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Thread: Marine Law, IC or OOC?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snooper44 View Post
    It isn't that hard to not destroy windows, punch other marines, act like a general asshole, disrespect your superiors, or cause havoc. Show up to briefing, get on the dropship, and deploy. If you get arrested it's because you did something wrong. If you think the MP is abusing their power AHELP and any mod can easily search logs to see if the arrest is valid.
    Is that the party line or what? At this point it should be fairly clear that just simply looking at your peers and telling them to grow up isnt actually an effective thing to do. I am an adult and I would like to actually discuss this and attempt to come up with solutions to alleviate the problem we have here. Once again this is not the opinion of just a few "trouble makers". In older or more recent threads we have other whitelist captains, mods, and admins who consider the mp role to be a major issue. If it is the intention of the host to keep the role and rp standards then we as a community have to accept that, but I would like to be constructive in finding ways to reduce these bad interactions and required staff intervention. Simply admonishing people will not cause this effect. A lot of people here respect your opinion and if you have ideas on how to solve this then I would like to hear them.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    I agree that certain things should potentially have a bit more of a rework to stop the same issues from happening every single round, in particular the squad req windows are the cause of like 70% of breaks yet almost no one who breaks the windows is actually willing to face consequences for breaking them. I feel this in particular could be reworked, because some MP's won't even enforce a single window break (minor under ML) because it turns into "MP arrested our spec/someone with name recognition, riot even though the CO has come down to deal with it"

    As far as CIC and dress code though, they're officers and leaders and supposed to lead by example. If we're staying in MRP, they would have to abide by SOP as much as anyone else, but changing it to CMP approval was required for officers only could be a thing I'd be down for
    Im perfectly fine with higher rp standards for ship side roles. I have always supported the idea that the higher the rank, the higher rp standards should be. That being said at current the benefit of attempting to enforce minor rp infractions by cic staff tends to have the effect of causing more harm then the original problem. Its incredibly damaging to the round to have someone with the rank of SL loitering CiC waiting to legally remove a CO for role infractions. There is no single player that I have not seen break either marine law or server rules while playing here. Now im not saying major rule breaks but even the players that are known to abide well by rules have certainly walked grey areas a few times. Last time we did this some mod talked about how a ct was given a command headset and later got arrested for it. It wasnt low rp and he asked for it to more succesfully do his job. It left the mod wondering why someone would attempt an arrest over something so ridiculous. Sometimes it seems like perfectly following marine law as an mp puts you in direct violation of the server rule 3. Dont be a dick. Dont ruin someones round over something really small that could be considered hrp stuff.

  3. #43
    Admin solidfury7's Avatar
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    I've seen so many different variations to marine law over the years I have been here. From total "every crime must be acted upon" to the Corrupt MPs allowed era.

    I have personally found that the majority of the "derailing" rounds are usually caused by roundstart shannigans. These are times were an individual is in the process of being detained and many individuals step in. Often many of these people are even unaware of the reason the individual was being arrested.

    I have personally pushed for an IC is IC policy rather than OOC restrictions over the years, as I personally think greater IC freedom greats more diverse and interesting rounds for all involved.

    However, like many things in CM, is for people to misuse the "luxury" of this IC is IC to turn round starts in to completely derailed messes. While it can be fun, if such things happen too often, it causes issues for staff and it is unfair on the xenomorphs who are quite literally having their rounds cut short due to this behaviour (or at least making it an unfun steamroll)

    I think looking at the Military Police and Marine law is a mistake, these roles are present Because Enlisted Marines don't really have RP standards, (SLs kinda do technically but it's not enforced). I'm all for a bit of silly goofing around, however when you got non PFCs C4ing the brig because their buddy got detained for calling the CO a faggot, you realise that the MPs are simply the IC solution for something which would be otherwise restricted OOCly.

    It's a complicated issue which I think will resolve eventually, either RP standards for certain ranks will be elevated a little or we will add more ooc restrictions.
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  4. #44
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    "I have personally found that the majority of the "derailing" rounds are usually caused by roundstart shannigans. These are times were an individual is in the process of being detained and many individuals step in. Often many of these people are even unaware of the reason the individual was being arrested."

    Solid I think this is almost the entire issue. It really comes down to a 10 minute window where either the round gets ruined or goes smoothly. My take is that if a severe punishment already exists that increasing it usually wont solve the issue. You are one of the most robust CMPs on the server and are very effective at arresting large amounts of players, but even with your success in enforcing rules it doesnt seem to deter or alter the overall meta(always trying to interfere). What I expect follows here is increasingly tight rule enforcement and a large amount of bans. Im trying to barter here and ask that rather then ban a large portion of the player base for actions in a tiny window of the game, that we look for other ways to solve the problem. Rather then individually punish maximally just simply remove some of the tools or capabilities that allow marines to cause so much disruption. If brief stand was blocked off no one could climb on it, unbreakable glass, no smoke grenades, chairs that cannot be matted out. Those few fixes would reduce so many of the reasons mps have to arrest players. As for the mp rework, I just want to see you guys get a capability to actually enforce serious crimes(give the role real meaning), in a way that wont effect the marine force. I think actual antag roles might be part of a solution here(maybe manned by sea listed players so they can do it without rule breaks).

  5. #45
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    Marine law should always be IC. With that being said though, the conduct of the player base needs to be in line with the vision and spirit of the role their playing and the faction they're apart of. Your average Marine would not risk his career and liberties to tackle and disarm an MP because his squad mate stole something or told a commissioned officer off. But because of the volatile nature of your average pew pew spessmen shooter we can't rely on the player to adhere to any of this. Thus, we are stuck with some need for OOC enforcement.

  6. #46
    Whitelisted Captain 50RemAndCounting's Avatar
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    Ideally marine law would be a full IC issue and sec would be operating on the same principles it does in every other ss13 server. But that's never gonna happen because it's simply not feasible by design. The design however, does indeed encourage MP players to heavily inconvenience marines for the slightest steps out of the line since MPs usually don't have anything else to do in a round - or are uncapable or unwilling of doing so.
    Sheeesh this boy LRP as hell!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigeon View Post
    Becuase we are a tdm server trying to pretend some stupid briefing and wait in line while mouth breather McGee throws you three live hefa nades is HRP.

    Kill the last crappy remnants of RP; mo more MP, no briefing, req for all, we all just drop at 15 and get some sweet kills. Achieve what we all really want in our hearts. You know it to be true let go of the silly RP
    this is why the founding fathers enforced a 70% xeno winrate, because when marines start to win it gets into their head and they throw everything else out the window

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobBrown4PM View Post
    Marine law should always be IC. With that being said though, the conduct of the player base needs to be in line with the vision and spirit of the role their playing and the faction they're apart of. Your average Marine would not risk his career and liberties to tackle and disarm an MP because his squad mate stole something or told a commissioned officer off. But because of the volatile nature of your average pew pew spessmen shooter we can't rely on the player to adhere to any of this. Thus, we are stuck with some need for OOC enforcement.
    IMO where you run into problems with this is with MPs who toe the letter of ML rather than the spirit. Here's an example recent enough for my memory to be fairly reliable, just off the top of my head:

    In a round a day or two ago after a nasty extract the survivors returned to the Almayer with a bunch of casualties. What we found was one MP confronting another over an arrest the latter had made. This genius had arrested what was apparently the only doctor on duty while they were performing a surgery on a marine with lung damage because the doctor didn't stop to tell the MP why they were focusing on the surgery rather than the MP's much more pressing matter of the doctor having retiled a small part of the medbay entryway with wood. The backdrop to this is the panicked communication chatter of FOB being overrun, the DS taking off with xenos and half-dead marines hanging out the doorway, and related announcements from CIC.

    An MP arrests a doctor in the middle of surgery, assuming that they know better than the doctor whether the medical issue is critical ("it was only a broken arm!"), over what MIGHT have barely qualified as a minor Damage to Government Property (vis-a-vis unauthorized modifications) and brigs them scant minutes before they're going to be desperately needed to save lives, and they aren't willing to back down until they've got another MP and six or seven Delta squaddies staring them down and berating them for their fucked up priorities.

    That's the crux of the issue. We have maybe three MP players who understand context and operating under the spirit of the law and just about every single other one is a jackbooted literalist who looks for any excuse to brig people (usually with the whole MP team busy arresting an engineer for disassembling squad req line barriers while idiots brawl in briefing and throw smoke grenades at officers). With all due respect why should PVT Herpaderp give a shit about following the spirit of the law and maintaining a realistic roleplay standard when the people who are supposed to help reinforce them IC don't? I'm not about to say that you don't get the occasional idiot trying to shock brig doors or stab someone for pushing in line, but that's far and away the exception. (And most of the minor crimes people get brigged for are more DGP arrests that are really just indicative of prep not flowing well, usually because of lack of access to vendors/countertops, &c. -- easily half of what MPs go after people for would disappear if squad prep uniform vendors included a separate point pool for and more complete list of attachments and weapon kits.)

    I'm certainly not saying it's an issue peculiar to CM. What is relatively unique to CM is the lack of IC recourse for players, given the military context IC and OOC protections for MPs. As I've said elsewhere, in most servers bad sec players are kept in line and generally phased out of the role or into less awful behavior by the knowledge that any sufficiently robust player who gets hacked off at them could kill them relatively trivially with no OOC consequences. When you give security free reign and OOC protection from retribution, you really just protect bad sec players from the consequences of their own actions. There are a couple MPs that I have never once seen run afoul of marines, and coincidentally they happen to be the same ones that don't go out of their way to ruin rounds for people.

    Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that marines should be able to get away with gunning down MPs who arrest someone for breaking a window. I'm just saying that MPs as they're currently implemented appear to cause more pre-deployment chaos than they solve, and I'm not really sure how they could be changed to resolve that without driving away everyone who plays the role. Honestly it's probably not something that can be dealt with short of a holistic overhaul of RP standards. Part of the problem is definitely that between MPs not counting time detained but not brigged as time served and the length of punishment times, getting brigged pretty much assures that that marine will miss the initial drop. When this happens to a vital role like a spec, the squad's only medic, an engineer when there are only three or four playing, or a group of marines, everyone involved on the marine end knows that this is going to hurt their combat efficacy. That's naturally a touchpoint for frustration, especially when there's little justification for it. A lot of things that marines get brigged over and miss drop for would realistically result in something like revoked leave passes, docked pay, or a period of shit duty after the drop.
    Last edited by Flying Dice; 07-08-2020 at 08:47 AM.

  9. #49
    Senior Admin & Whitelist Overseer Fortelian's Avatar
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    If you wanna play a game where you go and shoot things, I can guarantee CM isn't the only one. If you wanna RP and shoot things, then I can tell you that CM ain't the only one, but I'd rather keep it that way, than play COD with xenos. (But COD with xenos would actually be dope)
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimo View Post
    this is why the founding fathers enforced a 70% xeno winrate, because when marines start to win it gets into their head and they throw everything else out the window
    A-fucking-men.

    Ever since end round statistics and the changes towards a more PvP focused gameplay people have started to get this silly idea that both teams should always be on equal footing despite one team having 100+ players and the other 30 at most and that anything that stands between the way of them and clicking on the sprite of a xeno with their 5 attachie shotgun is bad and must be done away with.

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