Wamakahana Windhealer Should not have been CL banned - Killing Server Fun

[Fewher]

Feweh... you gave me a remote detonated rubber duck when I was a CL... and I planted it in CIC...

This simply never happened, at least not with me.
There was no rubber duck explosive device during my time as staff to spawn.

Your statement of people not doing their job is irrelevant..

However, had I given a CL an explosive it would've been for an event and Admin sanctioned making it completely relevant.
Likewise had I started a bar/shop it would've been admin sanctioned with active monitoring to ensure no OOC/IC issues came of it.

Roleplayers should be banned for abandoning their posts, OOC, of course.

This is abandoning their post, they signed up to play as specific role and completely abandoned it to be a shopkeeper. without OOC consent.

Self-Antagging is defined as 'performing the actions of, or acting as if you are, an antagonist when your role is not set as such.'

Was it self-antag? No, what Wama did was not hindering the marines in any way possible.

I don't see how something that doesn't "harm" anyone in any way is "self-antagging". Care to explain it further?

That literally isn't what self antag is Fewher, self antagging is me going out of my way to hinder the marine force, which is not something the shop or windgonia ever did.

Yes this is self-antagging.
This is creating alternative objectives for your role which empowers others to break IC/OOC rules of their roles as well. (ie; Creating a micro nation?, set up a private shop, encouraged players to loot/break rules)
Simply put, he sought out marines/players to break their roles by looting the ship/map for items requesting them to bring them back to him. His position encouraged other players to self-antag, break rules and cause additional problems that wouldn't be prevalent during the round had he not broken his own role. While some may have enjoyed it you have to look at the big picture, he caused an IC distraction that hindered the marines and the marine command which couldve have or had a direct impact on the rounds progression. While this happens frequently with events, the difference is Admin sanctioned and over-watched as compared to a player just deciding to do what they want which leads to my original comment of a slippery slope.

Self-Antag doesn't have to be causing direct harm to others, but rather is any harm both direct or indirect inflicted upon other players by any means of damage or round disruption.

Oh yes of course you know better than everyone else Fewher, the players are dumb idiot peasants who know nothing about how or why they enjoy the game!!!

The player-base seldom thinks of the big picture or impact minor actions can have on the longevity of the game. Often players have a very reactive attitude, rather than active attitude on changes, rules and policies leading them to react harshly to things they personally disagree with. It's not so much me thinking the player-base is lesser, but rather 3+years of me realizing the player-base doesn't know whats best for them. (Active Attitude= Constantly thinking/processing things. Reactive Attitude=Only reacting or thinking about sudden changes)

[BeardedWall]

This statement echos what I said for years while I was Manager, you just cannot make everyone happy but you have to do what you thinks best.
Time and time again the community has shown that they have absolutely no idea what they really want or know whats best for them.
Staff constantly have to make tough decisions that will anger the community momentarily in order to to maintain balance to their best beliefs and ability.

I've said this so many times on CM, but if the playerbase could just for one moment pull their head out of their own asses for a moment and think of the bigger picture we'd be able to avoid a lot of these drama/bullshit issues.

The arrogance of this statement is a bit staggering. I had thought that the vibes I was getting from other staff decisions was my own paranoia. I attributed the goofy decisions on grey areas and lack of policy; but if you are truly confirming its because "staff knows best"... just wow.

The community has been very clear on what we want, on a variety of issues. You are confirming this isnt negligence, but a culture among the staff of "its our game, you are just allowed to play it".

This same dumb attitude is what causes the "drama/bullshit issues", because if the game is YOURS... well you can do whatever you want:

I dont like this player? Ban him on some technicality.

Anyone who complains? Well Daddy knows best.. ban them too.

I am ALLOWED to spawn whatever i want cause.. its my game (Emerald bullshit).

The people who create and maintain whitelists, they are just PLAYERS not OWNERS, fuck them (what you did to the synth council when you pulled the "staff makes final decisions in lore").

Its MY game and I don't like some things.. so I will label it as LRP and ban it. But its my game.. so if I want to spawn a giant talking spacecarp.... well that is just FUNNY and TEMPORARY.

You arent allowed to ruin my fun in MY game, banned for meta/murder. But I spawned 50x xenos after I died to "speed up the round". Ruled okay in staff reports.

Anger/ taunting/ drama isnt allowed guys! Deadchat muted. Oh you didnt like what I spawned in the game or said? Here let me play the salt.mpg a couple times then tell everyone to "get over it".

Its my game so people dont REALLY know what they want. When I change the game entirely (like permanesting) and the community disagrees... well its just because they are players. All they do is PLAY the game... they dont matter.

If staff are committed to this road.. fine, I wish you the best. But you will continue to bleed players, burn out devs, and lose staff over arguments.


And Jesus dude, are you the ex manager because you now work for activision or EA? "You think you want it, but you dont".

[ThesoldierLLJK]

I dont like this player? Ban him on some technicality.

I hate everyone equally, if this were true.
Contrary to popular belief it doesn't matter if you're a well known player or newbie von nooberstein. You break a rule and get caught, you face the music, in fact there are certain players all the time staff complain about and we've said they get normal punishments per escalation.

There's no conspiracy.

Hell I'll be the first to say I permabanned Avalanchee who I actually like from the forums because he was warned before and started making multiple toxic posts about staff, so he got yeeted.

its not personal it's strictly buisness.mpeg here

[Fewher]

The community has been very clear on what we want, on a variety of issues. You are confirming this isnt negligence, but a culture among the staff of "its our game, you are just allowed to play it".

No, I'm confirming that the community doesn't understand the back-end of their requests or the impact of their desires.
I'm saying that generally staff (who play the game) have a stronger understanding whats best for the game and the direction the game needs to go into.

This is largely a unique position as 95% of the player-base will never be on the staff team and as such cannot comprehend this. More-so, most mods/mentors cannot grasps the entirety of dev or balance issues with a lot of suggestions or rule debate topics.

So by no means do I expect anyone to understand my position since you'll most likely never be in it, but I do personally believe that the best people to make decisions for the game are those in lead staff positions due to their over-all knowledge at hand. However, it's not to say that the player-bases opinion and suggestions are pointless, but rather when the player-base is reacting in a reactive manner it's generally emotionally fueled and opinionated desires.

[BeardedWall]

In the end it was just going beyond what we felt was acceptable when he tried to make a sovereign nation as a CL.

I don't consider a CL going and trying to make a sovereign nation reasonably realistic regardless if the entire server enjoyed it or not. If he just did his shaman mystic gimmick and made a shop, no issues. Oh and I get DMs all the time why we allow his shaman gimmick, in fact I clearly remember someone who claimed they were of native american descent made a player report for the gimmick as he took offense to it.

That report was retarded and I actually ate a forum infraction for asking if the guy was serious. Good times.


So to be clear. The line he crossed was because he declared himself a sovereign nation?

Will you clarify on the following:

1. The CL has an office and living space that is entirely his own, including shutters that no one else on the ship can override. He has full control and dictates who can and cannot enter his space, short of violence. Does this not indicate to you that the CL has Sovereignty over this piece of the ship on behalf of WY? Would this not count as an "embassy" of sorts for the WY company. If so, this would allow the CL do operate as separate entity while still onboard the ship.


2. I have seen many many instances of the CL hiring people to work for him and the company. Mostly to do shady shit. They are joined to the CL to do things that are independent from the command structure. Is this not "forming a sovereign nation" in function?

3. He did not enforce his "borders" or resist when police attacked him. And had no aggression toward CIC. He was subjected to the laws of the Almayer. If he made no attempt to act independantly and outside the law... would this not be functioning as a "club" instead of a nation.

I ask, if you take the entire situation, and subtract out his line about "windgonia". Would this be a clear case of setting up a nation? I just don't see it. I do not think he meets the criteria.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

A CL is acting on behalf of The Company who technically in this Lore owns the USCM although the USCM are still a government entity. WY/The Company are not an actual sovereign nation but a corporation. Although the CL has his own office, equipment, etc... he’s still working on behalf of The Company and he’s still supposed to comply with marine law.

If I ran/Or was CEO of a Fortune 500 company and one of my executives in another part of the world sent me a fax declaring himself and his office a nation, I would probably be like WTF.

[BeardedWall]

A CL is acting on behalf of The Company who technically in this Lore owns the USCM although the USCM are still a government entity. WY/The Company are not an actual sovereign nation but a corporation. Although the CL has his own office, equipment, etc... he’s still working on behalf of The Company and he’s still supposed to comply with marine law.

If I ran/Or was CEO of a Fortune 500 company and one of my executives in another part of the world sent me a fax declaring himself and his office a nation, I would probably be like WTF.

Right, and he did comply with marine law. By all accounts he didnt resist arrest, he got permission from the captain before opening the shop. He didn't try to enforce his boundaries. He did not break any rules on stealing, murder, etc.

If you are CEO and your executive says "we are naming the X office, "the Spring branch", but still complied with all your rules; I doubt you would give a shit. He is still part of your organization he just named his office something. If your executive said "We are naming it Dave Town"... I agree you would be like WTF, and tell him to change the name. Given the context that your executive was still following the rules.. you would think it was just a shitty name; not that he is seceding from your company.

I think the same applies here. He gave his "organization" a shitty name. If he had instead called it "The WY store" I do not think it would have been an issue. His actions do not seem to indicate that he formed a private nation.

[Pigeon]

It doesn't matter if he broke the LRP rules in the end, maybe he did maybe he didnt. He got TWICE AND BROKE THE LRP RULE ON CL A THIRD TIME IN A DAY(or might been week or something). Rules got to mean something. Now he could've backed down and tone down his gimmick, he could've ahelped what is acceptable or what isn't, he couldve gone to the forum/discord crusading for change, he could've gone to staff-help and say he needs rule verfication on far he can go with his gimmick, he could've done many other things. But he did not want to communicate, he wanted to do his own gimmick all other people be damned. Now he pays the price.

Also the store is not lrp, WY does more crazier things then that and could be an interesting inbewteen for the liaison and CO without being too crazy or antagy. The really LRP is trying to make his own micronation which is insane and prevented for the Engi and Req from trying and he is no different under that guideline. Want to play micronation? SS13 vanilla the other way.

And with the micronation it might encourage people to be stupid and do stupid things, sure maybe windhealer could keep them under control sometimes, but what if someone else came along and said 'windhealer made a microstate why not me?' and proceeds to make a microstate and he and his cronies cause mayham under the guise they can't be 'charged'. Would have to be nipped in the bud.

[ChainsawMullet]

I'd like to point out how retarded it is that all of this hinges on "b-b-b-b-b-BUT HE CALLED IT A MICRONATION"

bruh it was just an IC excuse for MPs to blanket ignore minor crimes in the shop (which they can do), jesus christ.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

-Snip-

Pretty much this.

And if you come to discord and talk to staff and bring a valid argument why something be or shouldn't be, we will listen. If its something that makes sense, we usually take it into consideration. If it's something that doesn't make sense we will tell you straight up no.