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View Poll Results: is the dev team doing a good job?

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    15 28.85%
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Thread: is the dev team doing a good job?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Stan_albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    No, I don't know what you mean by MOBA despite having played league for ~1000 hours. The only parallel I can draw is top-down view (not moba specific) and abilities (not moba specific).
    The label of moba was applied to the xeno rework because of the abilities
    Karl Karlsson, the man who is (probably) good at everything

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  2. #42
    Senior Member SilentMountain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    No, I don't know what you mean by MOBA despite having played league for ~1000 hours. The only parallel I can draw is top-down view (not moba specific) and abilities (not moba specific).
    Of course , what do you feel is a more appropiate name for the direction the server is moving onto ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I didn't mean that ss13 isn't fit for roleplay, I meant that it was never designed for it, and that rp came from community effort.

    And besides, this server was also a "mass pvp thing" back when we had rp.
    I feel like you're missing the point. People are not upset by the game being a mass pvp thing, people are upset that the server has turned into a pure TDM in detriment of RP or any depth that roles besides PFC had. What im saying is that "SS13 was not made for RP" is a very poor excuse when mass pvp is something SS13 was 100% not designed to handle yet the devs persisted in that direction but somehow cannot do anyting regarding the state of RP.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    And foolosopher is right, SS13 was not made for roleplay. The original design was an atmospheric sim with an Among Us/Town of Salem/TTT gamemode stapled to the front. The roleplay has always been a community effort and that's how it USED TO be here, but current players would rather point fingers, be nostalgic about a game they don't remember or better yet, didn't play, say meme shit ICly and cry.
    I don't think you yourself have played GOON SS13 if you're making comments like this.
    SS13 did indeed begin as an Atmos sim but quickly diverted towards a RP community with as you said "Among Us" like traitors.

    The first and arguably real iteration of common SS13 began with the GOON server who attracted attention from mainstream media and boosted the player counts from 20-30 to 50-60 on average.
    I'm quite adamant about this, but SS13 (especially present day) was developed and forwarded by RP tools and mechanics. The base game of SS13 can be traced back to the GOON Code, ideas, mechanics and not the Atmos version of SS13.

    Saying that the original base game wasn't intended for RP is a stupid argument to justify a lack of RP within current CM or the inability to encourage RP in current CM.
    It's decisively obvious if you look back on past CM and past SS13 that RP has strived. It's only the recent years that current staff (like you), continue to justify any reason possible to discredit or encourage stronger RP Mechanics in CM.

    The real reason that RP has diminished is clear.

    You have a staff team that has for the last few years been actively AGAINST Roleplay and avoided adding or even maintaining RP Mechanics that were already present. This has encouraged a player-base for years now to abandon RP in favor of Arcade mechanics and divert them towards a more "Team-Deathmatch" mentality.

    Staff are the primarily the problem with why RP levels have dropped to near no-rp or low-rp, especially people like this: rp.PNG

    This is an exhausting argument that I've been pretty stubborn on.
    Stop blaming the playerbase and the base game for how RP has progressed on CM over the years. Instead look towards why 3 years ago RP worked, was higher, enforced and mechanics added to support it. Now look at the last few years with staff OPENLY saying they're against RP, don't care and the complete lack of RP encouragement and mechanics from the Dev team. You can look back on retirement threads over the last few years of some prominent admins, mods and mentors. Theres a common theme of why they left, with some outspokenly stating the lack of RP and direction of the game is completely different from what they started playing (Rob being the most recent).

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolosopher View Post
    Charlie breakfast, old delta, bravo fobbit culture, crazy ROs, crazy medbay: these are some examples of RP that people remember fondly. However, why did they even begin to exist? Certainly it wasn't a design decision: ROs having absolute power over supply distribution and medbay having 20+ patients on average was fun for these departments, but not for the marines, and squad culture was entirely player developed and based on players knowing each other after many rounds played together. Not even a committee of 16 Fewehs could plan such "fun".
    This is the prime example of whats wrong with the current Dev teams mentality, Foolosopher has no idea what he's talking about.
    EVERYTHIGN YOU SAID THERE IS ROLEPLAY, it's a system, mechanic or feature developed to forward roleplay and encourage teamwork within a round. Teamwork encourages roleplay, it encourages conversation and it promotes reliance on your fellow marine, all forwarding an end-goal narrative.
    Streamlining these features and mechanics to an arcade format has completely caved the roleplay elements.

    The problem is clear, but staff (like don & foolosopher) who have no idea what they're talking about constantly try to push another narrative. It kills me to even have to read some of the current staff's mentality as it's so backwards and against the original vision of CM. It's almost shameful that you can have people like Don and Foolosopher on the staff team representing CM who are so incredibly disconnected from the original idea and vision of the game but somehow believe they are "right".
    Last edited by Fewher; 10-01-2020 at 05:17 PM.

  4. #44
    Community Manager ThesoldierLLJK's Avatar
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    Exvad1 designed SS13 as a roleplay game, the first SS13 servers (I would know I ran one) were all about playing your role unless someone was the traitor. But even then tratior mode was a basic toolbox murderbone mafia sim. Even during the meteor game mode everyone played their role to keep the station alive until you could evac the shuttle.

    Only nuke with the syndicate invaders was the true action pew pew mode, and even then it was basic.

    And feweh is pretty much correct, Exvad1 abandoned the project in the mid 2000's, so members of the Something Awful community (myself included) got the code and started playing around, and eventually Goon did bring SS13 into the mainstream. We always considered SS13 a 2D RP game.

    I don't consider CM a TDM game, I consider it a RP game with action elements. However in the past month I haven't seen a lot of the dumb shit we've seen in the past in regards to "LRP" I think the problem is everyone including the staff/developers can't get a clear vision on how the game should be.
    Last edited by ThesoldierLLJK; 10-01-2020 at 05:17 PM.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Stan_albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    I don't think you yourself have played GOON SS13 if you're making comments like this.
    SS13 did indeed begin as an Atmos sim but quickly diverted towards a RP community with as you said "Among Us" like traitors.

    The first and arguably real iteration of common SS13 began with the GOON server who attracted attention from mainstream media and boosted the player counts from 20-30 to 50-60 on average.
    I'm quite adamant about this, but SS13 (especially present day) was developed and forwarded by RP tools and mechanics. The base game of SS13 can be traced back to the GOON Code, ideas, mechanics and not the Atmos version of SS13.

    Saying that the original base game wasn't intended for RP is a stupid argument to justify a lack of RP within current CM or the inability to encourage RP in current CM.
    It's decisively obvious if you look back on past CM and past SS13 that RP has strived. It's only the recent years that current staff (like you), continue to justify any reason possible to discredit or encourage stronger RP Mechanics in CM.

    The real reason that RP has diminished is clear.

    You have a staff team that has for the last few years been actively AGAINST Roleplay and avoided adding or even maintaining RP Mechanics that were already present. This has encouraged a player-base for years now to abandon RP in favor of Arcade mechanics and divert them towards a more "Team-Deathmatch" mentality.

    Staff are the primarily the problem with why RP levels have dropped to near no-rp or low-rp, especially people like this: rp.PNG

    This is an exhausting argument that I've been pretty stubborn on.
    Stop blaming the playerbase and the base game for how RP has progressed on CM over the years. Instead look towards why 3 years ago RP worked, was higher, enforced and mechanics added to support it. Now look at the last few years with staff OPENLY saying they're against RP, don't care and the complete lack of RP encouragement and mechanics from the Dev team.

    The problem is clear, stop making excuses.
    >r4407
    >RP

    >goon
    >RP

    r4407 was arguably content-devoid. The only well-developed system was combat (and power and atmos) so most mechanical gameplay was limited to
    - powering station via singulo solars teg turbine
    - making ttvs to grief
    - medbay """"gameplay"""" which was half cloning half sleeper
    - genetics which had 6 beneficial mutations
    - robotics which only made borgs
    - botany (which was surprisingly well developed)
    - cargo which was useless

    So the only things one could really do for an extended amount of time in r4407 was to fight or to RP

    Which one did the community pick?

    They chose to fight. Cuban pete, George melons, all hallmarks of content drought in which it was all just more relaxed rules around griefing and also ttv spam.

    How has goon continued to develop RP to this day?

    The current goon 1 server has no rp standards at all. OOC chat is disabled during the game as there are no rules about OOC in IC.

    Goon RP is decidedly LRP. The main "rp" rules are antagonist power checks and no ooc in ic.

    What server did stand forth as the shining light of RPing?

    Bay probably.

    I will agree that current issues of lrp are due to lax staff enforcement of RP rules to the point where
    - You can say "big chungus" on a squad channel and have no punishment
    - You can reference a wojak meme as a synth and have no punishment (saw this happen once)
    - new players continually use textspeak ic for multiple multiple rounds or break rule #12 many rounds in a row and seem to recieve no punishment.

    However part of this is also on the community. The players themselves seem to have become more accepting of LRP, defending meme character names and LRP actions that led to ic then ooc consequences.

    For an example, one round, sadar is aiming his unloaded sadar at people in the alamo. This is incredibly LRP and obviously something nobody in the actual military would do and definitely nobody who had reached SGT rank.

    turns out the sadar got loaded and he ended up gibbing a marine.

    Then he gets a dogpile of ooc support consisting of ooc copypastas etc defending him for his LRP action and the IC consequences that followed it (a BE which is a totally seperate topic all in itself...)

    RP mechanics

    this term infuriates me because there is never any good definition of what an rp mechanic is

    what rp mechanics have been removed in the last few years? necro and infections? old pain overlay? PB acid blood paincrit?

    What ones did we have in the first place? Skills (ok these are probably RP mechanics)? Pen and paper? the fax machine? the ability to me" ?

    you can rp in r4407 just as much as in current build, but in both times the community has preferred action over rp.

    the only difference is in current build we have mechanical stuff to take their minds off mindless killing or ttv bombing

    obviously mechanics like gameified control points are LRP, but feweh, what do you define an RP mechanic as?

    What were some removed RP mechanics and why did they enhance RP?

    What current mechanics do we have that take away from rp?
    Karl Karlsson, the man who is (probably) good at everything

    Maxwell the synth, the robot who wants your metal and always recycles
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  6. #46
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    I don't want to take away from a lot of the questions you've asked or points you brought up, but I've gone through extensively the mechanics, enforcements and policies that have been degraded over the last few years numerous times.
    As I've said, this is an exhausting conversation as I've beaten the horse to death at this point. So if you want to a lot of my points about how the Staff Team (specifically Dev team) has degraded RP in the last few years you'll have to search through my posts as I can't be fucked to type it all out again for the 10th time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan_albatross View Post
    However part of this is also on the community. The players themselves seem to have become more accepting of LRP, defending meme character names and LRP actions that led to ic then ooc consequences.
    I will touch base on this since it's a common narrative or excuse from the current CM team.

    The player-base is only going to move towards power-gaming and meta-gaming mechanics in lieu of role-play. This is due to the nature of ANY roleplay environment as it requires MODERATION and MECHANICS to foster any form of roleplay.
    This can be observed is present RP games, such as DnD (Game-Masters), Tabletops (Dungeon-Master) and any Roleplay online game (Heavy Moderation with strong report functions). Anyone who's played DnD or other heavy-RP games can a-test that players require moderation or they will abandon RP to benefit themselves whenever possible.

    Roleplay has always required moderation for it to function since it's inception, since you're relying on a player to follow set rules and lore environment. In almost any roleplay environment or game, you'll have players who will forgo their Roleplay in order to better themselves or their character.

    However, MODERATION of Roleplay only works if the game itself is geared towards Roleplay.
    This is the fundamental problem with CM currently as the Dev team pumps out updates with little RP in-mind. So essentially the moderation team is working against the current, fighting an uphill battle to enforce RP when the game itself is no longer encouraging players to work together or roleplay.


    So yes, the playerbase will conform to whatever the game direction it's headed in which is Team-Deathmatch/No-RP. The argument that the "Players wanted Deathmatch" is true now due to the shift in ethics of the playerbase, but wasn't true a year ago when the Dev Team shat Arcade mechanics all over a medium-rp game.

    Additionally, this bleeds into the Staff Team (Mods/Admins) as the intake of staff comes from the playerbase who are largely LOW-RP now so you're ending up with new Staff who don't even know what RP is nor do they understand how to enforce it or any standards.

    Tl;Dr: Staff/Dev Team have degraded RP so heavily over the years that the playerbases ethics have in-large shifted towards NO-RP/Low-RP and the pool for recruitment is poisoned furthered by these players becoming staff ever forwarding a Deathmatch/NO-RP CM.
    Last edited by Fewher; 10-01-2020 at 07:49 PM.

  7. #47
    Whitelisted Captain Don's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    snip
    I find it funny that you talk about powergaming and staff enforcement. I very vividly remember how blatant powergaming was back in the day. In fact, the entire game was designed to give marines a limited supply of OP shit, and who got their hands on it decided the outcome of the round. Old RPG, blue flame being a crusher destroyer, breaking into CE's for earmuffs, stealing tac's etc. I'll even go as far as to say the old days were more powergamey than the current state, simply because a lot of it was removed mechanically. Moreover the enforcement of powergaming was extremely biased, with admins being more lenient or anal towards certain players (or items).

    My argument about early ss13 RP wasn't meant to say that RP doesn't fit into the game, but to prove that it's a community effort.

    As for rule enforcement, I can first hand say that everything that is ahelped is taken care of (unless no staff on server). Problem is, a lot of people don't ahelp, and it's impossible to see everything on a server with 120 people. I won't talk about what actually should be enforced and how because then I'd have to talk about management.

    Lastly, I can kind of agree on staff harming RP over the years but it's hardly only their fault. Let's not forget that the playerbase of ss13 itself has changed due to various tubertides and cm, being one of the largest servers, obviously suffers from it. But what I don't get is where the blame lies with devs exactly. People say "devs are making cm a tdm!!!!!" but this was always a tdm? The round end condition is to kill the other team, you can't talk it out with the bad guy like on bay. That would get you banned here in fact. I still have yet to see someone make a cohesive and detailed point explaining what devs did exactly that killed roleplay; what I did hear is a lot of broad statements and strawmans.

  8. #48
    Dev Team Foolosopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    snip of latest post
    Don has already said everything I could say about your comparisons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fewher View Post
    This is the prime example of whats wrong with the current Dev teams mentality, Foolosopher has no idea what he's talking about.
    EVERYTHIGN YOU SAID THERE IS ROLEPLAY
    Also wanna point out that I never said that those things aren't roleplay, but I can't help bad reading comprehension.

  9. #49
    Dev Team Foolosopher's Avatar
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    People didn't RP more, there were more RP people back then. I have no doubts about features or staff decisions driving these people away, but saying you can design the game to either have or not have RP is bonkers. Because that implies old CM was well designed.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolosopher View Post
    People didn't RP more, there were more RP people back then. I have no doubts about features or staff decisions driving these people away, but saying you can design the game to either have or not have RP is bonkers. Because that implies old CM was well designed.
    Streamlining mechanics into an arcade format doesn't make for a better game, it makes for a different game.
    But thats of course a matter of opinion.

    And yes, you absolutely can develop a game to have RP.

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