GO PUSH".
    I didn't say that. I said what the queen mother said was stupid and made no sense ICly, and then I announced 'fuck it, I'm deoving, let's get these fucks off our planet'. The QM has gained a reputation of being an IC shitposting tool for admins, and when the XOOC came out, we were already about to win, so it was just going to waste time at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarek View Post
    As far as I've always known, you listen to QM when she tells you to do something. It doesn't matter if you consider the QM to be an "Ic issue" or whatever, It's the QM, it's like telling the queen to go fuck herself when she gives you an order and then proceeding to disobey it. Someone's gonna bwoink you if you do that. Regardless, I'm not really involved in this aside from the QM announcement at the start and ahelping after it, but I'm just explaining this from my POV.
    Xenos in the past have gotten away with this for ages, and noone's batted an eye. If an OOC rule was being broken, it should be explained to us in an OOC manner, not treated as the queen mother wanting to give the marines sport, that makes no sense and is LowRP as fuck.

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    Jobanning was done by KingPhilipIII.

    The first (Queen Mother) order was carried out by JarekTheRaptor, who was playing a T3 at the time, and let Philip take over the enforcement.

    The forcing was done by KingPhilip, who had threatened to ban me.

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    I decided after considering the situation a bit more thoroughly that disobeying not just Queen Mother messages but OOC was pretty egregious. As a moderator, it is not within my power to utilize IC means to handle an issue beyond these warnings. So I did what was available to me. I issued a job ban, seeing as I think this behavior indicated he was unfit to play as Queen. I refrained from jumping to a full fledged ban as Goliath has not had significant notes for a VERY long time, but I felt a 'warning' for essentially telling us to shove off when we're enforcing the rules was too little.

    With regards to the situation itself, there seems to be a lot of stuff in contention, as far as my understanding, since I wasn't even paying attention for most of the rush, I was bullshitting with deadchat, I notice the others talking about deleting the Queen so I ask what the issue is. I hear that she apparently ignored both QM messages and XOOC announcements to withdraw from the LZ2. I began acting on this information, which should explain my response to him in PMs. At this time I just figured they wanted us to stop them from ending the round through overaggression, I didn't realize an actual violation that qualified as xeno metarushing had taken place. I later learned this was the product of T3s camping LZ2, and I decided the onus of this issue still fell upon the Queen, as if we order you to retreat, you are the Queen. You will enforce the Queen Mother's will, and then those that refuse to obey you become our target.

    That last part falls into why I issued a jobban. As far as I was tracking, you were not just aware of the T3s and their rulebreaking behavior but condoning it, by telling the QM to fuck off and pushing yourself. This is not okay.

    There's a reason we hold you accountable to the actions of your subordinates. We typically cannot ban entire groups of players. We'd run out of players very quickly if we banned every marine involved in a metarush for example. That's why we opt to IC actions. They let us rectify issues without seeking such nuclear issues. Seeing as xenomorphs have no free will and are REQUIRED to listen to the Queen, if we tell you as a whole to desist with behavior, you order them to do so, and that system in which players obey the authority of the big loud messages gets the majority out of there. Those that don't are now insubordinate to the Queen, and are targeted themselves.

    You undermined this authority that lets us peacefully resolve issues. You said 'fuck it just keep murdering I'm gonna come murder too' and so shit rolled back up hill and hit you in the face. Again, we're mods. We cannot smite you ICly. So you received an administrative punishment instead.

    As far as not taking the QM messages seriously, this I guess is just becoming an endemic issue. We typically do not use these to fluff and bullshit with the xenos. They are used to either convey information or orders by an admin during an event, or are used by us as an IC alternative to the XOOC announcements to issue orders and warnings. They are written in flowery and regal manners because we are acting in the persona of the Queen Mother, but you should not be mistaking these for something you can brush off. This is just us trying to be diverse in our messages. They will more often than note contain obvious OOC orders, such as go off yourself and stop delaying, or stop pushing because you're doing SOMETHING wrong.
    Last edited by KingPhilipIII; 05-30-2020 at 10:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoliathTheDespoiler View Post
    I didn't say that. I said what the queen mother said was stupid and made no sense ICly, and then I announced 'fuck it, I'm deoving, let's get these fucks off our planet'. The QM has gained a reputation of being an IC shitposting tool for admins, and when the XOOC came out, we were already about to win, so it was just going to waste time at that point.



    Xenos in the past have gotten away with this for ages, and noone's batted an eye. If an OOC rule was being broken, it should be explained to us in an OOC manner, not treated as the queen mother wanting to give the marines sport, that makes no sense and is LowRP as fuck.
    When you de-ovi'd was roughly the time I realised you weren't going to get the message I was trying to get across with QM, and thus, I ahelped the situation and other mods dealt with it. I've never seen QM be used much for shitposting and when it is, it's fairly obvious it's a shitpost and not a serious request so I don't know where that's coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimesAndPlaces View Post
    To make it all easier, who:

    Job-Banned Queen?

    Ordered Queen to fall back the first time?

    Forced Queen to fall back the second time?
    Kingphilip job-banned the queen, I had no part in that outside of being in mod-chat and talking to them. Kingphilip also mostly handled the queen in general. I did the initial QM in hopes you'd go "Ok QM is asking me to do something I get it lets listen to them" without having to explicitly XOOC, and Rezbit did the XOOC that was promptly ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingPhilipIII View Post
    There's a reason we hold you accountable to the actions of your subordinates. We typically cannot ban entire groups of players. We'd run out of players very quickly if we banned every marine involved in a metarush for example. That's why we opt to IC actions. They let us rectify issues without seeking such nuclear issues. Seeing as xenomorphs have no free will and are REQUIRED to listen to the Queen, if we tell you as a whole to desist with behavior, you order them to do so, and that system in which players obey the authority of the big loud messages gets the majority out of there. Those that don't are now insubordinate to the Queen, and are targeted themselves.
    You should ban entire groups of players that are violating the rules. Just because there's a group of them doesn't make them any less guilty. IC actions are, in my humble opinion, something that can, and should be treated ICly. If a message from the admiral came to marines to tell them to stop pushing and give the xenos a fighting chance, you'd see the EXACT same thing happen with the majority of commanding officers, including the whitelisted. If not them outright refusing the orders, then entire squads. Xenos have no free will, yes, but they are also animals. They aren't going to think that the big scary cavemen with rifles should come out of their cage to have a better chance of shooting at them. I understand that what I did as a queen at the time was stupid, but I did it in protest of what I thought was a biased and unfair decision on the parts of staff.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingPhilipIII View Post
    As far as not taking the QM messages seriously, this I guess is just becoming an endemic issue. We typically do not use these to fluff and bullshit with the xenos. They are used to either convey information or orders by an admin during an event, or are used by us as an IC alternative to the XOOC announcements to issue orders and warnings. They are written in flowery and regal manners because we are acting in the persona of the Queen Mother, but you should not be mistaking these for something you can brush off. This is just us trying to be diverse in our messages. They will more often than note contain obvious OOC orders, such as go off yourself and stop delaying, or stop pushing because you're doing SOMETHING wrong.
    You don't 'typically', you always do it. Consistently. As a staff team, I can't count on two hands how many times an actually serious message from the Queen Mother has come down the pipeline. If an OOC issue is being an issue, treat it OOCly, say it OOCly, and punish it OOCly, don't act like it's a chance to railroad players ICly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiChii View Post
    Here's my problem with this entire situation.

    A round directly before this one, that I know everyone in this thread was in.

    -- Marines where in the hive not even five...six minutes after they landed; and nothing was done at all about that.
    -- Next round, xenos are on the LZ early...the EXACT same thing the marines did previously...and it's a huge issue, job ban the queen, yell at the xenos in XOOC, QM them, etc etc.


    My problem is the double standard. The "it's xenos fault if they get rushed" but if marines get rushed then an admin/staff is screaming at the xenos.

    The exact same thing, back to back rounds...I didn't see the CO getting job banned... (Nor am I saying that they should.) I'm just pointing out the blatant bias/double standard when it comes to dealing with issues like this.
    I absolutely agree with this being the underlying issue, and it is partially relevant to the situation. There wasn't an uproar about a CO or XO being banned for this. Or an Admiral ordering marines to slow down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiChii View Post
    snip
    An important distinction here is something I told another player. Yes both types of rushing are an issue. They are similar but not equivalent. Marines landed in a hot LZ for a xeno rush and immediately came under attack before having any prep time.

    Alternatively, marines aggressively push the xenos defenses and overwhelmed them quickly.

    I'm not saying the latter isn't an issue, but it is a different kind of issue.

    It's also much easier to hold the Queen accountable, as she is completely in control of her minions, is the only one in control of her minions, and capable of overseeing them all with ease if they're doing something wrong, and can correct them very easily. The Queen can overwatch any single target at any time, has far fewer to overwatch, and can message them much easier. As such, Queens have far less excuse when their hive runs rampant. Marines, being the crayon eating brainlets they are, stop taking orders about 12 seconds after landing. It is very difficult to control them without the ability to influence the round ICly, because we cannot ban 50 marines for metarushing. We'd run out of players in a few rounds. Unless the Commander is encouraging their behavior, it's much harder to hold him accountable because he has far more subordinates and not as effective tools for oversight and control. He's not the only one commanding them either. There's no singular leader for the marines in actuality the same way there is for the xenos.

    It's ugly, but it's not the same.

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    That, plain and simple: Is bias.

    Not banning players for fear of running out of players is a terrible, TERRIBLE way to think of it. Not enforcing the rule is what's caused it to become the norm, and nothing about that is going to change unless the maps are designed around preventing it (like LV, which already has a horrible reputation because of it.) or you actually start bringing down the hammer where it's needed.

    Yes, the queen is meant to be totally in charge of the xenos, yes, she can look at them, banish them, and punish them all on her own: But she, I, am not staff. It is not my job to enforce your rules. It is my job to follow them as best as I can, and report when I think a rule is being broken. Queens are players, as are all xenos, and just like marine players, they want to do their own thing. I should not be responsible for finding and singling out which xenos are breaking rules for you, that is why you volunteered to become a moderator.

    Just because it's easier to point a finger doesn't make it right.

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