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Thread: Can we look into stuns?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingPhilipIII View Post
    "T3s are immune to buckshot"

    That deserves a prize for being naive as hell... Snip
    The benomains aren't even on the same page. One says its the stun that is the worst, the other says its the damage.

    Buckshot (as well as standard pulse rifle and M39 ammo) has 0 AP, which means that they got the most affected.

    Go play marine for once, pick a shotgun, load it with atleast one buckshot shell, then examine it and open up "codex", then screenshot the damage to armor board. Then be a T3 other than Boiler and look at your armor, then find in the screenshoted board how much damage you receive from each pellet, then multiple it by 4 and you will get how much damage you get from PB when you are not stunned. Subtract the equation you got from the max health your T3 beno has. Then look in my cybernetic eye on avatar and say that one, or two PBs "force you" to retreat.
    Assuming you don't consider "being forced" to retreat when your HP is still above 75%.

    Don't even try to think about super strong warden pheromones that T3s always get as they are the ones who get to be a leader. Don't even try to think about berserker rav who can outheal PB damage via slashes.

    Stop embarassing yourself.

    One buckshot pellet deals around 1.75 times more damage than one pulse rifle bullet (AP is 0 on both as mentioned previously). One PB deals around the same ammount of damage (raw damage, on unarmored target) as 7 Pulse Rifle bullets, which is around two burst on perfect conditions (all bullets hit and there is no damage falloff).

    Oh no! T3s have to retreat when they got hit by 7 pulse rifle bullets! The horror! One could assume they got gibbed if they got hit by 14 bullets. I don't want to think what happens when they got hit by half of a magazine, I guess they disappear into another dimention after having -100000 points of damage.

  2. #52
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    Im surprised marine mains know the ins and outs of xenos gameplay all of a sudden

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Oh yeah, splintined broken bones have no drawbacks, right? They don't still cause pain, they don't slow you down, they don't randomly break when hit for 1 point of damage?
    If its chest/head/groin that is splinted and you get FFed/acided/slashed once/naded/anything, then you have to spend 10 seconds to splint yourself, or run and die out of the organ damage and its easy to not notice when your splints comes off, its just one line of red text, alongside shitton on red text.
    If its arm, or hand, you will drop shit and stop wielding anything.

    Imagine being a benomain so much, that you forgot that marine who dies out of brute damage must have some lingering efect that won't go away for good unless he goes to the surgery.

    Now imagine that nobody cares about nade FF damage, its all about the stun. Exactly as with slugs. If somebody throws a nade, it was most likely made with beno on screen, beno either avoids stun entirely, or wakes up way faster than marines. Then it slashes marines lying down and drags one offscreen. Thats what kills marines, nade stun and benos. Nades don't kill benos either, its the follow up that does that.

    2. I'm not fucking talking about neuro, look at my past comments in this thread, I think that most of the benos stuns are fine, with exception to RNG on scatter spitter and thats even for benefit of benos, because now RNG might fuck them up.

    So fucking what that marines say "xenos mad" when xenomains talk about buckshot? Like "xenos mad", or "marines mad" ever had any impact on devs decision. You imagine that devs look at the issue of a beno talking about buckshot, they think they should balance it, but then they notice some marines writing "xenos mad" and then they refuse to do anything?

    Don't look for fucking excuses for your benomain behaviour of beating around the bush. Other side complaining has never stopped devs from nerfing/buffing anything. Look at Corpse Dragging, look at combat huggers, look at perma nest. Both marines and benos cried A LOT when the other side proposed this changes. I was here when corpse dragging was a thing, its the issue that pushed me into those stupid discussions on a game I no longer enjoy playing, even other servers. Their cries ever stopped those changes? Can benos drag revivable uninfected corpses now? Can benos immediately infect you? Can you break out of the nest on your own? If answer to those questions is "no", then you have proof that other side mocking you never had any real impact.

    Stop trying to blame marines for buckshot, they are not to blame here, because they have 0 power over the server, just as benos doesn't have either. Every time marines find something very effective, its being nerfed anyway, just not buckshot. Find responsible for it, I won't point fingers, I hope that brain benomainism didn't consume all of the gray matter inside.

    I don't remember seeing a gitlab, or forum thread about specifically buckshot for a long time. Its always "shotguns", or no armor marines, never buckshot. Maybe its time to stop being a benomain and make a thread only about buckshot? Maybe its time to make gitlab only about buckshot? Without classic benomain beating around the LV bush.
    when it's shotguns it's usually talking about how powerful the stuns is but alright your big paragraphs must mean you're right.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by recounted View Post
    when it's shotguns it's usually talking about how powerful the stuns is but alright your big paragraphs must mean you're right.
    And your small one sentence responses to a fairly extensive discussion about the issue must mean thats the benomain irony?

    I hope flechette shotguns don't stun you for too long, because that would be embarassing.

    "when it's shotguns it's usually talking about how powerful the stuns is"

    Literally:
    Quote Originally Posted by KingPhilipIII View Post
    ... The problem with buckshot isn't it's stun, no matter what the fuck anyone tells you. It's the absurd alpha damage...
    Which benomain is right here? Time for a little cat-fight.

  5. #55
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    When devs go opensource it's gonna be fun to spreadsheet all the numbers. Most of the people that play xeno or a little bit of bothsides already knows that it takes around a dozen slashes to down a marine in regular armor. Where that marine only need 5? 6? PBs to down a T3. A pvt marine is like a T1 xeno, except they are waaaaaay too tanky. Not to mention lots of times marines get slashed to death by T3s and Queens only to have superficial damage or a few fractures after they get revived.

    All you hear from marine mains is that the math is incorrect. NOT POSSIBLE BENOMAINS! The math will be revealed soon. So we shall see. It'll be funny seeing the reaction of some of the loudmouths the past year who kept saying it wasn't true. I will spreadsheet how many slashes it takes to kill marine in all types of armor, for every caste. I will spreadsheet the DPS of every marine gun vs every xeno caste to reveal the truth. Then I'm going to number crunch out a theortical if this caste kills 100 marines via slashing/acid, how many of those would have severe wounds? (long term damage)

    My prediction? A unga with PB shotgun can rapidly kill almost all castes except crusher, FASTER than a T3 can kill the marine. On top of that, having played medic A LOT, I'm going to say that long term damage is like paincrit, reverse chestbursting, and acid blood. It still exists, but it's so rare to see that it's a joke.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco Ward View Post
    Snipped cringe rant
    It takes 10 slashes to kill a marine when they
    -dont wear light armour
    -you target chest not hand or foot
    -you don't use abilities

    Xenos have stun and damage abilities to make killing easier and you aren't even seeming to recognise them

    Yes you can rapidly kill with PB if the xeno stands there like a lemon but if they have more than 2 braincells you will know they can just use any ability to help them escape or fight back or they can just run away if stun immune

    The only stun immune beno at risk of PB death is like hivelord and carrier

    You can get off 4 PBs on a rav and it can just fuck off and heal itself

    While broken bones especially on legs and feet slow you down even when splinted, and speed is vital to PB

    Every time you die with frac your speed is nerfed and as such your killing ability is nerfed as well

    Long term slowdown is way more important than long term damage because you can 100% counter that with peri. You can't remove splint slowdown.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocco Ward View Post
    Snip
    No need to wait for open source, each and every beno has displayed its damage in "status" tab.

    Marine uniform decreases melee damage by 10-15%, Medium Amor by 20%, Heavy by 25% and light by 15%. Helmet, boots and gloves 20%. By combining the decrease, lets assume heavy armor and marine uniform, slashes on torso, around 40% decrease in damage is the best case scenario for marine. Endurance is not confirmed, it says that marines have "Endurance 1", but nobody has "Endurance 0", we could again assume the best for marines, so its another 5% of damage ressistance.

    Lurker deals 35 raw damage. 35 x 0.45 = 15.75 (lets "up it") = 16 35 - 16 = 19.

    It takes 11 lurker hits on torso to kill a marine, assuming that oxy damage is uninvolved and marine stands still till he reaches -100 and then suddently dies. 11 hits on torso from lurker to kill marine in Heavy Armor.

    However, you won't PB a beno 11 times in the same time as you can slash a marine 11 times, DPS is harder to present.

    Keep in mind we consider here a situation, where both marine and beno stand next to each other, none of them is stunned, none of them drops a weapon, none of them goes to crit, none of them uses any ability, none of them heals during that time, they just reach their "death" and they immediately drop.

    I don't remember Rav damage, I assume 50, since Lurker had 45 before nerf.

    0.45 x 50 = 22.5 = 23 50 - 23 = 27. 200 / 30 = above 7, so 8.

    Now no armor marine against nerfed lurker: 200 / 35 = 6
    No armor marine against "supposedly" rav: 200 / 50 - 4

    Now lets take into consideration, that marines drop into crit at -50 (without meds). It leaves marines with 150 health points.

    Heavy armor, endurance and uniform on torso 150 / 19 = above 7, so 8.

    naked marine 150/35 = above 4, so 5.

    Yes, naked marine with buckshot shotgun standing next to a lurker, PBing it will do more damage than lurker (not counting acid blood damage) standing next to each other, not being stunned, or at all impacted by their own blows, untill actual death. However lurker for example, isn't supposed to stand next to a marine and trade blows, isn't he?

    One could easly assume that rav standing next to a fully armed marine with single buckshot shotgun will easly kill a marine before dying itself with those numbers. I'm not sure if he doesn't have more than raw 50 damage.

    So I don't see that "tankyness" you see in PFCs. They have "200" HP, go to crit at 50, their best possible armor reduces the damage by 45%.

    Thats best case scenario for a marine, lets assume "worst" case scenario, because what beno aims torso? Head if you want to kill, or feet/hand if you want to cripple.
    Helmet, feet and hands have 20% decrease and endurance 1 should have 5%. Uniform, or Heavy Armor doesn't cover them.

    Lurker 35 x 0.25 = 8.75 = 9 35 - 9 = 26 200 / 26 = above 7, so 8 150 / 26 = above 5, so 6.
    "Rav" 50 x 0.25 = 12.5 = 13 50 - 13 = 37 200 / 37 = above 5, so 6 150 / 37 = very, very slighty above 4, so 5

    Here we got it, "rav" (still can't remember exact damage, I assume 50, but Its most likely more) aiming and hitting all heads on a marine needs 6 slashes to kill marine. Pretty sure 6 PBs won't kill a rav. And head, feet and hands are protected the same for every marine.

    Now lets again remind, that this "quick maths" assumes that both beno and marine stand next to each other, marine doesn't get hit by acid blood, each slash from a beno is as slow as a PB from a marine, beno doesn't use any abilities, beno isn't under effect of any pheromones (and T3s constantly are as they are choosed for leaders), marines doesn't drop into paincrit at all (he stands still as predator would), marine isn't affected by broken bones, or damaged organs, perfect RNG accuracy from beno and little to no armor damage from repeated PBs.

    Then again, does it ever happen that any beno just stands next to marines and trades blows? Berserker rav is probably the only case, where he outheals single PBs from marines anyway with his slashes.



    And then, at the end, it still just pure, raw data in this assymetrical game. Using TF2 as reference, stock soldier kills stock scout in 2 rockets, stock scout can kill stock soldier in 2 "meatshots" (pbs), but otherwise, requires atleast 3 shoots. Does that makes encounters of stock scout vs stock soldier unbalanced? No, because speed, hitbox, general mobility etc comes into play.

    Trying to prove a point by matching both sides in the ideal conditions for the one side is silly.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan_albatross View Post
    -you don't use abilities
    Most of the special damage abilities require some kind of windup. Neuro, stomp, pounce, all stun very briefly. (where something like HEDP stuns for seconds) Also marine weapons aren't tickbased. When the server lags hard, marines can still fire their guns at 60 fps, while all xeno abilities take double or triple the time for their cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan_albatross View Post
    Yes you can rapidly kill with PB if the xeno stands there like a lemon but if they have more than 2 braincells you will know they can just use any ability to help them escape or fight back or they can just run away if stun immune
    Marines can chase most xenos pretty easily. They can shoot while chasing or fleeing as well, which is something many xenos can't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan_albatross View Post
    You can get off 4 PBs on a rav and it can just fuck off and heal itself
    A marine in medium armor can OUTRUN a rav if there are no weeds. I did this today as a pyro marine who was being chased by a rav and laughed as I sprayed his ass with M39 AP when he extended too far. Also I'm pretty sure a marine with a buck shotty can kill a rav in DPS faster than a rav can kill the marine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan_albatross View Post
    While broken bones especially on legs and feet slow you down even when splinted, and speed is vital to PB
    Broken bones aren't as common as you are saying. When I medic, I don't see that much permanent damage that needs fixing especially for revives. When healing I see the following:

    Broken Bones ~15%
    Delimbs ~1%
    IB/Ruptured Lungs ~5%
    Bloodloss Oxy Damage ~5%
    Eye Damage ~1%


    I'm using those numbers based on what I encountered playing medic several times recently in the past few months.

    TLDR; Math doesn't lie. Once the game goes opensource, there will be no more illusions on statistics. I have a feeling it's going to be an absolute shitstorm of salt for the xeno side. It was hard to quantify these statistics without hard numbers before especially throwing in different maturities. For instance, it takes 3 PB buck to kill a young queen based on the old maturity system. Also the same thing will happen to preds. When you see 1 trapped pred getting slashed by several T3s for a solid minute but not dying... you begin to wonder how much hp it fucking has. Or maybe the slashes don't do enough damage. Regardless, there will be no more reason to speculate on game balance. No longer shall anybody be blind to how weak a weapon is.

    I've actually got a spreadsheet ready to plug in the numbers. Whichever admin/developer/mod is in charge of balancing this game has failed at their job IMO. I'm strongly considering the possibility of running a no-lag CM with everything re-balanced properly. Most of the balance in this current era of CM has been knee-jerk reactions and eyeballing stuff. There is a lot of potential for unused mechanics that sit in the background and collect dust.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyLee View Post
    Lol it had its AP removed from PB. When was the last time you played lol
    he's not really relevant except making le funny 'me no roll queen restart round' joke

  10. #60
    Dev Team Manager Stan_albatross's Avatar
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    "Neuro, stomp, pounce, all stun very briefly. "
    They make rines drop their gun which fucks up the double chungus PB thing and makes them have to spam macro unless they have MH

    "They can shoot while chasing or fleeing as well, which is something many xenos can't do." - use dir assist and get good lol. It should not be hard to press a key and click at the same time

    "A marine in medium armor can OUTRUN a rav if there are no weeds. " Then don't be a lemon and overextend off weeds without support


    "I'm strongly considering the possibility of running a no-lag CM with everything re-balanced properly." - your idea of balance just seems to be buffing beno and nerfing marine stuns, the main thing that makes playing marine bearable

    If you do make such a server I'd like to see how many current players want to return to the 70/30 winrates of old
    Karl Karlsson, the man (and sometimes Captain)
    Maxwell, the synth
    Enhath'vot Guan-Dha, the predator
    Also a feature Coder & CM's Maintainer Team Manager

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