Wamakahana Windhealer Should not have been CL banned - Killing Server Fun

[Fewher]

the LRP thing is debatable but it's not the reason for outrage, the reason is because this was ruled at self-antagging and got him job banned

It is self-antag

He took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave himself a new role on the ship which had nothing to do with it's original intent.

This is self-antag.


To expand on this I think (as usual) the player-base is missing the big picture.
Common argument you're hearing here is "everyone liked it, it was harmless fun and created RP". This is correct, but you cannot let the player-base dictate what is and isn't allowed simply based on "its fun and cool".
This creates a slippery slope where suddenly every round everyone wants to run a shop because why not it's cool and its allowed now right? Next thing you know everyone is abandoning their job roles in order to create shops or set up other non RP oriented ideas.

If staff don't instantly crack down on this behavior it spreads, gets worse and you end up with a bigger issue where these things become normalized and start impacting the rounds every-time.
This is a simple case of look at the bigger picture and imagine the impact this would have if allowed or the player wasn't punished... it would set a dangerous precedent leading to larger problems down the line.

I've spent my 2 years on this team to make things fair, but we're not going to make everyone happy.

This statement echos what I said for years while I was Manager, you just cannot make everyone happy but you have to do what you thinks best.
Time and time again the community has shown that they have absolutely no idea what they really want or know whats best for them.
Staff constantly have to make tough decisions that will anger the community momentarily in order to to maintain balance to their best beliefs and ability.

I've said this so many times on CM, but if the playerbase could just for one moment pull their head out of their own asses for a moment and think of the bigger picture we'd be able to avoid a lot of these drama/bullshit issues.

[BIgboyyo]

It is self-antag

He took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave himself a new role on the ship which had nothing to do with it's original intent.

This is self-antag.


To expand on this I think (as usual) the player-base is missing the big picture.
Common argument you're hearing here is "everyone liked it, it was harmless fun and created RP". This is correct, but you cannot let the player-base dictate what is and isn't allowed simply based on "its fun and cool".
This creates a slippery slope where suddenly every round everyone wants to run a shop because why not it's cool and its allowed now right? Next thing you know everyone is abandoning their job roles in order to create shops or set up other non RP oriented ideas.

If staff don't instantly crack down on this behavior it spreads, gets worse and you end up with a bigger issue where these things become normalized and start impacting the rounds every-time.
This is a simple case of look at the bigger picture and imagine the impact this would have if allowed or the player wasn't punished... it would set a dangerous precedent leading to larger problems down the line.



This statement echos what I said for years while I was Manager, you just cannot make everyone happy but you have to do what you thinks best.
Time and time again the community has shown that they have absolutely no idea what they really want or know whats best for them.
Staff constantly have to make tough decisions that will anger the community momentarily in order to to maintain balance to their best beliefs and ability.

I've said this so many times on CM, but if the playerbase could just for one moment pull their head out of their own asses for a moment and think of the bigger picture we'd be able to avoid a lot of these drama/bullshit issues.

I mean, look at it from an average players perspective

>90% of Cls are just "Sign dis CO or I call W-Y on u" and then gone for the rest of the round
>Windhealer wants to make the round special and fun, and so decides to create a shop as an IC excuse to get free liquor and whatever
>Windhealer got COs written permission and stated that only minor crimes were to be allowed
>He doesn't explicitly steal from the ship, asks permission, and mainly takes things from the colony which (unless this was sorokyne) is owned by W-Y
>This is handled ICly when a sky marshal comes and the office is raided.
>Nobody involved felt like Dreven was greifing or being antagonistic,
>Overlord decided to jobban him specifically because he created a "micro-nation" and didn't ask W-Y first
>This just sounds like he only got banned because it was declared a "micro-nation" (similar to cargonia meme) and didn't fax W-Y first (Most faxes are ignored, this is literally said in the wiki page)
>This sounds pretty unfair and just reinforces the idea of "The myth of consensual RP, isn't there an admin you forgot to ask?"

Both sides have good points and IMO boiling it down to "playerbase not seeing the big picture" is just a bad way of looking at it, but if that's the way you see it I won't change your mind.

[Lauren Von Fusegana]

Feweh... you gave me a remote detonated rubber duck when I was a CL... and I planted it in CIC...





Your statement of people not doing their job is irrelevant..

[HoseaPalindrome]

Could you imagine a trickle down effect that ends with more people wanting to do "harmless fun that creates RP"? CL's being able to convert their office into any form of shop or bar or even crazier ideas? Horrifying

Roleplayers should be banned for abandoning their posts, OOC, of course. we can't allow people to get any ideas and not immediately unga into a big pile of xenos.

(Also, can anyone playing on other servers recall converting an office space into a bar with the captain's permission being "self antag"? That shit sounds it'll get you an antag-ban for wasting your antagonist status)

[Dreven]

It is self-antag

He took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave himself a new role on the ship which had nothing to do with it's original intent.

This is self-antag.

That literally isn't what self antag is Fewher, self antagging is me going out of my way to hinder the marine force, which is not something the shop or windgonia ever did. CL's have been running stores for years on this server, their literally a BUSINESS PERSON. How does it not fit for them to sell off items to marines to make some profit on the side? Its crazy that you've changed the definition of self antag to not even involve antagonising

Time and time again the community has shown that they have absolutely no idea what they really want or know whats best for them

Thats a really, really self absorbed statement to make. I'm glad your not a manager anymore when thats how obvious you look down on players. When something adds nothing negative to the server, only creates a voluntary, fun space for RP that everyone involved enjoyed then who are you to say that "players don't know what they like". Your not smarter or better than anyone else. And why would me running a store as CL set up a "slippery slope" where everyone now wants to do that, I did the store for like a dozen rounds and their was no crazy wave of players abandoning their jobs to set up stores, so your slippery slope argument is just wrong, as slippery slope arguments usually are.

I've said this so many times on CM, but if the playerbase could just for one moment pull their head out of their own asses for a moment and think of the bigger picture we'd be able to avoid a lot of these drama/bullshit issues.

Oh yes of course you know better than everyone else Fewher, the players are dumb idiot peasents who know nothing about how or why they enjoy the game!!!

[CABAL]

It is self-antag

He took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave himself a new role on the ship which had nothing to do with it's original intent.

This is self-antag.

I don't see how something that doesn't "harm" anyone in any way is "self-antagging". Care to explain it further?

As far as I'm concerned he doesn't took anything (without premission) that is crucial, or of any importance to the marine win, or any particular player that isn't antag himself (benos). As far as I'm concerned he doesn't harmed, or killed any non-antag (benos) in any way. CL duties are also of no importance to marines.
So... How it is self-antag?

If above is indeed self-antagging, then picking PFC and then being hired by CL as bodyguard with CO premission is also self-antag, because admeme had nothing to do with it and you took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave (indirectly, but trough another player, pretty much the same) himself a new role on the ship which had pretty much nothing to do with it's original intent.

I really don't see it. In a round where each and every role spawns besides CL, marines doesn't lose anything. They are as much likely to win, than with CL. Maybe even more without CL as he is not there to bother CIC to sign some papers after first drop.

I also don't see how (basically only CL and maybe someone from REQ) can't make shop, because its outside of their role. Especially CL that has the interest of WY on his mind. Selling shit from WY owned colony for bigger price and then giving the company cut of the money is in WY interest. Its the fucking company that sells products for Kane's sake. They would use additional cash, so do CL that got this shitty job of being the only pencil-pusher on a vessel that flies in a region with suspected beno and CLF activity and also confirmed UPP presence. The same vessel filled with illiterate conscrpits, borderline psychotic etc. He deserves a little bit extra for what shitty life he has.

My idea would be to expand wiki in examples of what CL (and only CL) can do, so it would be clear that CL can open shop, but OT can't (but can occasionaly take cash for some special (secret) order, outside of his normal routine, like custom remote controlled C4 for CL).

[StephenNelson]

I’ve built a bar at least 10 times as Brian Scott, boozemat and minimoog included, and never once have I been bwoinked for it. Hell, I only ask the captain/CE half the time. Selling guns that were given to me is the only thing I’ve never tried, but I don’t see how this can be interpreted as self antagging.

[Unknownity]

Was it self-antag? No, what Wama did was not hindering the marines in any way possible.
Was it LRP? Now that is questionable. The CLs quarters is entirely off limits to everyone except the CL himself and PMCs. Nobody is allowed inside his room and no cameras are allowed in the area. The only way people are allowed to go inside is if they have a warrant on the CL. You could say the entire place is owned by W-Y (as part of the business deals they made with the USCM). The USCM wouldn't give a shit if the CL was modifying his office as long as he doesn't go over his legal boundaries. Think of the place as a Corporate Embassy of some sorts which it practically is. Therefore all the times Wama made a store,there is nothing wrong with that. Regarding about his micro nation we could talk about it for hours.
A CL having a personal store and creating a micro nation is nothing compared to the past CLs we had who stole nukes,violently fought the entire CIC staff,who resigned from W-Y and started hoarding monkeys in the office (while still having W-Y assets despite no longer being part of the company).
Hell the clinically insane CL hoarding monkeys happened atleast TWICE with the same end result of the monkey pressing the admin spawned self destruct button that blew up the entire office and Liaison's quarters.

I've seen way more CLs playing as if they were on goon with all their crazy antics and yet Wama gets noted over having a simple store of previously colony owned guns and other valuables that pretty much nobody would miss. He also has a note for breaking and entering and thievery to sell the things he stole. Now what? Isn't this why MPs exist? Why was he noted for an IC issue? People break and steal shit all the time and the Corporate Liaison isnt special like a whitelisted role. The only roles that would be definetely OOCly punished for breaking ML would be the CO and Synth. The only other roles that would possibly get punished would be the CE,CMO and CIC Staff. We even get POs,IOs and XOs arrested sometimes and I doubt every single one of them got noted for breaking ML.

Let it be known,you can report CLs if they break ML and they will get a note for it.

[TheIlluminated1]

Self-Antagging is defined as 'performing the actions of, or acting as if you are, an antagonist when your role is not set as such.'

Changing a role to something else or wasn't intended does not instantly mark them as an antag. And it could still be argued that he was representing The Company in a unique way.

I agree that if this had been allowed, the grand scale might start to look bleak, but there is also the fact that Staff consistently get away with performing LRP or downright self-antagonising actions, or allow it to happen so consistently, we get people with a reputation like Bill Carson.

The problem with your line of thinking Feweh is that you're acting as if CM will go on if the playerbase doesn't get what they want. There are countless examples of developers of real games not listening to feedback, or failing to provide something people want to play.

Claiming that people don't know what they want is just plain ludicrous, and honestly reminds me of all the shit bad game companies do. People can know what they want, individually, but unless staff or developers are dedicated to getting organized feedback and information from the playerbase, the same echochamber of bullshit CM has had will sustain until the majority of us get sick of it and leave.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Making a shop isn't self-antagging, self-antagging is when we get CLs who try to stop the nuke from deploying without staff permission, or trying to murder survivors to keep them quiet without staff permission. And I've been suggesting time after time that CL should get a random objective good or bad to complete. I've also suggested time after time we should get a random antag objective for shipside being CLF sleeper agents crew such as destroy power APCs, murder x officer, etc... etc...

In the end it was just going beyond what we felt was acceptable when he tried to make a sovereign nation as a CL.

Everyone always complains we don't define LRP or what is and isn't kosher.
It's literally in the rules when we re-wrote it

Play a reasonably realistic character.

I don't consider a CL going and trying to make a sovereign nation reasonably realistic regardless if the entire server enjoyed it or not. If he just did his shaman mystic gimmick and made a shop, no issues. Oh and I get DMs all the time why we allow his shaman gimmick, in fact I clearly remember someone who claimed they were of native american descent made a player report for the gimmick as he took offense to it.