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Thread: Is CM declining?

  1. #151
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurningMetal View Post
    snip
    Admeme reinforcement doesn't shift the meta. Meta was always rush for the marines, just because multiplying admeme waved finger, doesn't mean that the game was different at its mechanical core.
    And now they stopped punishing marine rushes, because benos are no longer the weakest when marines arrive. Quite the opposite, marines are at the weakest when they drop, thus T3s have OOC ban on going to LZs for couple of few first minutes.
    Marine rush now gives time to build FoB.
    Both faction speedrun the game.

    We can even try to debunk the Faweh post.

    "But a major issue with the gameplay and roleplay is solely in the hands of the Dev team who have spent the last 2years turning CM into an Arcade shooter and done absolutely nothing to implement RP Mechanics or features during this time."
    I'm now scrolling 2017 and 2018 changelog looking for those mythical "RP Mechanics, or features" that supposedly were added:
    "Removed many haircuts that don't fit CM's style."
    "Removed the option to choose to have your character spawn with robotic limbs."
    Most of the stuff were a spritework done by DookySponut, nothing that really sparks the RP.

    "A common theme we hear from Dev's and even Soldier above, are plans to "Rework the rules! Rework RP! Add more mechanics for MP's and RP!".
    But it all boils down to essentially reverting CM 2 years and going back to what Apop, BMC, ForwardSlashN, Rahl and myself established years ago, it's nothing new but the same policies, same ideas and same content."
    Where is it? Where are those better rules, or more mechanics for MP's and RP? I can't spot them in the 2017 and 2018. What I can see is definatelly more hidden rules, forced RP and lack of any RP mechanics that weren't already old clunky ass legacy code.

    "I've said this numerous times already but CM lacks leadership and a common complaint is the lack of direction.
    When CM shifted from a more centralized Administration to a decentralized Administration(more democracy, bureaucratics etc) efficiency and productivity took a huge hit."
    Sure, but where to find a (essentialy) dictator of CM that wouldn't be just a shitty person with more skeletons in the closet than biology teacher at school? No one fits the bill.

    "I've said this numerous times already but CM lacks leadership and a common complaint is the lack of direction."
    Yeah, sure, its not like the direction, that is already strongly imbedded into CM like a bone shrapnell shoot out of the hedgehog rav drags the server down. Which is of course the "Its Marines vs Aliens and Marines are protagonists". How many times other factions were proposed? To shift the meta, to shift the RP, to spice things up. It shouldn't be always Marines vs Benos. Self-Running HvH, XvX, HvZ and such, that would be cool. But NO, because council of beetroot maintains the apop-alt direction of Marines/Benos always and nothing else. Only recent XvX tests give hope of breaking this stupid mindset.

    I feel its just like bunch of Boomers in rose-tinted glasses complaining that "In the past those were the times, now we don't have times". Reverting the code won't do shit, going back into some CM dictatorship won't be any better, going back to the past, just because you know exactly what it was like isn't good. If humanity would follow that principle, you would to this day eat fricking leaves off the trees in Africa.
    REDEMPTION

  2. #152
    Senior Member BurningMetal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausrine View Post
    CM needs staff to refocus their efforts and to then explain those efforts and priorities to players. It feels like the different groups work too much in silos. I have some thoughts on that and CM currently.

    There is a lack of clear vision, or at least communication of one, to the majority of staff and players. It is a major pitfall for CM currently. There isn't much cohesion in how things are updated; it seems piecemeal rather than building blocks each shifted to create or purposefully redesign something.

    Then, there is something about the experience. Perhaps the changes to rules for different roles. Maybe MOBA. Could be lots of things - and whatever causes the lag. Somehow it feels like all the changes have adversely affected CM. I certainly preferred the CM experience I had in 2019. It just doesn't feel as fun recently.

    I wonder if it is also too much staff churn. Every new person wants to make a name for themselves. To put their stamp on things. However, if improperly managed that just results in everyone going off in their own direction. From my (limited) perspective this seems to be the case for development. It's too detached from the rest of staffing and certainly the players.

    Also, when you have people controlling a gaming experience who expressly say they will ignore their players wishes and wants... then you have a problem. If so, just make CM a private thing and invite specific people. Maybe it a "cool person club" or whatever. Lame, but at least then it is honest. However, if it is truly meant to be a game and open to anyone who can follow the server rules, then the player voice should have some weight. Admittedly, I can see the other side of things too. Lack of respect toward staff doesn't exactly endear staff showing respect to player wants and wishes, and even more so player complaints. There is a fine line between genuine constructive critique or honest concern raising, with entitlement and narrow minded requests (e.g. those that buffed or nerfed or changed something that benefitted few, but negatively impact Ed many).

    Of course all of this is easier said than done. Trying to agree a vision and bring it about through careful management and communication - it's hard. Much easier for someone like me, for most players in fact, to be a backseat driver. Staff don't get paid and it is all volunteer work. A high standard of productivity, efficiency and such is unrealistic.

    Still, I do know one thing. Only staff can truly change CM. Players can impact the meta and meme, sure. However, staff control the development and features, the rules, the rule enforcement, the prioritisation of issues and community engagement. It wouldn't be unfair to say CM as it exists now is down to staff. It can only be their responsibility. Discussions like this thread are nice to have, but the best element is honest staff involvement in the discussion. Hopefully this then goes somewhere and we see some changes.

    I don't doubt staff focus on their roles well and they do get stuff done, especially mods, but this thread exists and has had a lot of sympathetic responses. Including from staff. This should be enough evidence that something is going wrong somewhere with CM, and only staff have the power to address this.

    Also, more stuff needs to be codified. There are too many rules and policies that can ambush new or returning players.
    Bump up!

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebittenn View Post
    I'll definitely bump this one up. The roleplay was definitely tighter back in Feweh's days. Probably because the meta was more defensive back then rather than 'unga ball leftward on Prison until results.'
    There was a different tone set back in the day and more of a linear goal in mind.
    There was a narrative that was enforced and players were expected to push towards it. Unfortunately as others have stated, RP usually needs to be enforced and can't be maintained by mechanics or automation. It's just the way the RP works in any game really, both online or board game related.

    I don't think my era was perfect by any means, you still had rushes, you still had meta and you still had power-gamers. I think the fundamental difference was our level of moderation was in-line with our development and gameplay ideology. Meaning we enforced RP/Rules to the standard that we wanted the game to be played and how it was supposed to be. Now players are confused as you have MOBA mechanics and Arcade mechanics being added while the Admin team consistently pushes RP rules. I've said consistently that current CM needs to decide what are they and commit to it 100%.

    Compounding mass amounts of MOBA/Arcade features onto a games structure that was supposed to be roleplay oriented essentially broke a lot of behind the scenes mechanics and features.
    An example of this was our "Pill Bottle Mechanic", which essentially limited marines from opening or using pills bottles. On paper this sounds like a silly mechanic, but the idea was to force roleplay elements through natural conversation and teamwork. Marines being unable to operate or use certains items/tools made them rely on their teamworks for assistance which fostered more roleplay naturally and built relations.
    By allowing marines to be a grand circus pony (able to do everything) and removing restrictions, teamwork takes a backseat and roleplay gets affected.

    Essentially Promoting Teamwork = natural roleplay
    Limiting Teamwork Mechanics = less roleplay


    Edit: I've said this a few times, but CM honestly just needs to decide what it's going to be or become. The limbo state of policy/rule enforcement is strangling the playerbase.

    If CM is going Arcade/Moba with less RP, thats fine.
    If CM is going back to it's root with more RP, that's also fine.

    Just figure out the path you're taking and stick with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    I feel its just like bunch of Boomers in rose-tinted glasses complaining that "In the past those were the times, now we don't have times". Reverting the code won't do shit, going back into some CM dictatorship won't be any better, going back to the past, just because you know exactly what it was like isn't good.
    CABALS not wrong, most people always remember the good parts of the past and seldom remember the bad.
    CM just holds onto a lot of longtime players who play for years, so you constantly end up with this narrative that the past was the best time. Hell I remember a time when the playerbase thought cloning machines were the best era of CM.
    Last edited by Fewher; 07-22-2020 at 09:36 PM.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Don's Avatar
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    Wow feweh you sure are very opinionated for someone who has barely played since coming back

  5. #155
    Whitelisted Synthetic Driker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    CABALS not wrong, most people always remember the good parts of the past and seldom remember the bad.
    CM just holds onto a lot of longtime players who play for years, so you constantly end up with this narrative that the past was the best time. Hell I remember a time when the playerbase thought cloning machines were the best era of CM.
    As someone that has sporadically played off and on over the years, and am lacking memory for even half of what has changed. I am going to say the time when we had cyborgs and old research was the best era.

    ps: bring back echo

  6. #156
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    Rushing is only an issue because of preptime. Xeno preptime was resolved with the maturity update. (it needs tuning tho)
    SLs always dump req if they are slightly competent. Squad req should start dumped or be all access. It is a fucking waste of time busywork.
    Normal req should have all access attachies, they only need to gatekeep the HEDP box and some other crap.

    Replace prep time with RP time.
    Last edited by lurkermain; 07-23-2020 at 10:19 AM.

  7. #157
    Senior Member MasterShakeEZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    HA HA HA HA HA.

    More defensive meta when maturation there was at its prime? Yeah, nobody ever rushed benos west on Prison back on the Faweh's days. Not a single round of that.
    IDK when you started, but getting to ancient t3 used to take like 3 hours. Even mature was afk simulator for t3. So ya they had way more time to take it slow even if xenos did ramp up in power a lot later.

  8. #158
    Whitelisted Predator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    There was a different tone set back in the day and more of a linear goal in mind.
    There was a narrative that was enforced and players were expected to push towards it. Unfortunately as others have stated, RP usually needs to be enforced and can't be maintained by mechanics or automation. It's just the way the RP works in any game really, both online or board game related.

    I don't think my era was perfect by any means, you still had rushes, you still had meta and you still had power-gamers. I think the fundamental difference was our level of moderation was in-line with our development and gameplay ideology. Meaning we enforced RP/Rules to the standard that we wanted the game to be played and how it was supposed to be. Now players are confused as you have MOBA mechanics and Arcade mechanics being added while the Admin team consistently pushes RP rules. I've said consistently that current CM needs to decide what are they and commit to it 100%.

    Compounding mass amounts of MOBA/Arcade features onto a games structure that was supposed to be roleplay oriented essentially broke a lot of behind the scenes mechanics and features.
    An example of this was our "Pill Bottle Mechanic", which essentially limited marines from opening or using pills bottles. On paper this sounds like a silly mechanic, but the idea was to force roleplay elements through natural conversation and teamwork. Marines being unable to operate or use certains items/tools made them rely on their teamworks for assistance which fostered more roleplay naturally and built relations.
    By allowing marines to be a grand circus pony (able to do everything) and removing restrictions, teamwork takes a backseat and roleplay gets affected.

    Essentially Promoting Teamwork = natural roleplay
    Limiting Teamwork Mechanics = less roleplay


    Edit: I've said this a few times, but CM honestly just needs to decide what it's going to be or become. The limbo state of policy/rule enforcement is strangling the playerbase.

    If CM is going Arcade/Moba with less RP, thats fine.
    If CM is going back to it's root with more RP, that's also fine.

    Just figure out the path you're taking and stick with it.



    CABALS not wrong, most people always remember the good parts of the past and seldom remember the bad.
    CM just holds onto a lot of longtime players who play for years, so you constantly end up with this narrative that the past was the best time. Hell I remember a time when the playerbase thought cloning machines were the best era of CM.
    This is a well defined argument, and is one that I mostly agree with.

  9. #159
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterShakeEZ View Post
    IDK when you started, but getting to ancient t3 used to take like 3 hours. Even mature was afk simulator for t3. So ya they had way more time to take it slow even if xenos did ramp up in power a lot later.
    How much time they did have, did not matter. If not for admeme intervention and DS timelock, marines would land in the Colony 12:15, both with old slow maturation, or 2020 evo and mature speed up.
    Back then T1s and T2s weren't a joke like they are now in comparsion to T3s. Back then you didn't need Ancient T3, Mature was good enough. Nobody cared about that, big fast first rush.
    It was always big first rush and by the outcome of this rush you can predict with 99% of probability which side will win.
    Not just slow/fast maturation had anything to do with rushes. Killing T3s and T2s when Queen is off-ovi actually meant something. Now you can kill all T3s, Queen can then Ovi for a second and you immediately have all T2s evolving into powerfull T3s and all T1s evolving into T2s.

    The only time there actually was "Defensive" meta are the (in)famous John Titor all weapons nerf, or mutators.
    During times like that the strat of "Uber FoB" was discovered by COs and used to annoy benos, who bored were simply killing themselfs on the cades. But then started crying about it and here we go now with FoB nerfs, which are reverted, I wonder why.

    Only without maturation marines have a big reason not to rush from the start.
    Last edited by CABAL; 07-23-2020 at 04:07 PM.
    REDEMPTION

  10. #160
    Senior Member SilentMountain's Avatar
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    I think you guys are overcomplicating something that is very simple

    BYOND combat is shit, it will always be shit , specially when it's 100+ people making logs all at the same time. No matter how many items you add to the vendors or how much legacy code you strip from the game. Fact of the matter is that this engine is NOT supportive of mass PVP action and it will never be, adding more and more focus towards MUH WINS MUH K/D RATIO is a fool's errand. You are trying to develop a First Person Shooter and that's just not gonna happen.

    Make the situation interesting, the interactions more engaging, do not try to add more action, that will just make it laggier and stupider, instead make the action that already exists more meaningful. Would a player have every round be mindlessly click onto beno sprites or would a player rather have something to accomplish in a disadvantegous and dangerous situation?. That is why the Xenos being powerful and having a 70% winrate was actually important, because when you're up against something you can easily murderball or take out 1v1 then the entire premise becomes dull and less engaging.

    Again, the gameplay is not able to get any more reflex or skill based than it would be on regular SS13, stop trying to make it happen while also shitting all over whatever little depth the gameplay had.

    By the time you're done making the PvP game you people want and streamline every shipside role into a "click one button" simulator, CM is gonna be with the rest of the TDM servers, right next to Aurora and Citadel.
    Last edited by SilentMountain; 07-24-2020 at 04:30 AM.

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