Wamakahana Windhealer Should not have been CL banned - Killing Server Fun

[kooarbiter]

It doesn't matter if he broke the LRP rules in the end, maybe he did maybe he didnt. He got TWICE AND BROKE THE LRP RULE ON CL A THIRD TIME IN A DAY(or might been week or something). Rules got to mean something. Now he could've backed down and tone down his gimmick, he could've ahelped what is acceptable or what isn't, he couldve gone to the forum/discord crusading for change, he could've gone to staff-help and say he needs rule verfication on far he can go with his gimmick, he could've done many other things. But he did not want to communicate, he wanted to do his own gimmick all other people be damned. Now he pays the price.

Also the store is not lrp, WY does more crazier things then that and could be an interesting inbewteen for the liaison and CO without being too crazy or antagy. The really LRP is trying to make his own micronation which is insane and prevented for the Engi and Req from trying and he is no different under that guideline. Want to play micronation? SS13 vanilla the other way.

And with the micronation it might encourage people to be stupid and do stupid things, sure maybe windhealer could keep them under control sometimes, but what if someone else came along and said 'windhealer made a microstate why not me?' and proceeds to make a microstate and he and his cronies cause mayham under the guise they can't be 'charged'. Would have to be nipped in the bud.

Hear me out on this: if people do this gimmick in the future but go ham on self antagging, we ban them. That is assuming the slippery slope argument is even correct in the first place

[HoseaPalindrome]

Premature sorry for autistic text wall

The player-base seldom thinks of the big picture or impact minor actions can have on the longevity of the game. Often players have a very reactive attitude, rather than active attitude on changes, rules and policies leading them to react harshly to things they personally disagree with. It's not so much me thinking the player-base is lesser, but rather 3+years of me realizing the player-base doesn't know whats best for them. (Active Attitude= Constantly thinking/processing things. Reactive Attitude=Only reacting or thinking about sudden changes)...

...While this happens frequently with events, the difference is Admin sanctioned and over-watched as compared to a player just deciding to do what they want which leads to my original comment of a slippery slope.

No, Dreven's absolutely right, you should take a good look at what you write one of these days and take some time to reflect because really all you're really doing is drawing a line between staff and the players and calling one basically retarded. I mean i'm not trying to be mean but you really do come off like...kinda douchy, y'know. Especially when you for some reason felt the need to explain the difference between reactive and active thinking like none of us retards had access to a dictionary growing up.

Your idea of self antagging is also bizarre and uhh...I guess one of those postions smoothbrains like us will never understand. I mean if you only bothered to read the peasants you respond to you'd already know that Wamakmahama wasn't being an IC distraction and had little to no impact to the round, evidenced by multiple accounts by now...also you are aware that a slippery slope is a falacy, right? But at least we can agree on something.

Anyways your idea of self antagging is also so stretched you could basically apply it to anything that's not "rush xeno shoot firearm", Oh did you decide to get drunk on ice colony as a marine? FUCK YOU THAT'S CREATING AN ALTERNATIVE OBJECTIVE FOR YOUR ROLE WHICH EMPOWERS OTHERS TO ALSO DO THE SAME THING , IC DISTRACTION, NEXT THING YOU KNOW EVERYONE'S GONNA BE GETTING DRUNK. Oh are the cargo technicians slacking off and playing UNO? FUCK YOU THAT'S NOT WHAT WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR AS YOUR OOC ROLE, IMMEDIATE JOBBAN FOR HINDERING MARINES, IC DISTRACTION, NEXT THEY'RE GONNA EMPOWER THE CO AND XO TO PLAY UNO BY ENCOURAGING THEM TO PLAY WITH THEM. CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER. MASS HYSTERIA! Hell, even those are bad examples as the CL was arguably being GOOD at his job in this case.

God, if only I possesed the Staff's ever vigilant A C T I V E brain, I could maybe parse through your reply and catch a glimpse of knowledge but alas, i'm just so dang emotionally fueled and opiniated, shucks.

snip

I find the notion of Dreven being portrayed as a person that went "Other people be damned, I want to do my gimmick" a little strange because i'm pretty sure he did what he did specifically to interact and roleplay with other people. That's kinda why a lot of people find issue with this, what he did encouraged roleplaying, not grief. The bizarre need to punish him for this is sad, and a little infuriating.

People have already went into length with why they think a CL making a micronation isn't that far out, and why you shouldn't Ahelp to roleplay, and the hypocrisy. The only thing I could possibly add is that Engi and Req have mechanical purposes and a CL is purely RP, so imo it is kind of a different bag when they seperate and I see why that would be self antagging (but even then, y'know as long as they provide the station with power/things, it's barely different from Unionizing)

As for the third thing you might as well say it might encourage people to do erp aswell, I mean we don't know. That's how "what if's" work. And why should Dreven be punished for hypothetical "what if" scenarios?

I think anyone should be able to do things with the captains permission, making a sovreign nation included. Oh but you say, what if they then decide to break server rules after that because they're drunk on power? Well...I dunno, what if allowing marines to wear the peace and love flair causes them to roleplay being pacifist and then no one bothers to deploy and that results in a xeno minor, you see now why we need to ban the peace and love flair in lieu of these superior arguments. But I ask you this;

What if we jobban the people that actually grief and not the people that *MIGHT* encourage some hypothetical grief in their pursuit of interacting with people on a 2003 text based lag simulator with heavily encouraged roleplaying mechanics.

[CABAL]

Yes this is self-antagging.
This is creating alternative objectives for your role which empowers others to break IC/OOC rules of their roles as well. (ie; Creating a micro nation?, set up a private shop, encouraged players to loot/break rules)
Simply put, he sought out marines/players to break their roles by looting the ship/map for items requesting them to bring them back to him. His position encouraged other players to self-antag, break rules and cause additional problems that wouldn't be prevalent during the round had he not broken his own role. While some may have enjoyed it you have to look at the big picture, he caused an IC distraction that hindered the marines and the marine command which couldve have or had a direct impact on the rounds progression. While this happens frequently with events, the difference is Admin sanctioned and over-watched as compared to a player just deciding to do what they want which leads to my original comment of a slippery slope.

Self-Antag doesn't have to be causing direct harm to others, but rather is any harm both direct or indirect inflicted upon other players by any means of damage or round disruption.

Sorry, but I find this incredebly silly and a gateway to even more silly "Self-Antag" bans. Like my marine for example. Cabal won't take those fancy drugs from Research, or from CL, even if they would give godmode, even if they would be forced down his throat. Thats my RP, I conciously refuse some benefit that would help marines win by not taking drugs. That has to mean I'm "Self-Antagging", because I create alternative objective for my role which somehow could empower others to RP, as PFC is supposed to do everything to shoot benos and win. Cabal would gladly volunteer to become Cyborg if given the chance, but thats "Self-Antagging" as cybernetic limbs are potentialy inferior to fleshy limbs.
Cabal would also refuse to shoot unarmed colonists, even if they were antags themselfs. Cabal would refuse to shoot pred that spared his life during the hunt, even if then said pred would start to fight with other marine on his own eyes. Cabal would start to argue and even fight if someone would mock his beliefs and/or Kane, even if superior. Cabal is apparently bigass self-antag grieffer that somehow avoids all of the bans and even notes.

Since when IC non-LRP "distractions" are bannable? I remember correctly that when I started playing, there was admeme saying that "We condone RP that indirectly harms marines, but not xenos". It was definitely Apop days, not sure if yours too, at the time of 25-75 beno winrate bias. What happened to that?

I really find this stupid. Basically any and all RP can IC indirectly hinder the marines and command. Some guy as PFC goes to XO/CO asking for promotion? What a fucking self-antag, how dare he takes that precious minute on good RP with Command? Ban he, ban he! Chit-chat with doctor in surgery, thus slowing the whole operation 30 seconds? JOBBAN FROM PFC!

[Goopy]

In all honesty, the last few posts from admins (or ex-admins) reads like power-tripping dictators.

What did the man deduct from the round?
Are we flat out pretending that he didn't provide to the round?
Why should players have to ask admins to have the ability to roleplay?
Why should players need express permission to do something unique?
Why should players need express permission to do something other than horde-ayyy's?
Why do admins apply for admin if they don't have the best interest of players entertainment in their hearts?
Why do players need permission to play a character?
I see the argument of, well it's not realistic for this character to do x, but last I checked, marines are people, not clone-troopers out of star wars, people have different personalities, no?

It's honestly sad and pathetic to see admins try to shoot down this, and keep it up as valid, when no harm was done, simply because admins- people who volunteer to help players have fun, don't find it fun.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

when no harm was done, simply because admins- people who volunteer to help players have fun, don't find it fun.

There was a player who complained to me about his LRP ban that immediately demanded we ban dreven for his gimmick and snow7 for his Japanese gimmick as well trying to make a complaint I should remove his ban because we allow the gimmicks.

There are people who don’t contribute on the forums who play the game who would probably complain, or they do it in private behind closed doors in DMs

So there are players who supposedly can’t stand the gimmick but won’t speak up here

[Goopy]

There was a player who complained to me about his LRP ban that immediately demanded we ban dreven for his gimmick and snow7 for his Japanese gimmick as well trying to make a complaint I should remove his ban because we allow the gimmicks.

There are people who don’t contribute on the forums who play the game who would probably complain, or they do it in private behind closed doors in DMs

So there are players who supposedly can’t stand the gimmick but won’t speak up here

Honestly, I'm sus when it comes to "players reported it" since it seems like an easy shield admins can hide behind, since we as players can't really fact check it, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but hey, props to you for trying to participate in this discussion, unlike the admin who started it who's seemingly hiding. Can we get a response to the other questions I asked?

Is every report given valid? Where was that player harmed? Was he forced to interact with this one situation on a server with battles playing out down below, roleplay between on-station staff, was he forced into it? If he didn't like it, he could have not attended it. Just because he didn't like it, doesn't mean it was harmful, no? The fact that it seems so easy to just not participate in this one small thing happening on a big map seems like the player was reporting out of spite for this guy.

And again, how many of the reports that you get are valid, and aren't players over-reacting?

[TheIlluminated1]

Hell, I hated the gimmick, I thought it was stupid and LRP, that's what i've always thought of Windhealer. But I'd much rather have him around because in all of his unfunny tribe-talk, there's folks who get inspired to do their own thing. The standard of RP here is too tight, and I'd rather have more Carsons, Windhealers and Feiffers than another boring jarhead with no personality, and no humanity.

[Jyggalag]

There was a player who complained to me about his LRP ban that immediately demanded we ban dreven for his gimmick and snow7 for his Japanese gimmick as well trying to make a complaint I should remove his ban because we allow the gimmicks.

There are people who don’t contribute on the forums who play the game who would probably complain, or they do it in private behind closed doors in DMs

So there are players who supposedly can’t stand the gimmick but won’t speak up here

Wild question. Have you ever considered anonymously polling the community so you can non-anecdotally verify what the community actually wants? This seems like the best way to do this without causing massive drama or relying on one side or the other saying "just believe me".

[ThesoldierLLJK]

And again, how many of the reports that you get are valid, and aren't players over-reacting?

99.9% of reports we get are basically this

Mod: hello you broke this rule, I am going to ban you/warn you
Player: I DONT AGREE WITH THIS
*files staff report*

Politically correct Manager: Well you did break the rule, so the mod didn't do anything wrong, but ill give you some reassuring touchy feely stuff here to make you feel better

Me: You broke a rule, you got banned, deal with it

Or they go

Politically correct manager: Well you are correct you didn't really a break a rule. Your ban note is removed, I will talk to the staff member and rest assured THEY WILL BE REPRIMANDED

Me: Yeah you didn't break a rule, it's been removed. But the mod made a decision without ill intent and thought they were doing the right thing. No further action needed.

[antrixx]

It is self-antag

He took a position(job), changed it's role specifically to be something else and gave himself a new role on the ship which had nothing to do with it's original intent.

This is self-antag.


To expand on this I think (as usual) the player-base is missing the big picture.
Common argument you're hearing here is "everyone liked it, it was harmless fun and created RP". This is correct, but you cannot let the player-base dictate what is and isn't allowed simply based on "its fun and cool".
This creates a slippery slope where suddenly every round everyone wants to run a shop because why not it's cool and its allowed now right? Next thing you know everyone is abandoning their job roles in order to create shops or set up other non RP oriented ideas.

If staff don't instantly crack down on this behavior it spreads, gets worse and you end up with a bigger issue where these things become normalized and start impacting the rounds every-time.
This is a simple case of look at the bigger picture and imagine the impact this would have if allowed or the player wasn't punished... it would set a dangerous precedent leading to larger problems down the line.



This statement echos what I said for years while I was Manager, you just cannot make everyone happy but you have to do what you thinks best.
Time and time again the community has shown that they have absolutely no idea what they really want or know whats best for them.
Staff constantly have to make tough decisions that will anger the community momentarily in order to to maintain balance to their best beliefs and ability.

I've said this so many times on CM, but if the playerbase could just for one moment pull their head out of their own asses for a moment and think of the bigger picture we'd be able to avoid a lot of these drama/bullshit issues.

This is so wrong it isnt even funny. This isnt about making everyone happy based off of what the server finds amusing in a single moment. This is the core issue arriving from a ruleset thats openly left to "use your discretion on rp". So no shit we end up here with the player base and some of the staff wondering what the fuck is even going on and what he did wrong. We have no common understanding. If you dont have a common understanding then you cannot open a dialogue and make any progression. This isnt a well defined thing, if it was then all of the staff and mods would in theory be on the same page about this. That is not the case. Youre free to your opinion about whether or not it was lrp, but you are in the minority here of those who believe it to be. However using him as an example of a slippery slope is moving the goal posts. This isnt a discussion about a pvt making himself king of the planet and opening a sweatshop with xeno workers. Its a role that is left to the players discretion to figure out how to serve WY's underhanded goals. Its the truest make your own rp in the game we have right now.

I keep hearing that said, we cant make everyone happy. Which im gonna be honest guys I really just dont get. Recently a dev made that pardon mechanic so captains couldnt pardon over radio. Did they ask the whitelist council if they wanted that? Did they talk to the player base to figure out if that was a change that anyone even remotely wanted? This isnt an issue of we cant make everyone happy. Its a few people made some choices for everyone and people were mad no matter what they did so it must just be that everyone wants different stuff. Like, no shit people get mad when you dont talk to them and change stuff.

We have a forum, we have an option to solidify rules to create a common understanding, we have the capability to vote. WE can as a community discuss changes, upsides and downsides and potential issues. WE can together work towards the wants of the collective community. I PERSONALLY cannot do this, the community needs the host and upper management to take charge here and help fix this. Create community liasons to talk between staff, devs, and player base. Utilize voting both in server and on the forum to discuss what could be better and what is bad and needs rework or removal. We cant do this though, we need the people in power to make an effort to fix the community rather then apply a bandaid and say its not possible to do better.