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Thread: Staff Report - Axynious

  1. #1
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    Staff Report - Axynious

    Staff Report
    Your BYOND Key
    Killer of Turks
    Date of Incident
    July 2, 2020
    Your Character Name?
    Duncan Halleck
    Their BYOND Key
    Axynious
    Approximate time and date of the incident
    Around 5:25PM (Central US)
    Which Staff Protocols (//showthrea...-and-Protocols) were broken
    not sure
    Description of the incident
    At the start of the round and before briefing, someone named Marsha (I think) shot and critically injured another marine named Hazel Duncan. From my standpoint, given that someone else got hit by buckshot pellets as well, they were an immediate threat to the surrounding marines and myself. This person was walking towards Hazel with their shotgun wielded and ready to shoot so I took it onto my own hands to PB them and stop it right there. Afterwards they were both healed and dropped.

    I was later PM'd by Axynious about this and after a conversation explaining the incident I was noted for improper escalation and banned for three hours. I only think I was misunderstood and the situation wasn't looked at correctly because:

    a) It was a shootout in the middle of the BRIEFING ROOM, with many people inside it.
    b) They had no intention to stop shooting at Hazel as they tried to flee.
    c) They were quickly revived so there weren't any heavy consequences to this aggression. It only defused the situation if anything.

    Additionally, marine law reads:

    "Self-Defense and the Defense of Others:

    Criminal charges are not to be applied to those who use force on others when defending themselves from illegal use of force, so long as they defend themselves with proportional force. This right extends to the defense of others, should there be a reason to believe they are in lethal danger. This provision does not apply to lawful killings such as executions.

    -Proportional Force
    *Punching against being punched.
    *Melee weapons against melee weapons.
    *Guns against guns.
    The person defending should only return with lethal force until the other person is unable to attack the defendant.
    The defendant should notify MP’s or his command about the use of self-defense.
    The person being attacked should also look to get away from the other attacker if possible, and alert the MP’s."

    While I indeed did not announce that I had applied lethal force (which is an IC issue) I acted in defense of a critically injured marine who was being chased by another who had just shot them with buckshot. I don't think it's fitting for me to receive either a ban or a note for this.
    Evidence
    Logs
    How you would punish the accused
    No punishment needed, it was only a misunderstanding and I couldn't explain myself completely due to being distracted by combat ingame before I got the ban.

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    I'd edit the post to make it clear but I don't have the perms: I'm appealing the note that was applied =]

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    Senior Member Axyinious's Avatar
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    Hello, Kot. I am the staff member that you are reporting. I will explain this incident from my point of view. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Roundstart, it came to my attention that some FF logs popped up in Briefing, I immediately jumped there to investigate what was happening as other staff members were either playing or handling another issue.

    Afterwards, we received an ahelp from Marsha, claiming that they were killed by one marine after properly escalating in Briefing. I investigated this by asking them if they knew who was the marine that PBed them, the answer was quite unclear so I went to check the logs.

    Hazel and Marsha both propely escalated properly from fists > knives > weapon after a disagreement in Briefing. Marsha told me that the fight has started when they rested on the bed that was constructed in Briefing. Hazel happened to be on this same bed and was annoyed by it.
    After checking the logs, I went on getting another staff member's opinion about the incident as it was a tough situation that required a lot of context put into it. Medizan helped me decide what to do here.
    So I jumped to you and began an investigation to get the context of the issue. I talked with you and both Marsha and Hazel during this.


    The reason why I believe that PBing Marsha was not the solution is because:

    Once the first shooting occured (Initiated by Marsha, hit Hazel), there were immediate calls for MPs and information about an active shooter. I checked the surroundings of the Briefing and there were a lot of marines around that were resting on beds constructed in Briefing or buckled in to chairs. This means that the incident was more centered on Marsha and Hazel that were standing up instead of a mess of marines around, which would cause a lot of FF, but that was not the occasion as there were no FF logs afterwards. This came me to believe that your actions were unneeded as MPs were already notified of the incident and so was Command. You could also ahelp the shooting and we could look into it instead of PBing Marsha.

    From Marine Law view, you had a reason to defend Hazel by attacking Marsha with proportional force. However from my point of view, it became an OOC issue the moment it was ahelped and there was no need to take down Hazel, as MPs already knew of the incident. I was also aware of the issue so there was no need to take matters in to your own hands. Though I do not blame you for the last one as ingame players do not know that we are on it, however it could have been easily resolved with an AHELP.

    Thing is that both Hazel and Marsha were properly escalating the incident and did not have the intent (From my view) to involve other players in it. So I believe that your involvement was totally unnecesary as you could have ahelped it or called for MPs, which was already done by some marines.



    TL;DR: From my understanding, you had a 90% reason to involve yourself in the incident in regards to Marine Law. However, I believe that from an OOC view, it was not needed. I believe that some of what you said in the report adds in more context to the incident and lights me more up on the issue. This might sound odd, but I thank you for this as I have just got more experience and feedback with my moderating as issues like these tend to be very hard to resolve and most always end in a staff report. Regardless of the final verdict of this report, I would like to apologize if my decision was a bit excessive, but I would like to say that everything that I have decided on was based on my interpretation of the issue at hand and that the lack of information of the situation that you were in might have driven me to this. Even my unexperience was a factor. If I have given wrong information, the logs will correct me.
    I play as Viktor 'Beer' Kleiner, Matthaus and as Var'dqi Bo'ytill




    LT COL. VIKTOR KLEINER, USS LOWË'S COMMANDING OFFICER

    PROVISIONAL COMMAND OVER THE USS ALMAYER


    Ex-CO Councillor. If you have any questions regarding the whitelist, feel free to DM me.
    Discord is Axyinious#3635

  4. #4
    Ancient Member Hunk1's Avatar
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    Just a FYI: If you're not directly afftected by the shootout (E.G. you got shot first) you shouldn't be playing the vigilante and shooting another marine.

    TL;DR: Don't answer grief with grief, it makes it harder to investigate and punish.
    and i returned, and left. and returned again 19/06/2022, this is my life now.


    Former Moderator Trainer. If you have any questions regarding Moderation Duties, feel free to DM me: Hunk1#9842

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axyinious View Post
    response
    I understand how it may have looked from all perspectives, but I believe the ahelp itself and what followed was uncalled for.

    Firstly, let's be real. If you're shooting the shit in briefing and injure someone, you shouldn't be impressed that you may get gunned down. You are correct in that the situation was properly escalated, but that doesn't really alter the fact that this person was trying to kill a marine in a room full of armed marines. I don't remember Hazel shooting back, we'll have to wait for the logs to confirm it. My reaction was a response to the aggressor chasing the victim down while they were in crit.

    Marines are sound of mind. Does buckshotting a fellow marine after they slashed you sound like something a sane person would do? I'd say this is LRP behavior, as well as roundstart shenanigans, as it happened before first drop. This person was clearly looking for a reason to kill someone, and I think their ahelp and the investigation should've led to a warning for these actions or a note for them. Knowing that this person was acting completely unhinged and out of character, I decided to stop it right there to avoid more damage. Afterwards I helped Duncan to a medic for them to get treated.

    I'll wait for the logs to make any further comments so as to avoid any inaccuracies!

    And to respond to Hunk1, do we just ignore marine law and even common sense now? I have the tool to stop a soon-to-be murderer in a military ship, in defense of one of my comrades. Why shouldn't I use it if I haven't been made aware that the moderators were looking into it already?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Axyinious's Avatar
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    do we just ignore marine law and even common sense now? I have the tool to stop a soon-to-be murderer in a military ship, in defense of one of my comrades. Why shouldn't I use it if I haven't been made aware that the moderators were looking into it already?
    Because you will just make it harder for staff to investigate the issue by generating more attack logs. Jumping in and PBing said marine if you weren't directly involved wasn't the solution as you were not involved in the shootout. In this occasion, only Hazel and Marsha were. You could have ahelped it instead of taking these matters in to your own hands. I have judged that while investigating the issue and referred to a Rule 4 clause that states you can get in trouble if you shoot a griefer. I believe that your interference was totally uncalled for because you always have an adminhelp button in your OOC tab.
    For future reference, don't involve yourself in these conflicts. Ahelp.
    I play as Viktor 'Beer' Kleiner, Matthaus and as Var'dqi Bo'ytill




    LT COL. VIKTOR KLEINER, USS LOWË'S COMMANDING OFFICER

    PROVISIONAL COMMAND OVER THE USS ALMAYER


    Ex-CO Councillor. If you have any questions regarding the whitelist, feel free to DM me.
    Discord is Axyinious#3635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axyinious View Post
    Because you will just make it harder for staff to investigate the issue by generating more attack logs. Jumping in and PBing said marine if you weren't directly involved wasn't the solution as you were not involved in the shootout. In this occasion, only Hazel and Marsha were. You could have ahelped it instead of taking these matters in to your own hands.
    Sure, in the future I'll play an Oblivion NPC and just stand there while two marines shoot the shit out of eachother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axyinious View Post
    I have judged that while investigating the issue and referred to a Rule 4 clause that states you can get in trouble if you shoot a griefer. I believe that your interference was totally uncalled for because you always have an adminhelp button in your OOC tab.
    For future reference, don't involve yourself in these conflicts. Ahelp.
    I, on the contrary, believe the note you gave me was totally uncalled for, not my interference. I only want it removed because I did not have any ill intentions and it did not have any lasting consequences in the round, so I don't think I deserved this. Maybe a new ruling should be made that no escalation to lethal weapons should occur while on the Almayer except after hijack, since it's LRP and marines are not insane, as discussed publicly before (Thesoldier made interfering in an arrest against the game rules because marines are sound of mind). You would not stab or shoot your comrade on the ship over lying on a bed you made.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Axyinious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kot View Post
    Sure, in the future I'll play an Oblivion NPC and just stand there while two marines shoot the shit out of eachother.
    By telling you that you shouldn't involve yourself in these issues, I am telling you that you should refrain from immediately jumping to take lethal weapon action in to an incident and instead ahelp it so me and other staff members can investigate it and decide the outcome. I am not telling you that you should be a NPC and ignore two marines shooting eachother as it can be a serious rulebreak that in 90% of the cases will require staff intervention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kot View Post
    believe the note you gave me was totally uncalled for, not my interference. I only want it removed because I did not have any ill intentions and it did not have any lasting consequences in the round
    It was quite difficult to determine if you had good intent too by checking your history and the lack of information from your PMs, I don't blame you for it as you were planetside and in combat. I personally have no problem with your note being removed after this. Just remember to be more careful and ahelp if in doubt. Don't combat grief with grief. I would consider this a consequence just because it caused annoyance to a player that properly escalated an incident that Hazel started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kot View Post
    Maybe a new ruling should be made that no escalation to lethal weapons should occur while on the Almayer except after hijack, since it's LRP and marines are not insane, as discussed publicly before (Thesoldier made interfering in an arrest against the game rules because marines are sound of mind). You would not stab or shoot your comrade on the ship over lying on a bed you made.
    I agree with your suggestion, though it might need more put into it. Hazel was LRPish for initiating a fight with someone over that but it was hard to determine it at that point because of all the combat logs and the context of the situation.
    I play as Viktor 'Beer' Kleiner, Matthaus and as Var'dqi Bo'ytill




    LT COL. VIKTOR KLEINER, USS LOWË'S COMMANDING OFFICER

    PROVISIONAL COMMAND OVER THE USS ALMAYER


    Ex-CO Councillor. If you have any questions regarding the whitelist, feel free to DM me.
    Discord is Axyinious#3635

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    Whitelisted Predator superjo98's Avatar
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    Logs
    Marsha Shooting Hazel in Briefing, and then being shot by KoT. Logs of previous escalation have been added.
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    PMs between KoT and Axynious
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Not many logs here, if I missed anything please feel free to DM me on discord (superjo98#1797)
    Last edited by superjo98; 07-04-2020 at 11:48 PM.
    I play as Dawson Hook and Brad.

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    CM-SS13 Host ThesoldierLLJK's Avatar
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    If people are fighting in briefing and you think it’s LRP, you can always ahelp that. The defense of yourself and others in ML is so a overzealous MP cannot charge you if you were defending yourself or another, but you still have to mind the server rules. We don’t punish grief on grief most of the time, but if both parties had a fight with proper escalation, you just walking in and blasting the other guy is a rule break. Call the MPs and if the people fighting were attacking you, by all means defend yourself.


    No improper action here
    Last edited by ThesoldierLLJK; 07-05-2020 at 02:49 AM.
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