User Tag List

View Poll Results: Which topics did you agree with?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • I agree on perma nests

    9 34.62%
  • I disagree on perma nests

    15 57.69%
  • I agree on capping

    19 73.08%
  • I disagree on capping

    2 7.69%
  • I agree on forward nests

    11 42.31%
  • I disagree on forward nests

    10 38.46%
  • I agree on regurgitate

    18 69.23%
  • I disagree on regurgitate

    3 11.54%
  • I agree with everything

    5 19.23%
  • I disagree with everything

    5 19.23%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: Capping 'n Nesting, the thread

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    166
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Capping 'n Nesting, the thread

    So I'm writing this thread off the back of a round in which I got forward nested before being hugged. So if you wanna just dismiss everything that I've got to say as me being "tilted" go ahead. the purpose of this thread is for me to list my grievances and thoughts on the nesting system and see basically what the communities opinions on them. This will be formatted similar to my previous post where I'll state the topic, a summary and then give my own personal take on the matter.

    Permanent nesting,
    -Nests and hive no longer required to be guarded by xenos.
    -Players can no longer breakout of nests regardless of their status.

    Its pretty obvious why this is a controversial issue, implemented so one or two xenos didn't have to spend 30minutes of there round sitting protecting the hive because that's boring. A good argument a lot of xeno players and devs have used it I mean its really good except it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny and here's why...
    You've got the choice between a player spending 30 minutes of the round protecting the HIVE or, remove a player completely from the remainder of the round. So first off this shouldn't even be a debate on which is the appropriate option, I'd much rather waste 30 minutes of my round if it meant I could continue playing for the rest. Furthermore, the whole reason xenos are fighting the marines ICly at least is for the sake of defending the HIVE so to say its dumb to have xenos sit and protect the literal reason for the fight taking place is kinda all sorts of backwards. As for it being boring... Yea! but for crying out loud at least its only 2 xenos at most having to sit back rather than I dunno say an entire squad of ~10 players give or take?

    On one side you're saying its boring for xenos to have to protect an area of vital importance both ICly and mechanically and yet on the other saying its not boring for a marine player to be completely locked out of playing the game in the "hopes" that they "might" be rescued and well technically you'd be right because its not boring its frustrating for that marine.

    The reason why nesting was such a pain in the past was due to the fact that the sentinel caste responsible for watching and guarding nests was completely garbage and RNG dependant. As a result warriors would be forced to sit back in the hive to watch and monitor the captured marines instead of being on the frontlines. However due to the improvements made to the sentinel caste there really is no reason for such an overkill method of nesting to be featured anymore. Now you might think, "If they do remove permanent nesting, what's stopping a sent from just neuro spamming you whilst capped?" Nothing absolutely nothing but at least at the very minimum you get a chance of escaping a chance of continuing your round. That's really all this comes down to, marine players just want the chance. You may also ask, "If the marine player does break free what's stopping them from taking a suicide pill?" Well again that's the whole point of the escape system. It was to give a marine player a final chance of redemption/revenge either by killing xenos, themselves or running to freedom. Now there are some criticism for this, a denied cap isn't fun for xenos especially if it was from a marine that was nested but here's the thing, neuro is a 30 second sleep and can be reset per each additional neuro blast. this means it is very unlikely that a sentinel player who knows what they're doing will ever have a marine escape. As for the marine, they cannot open inventory whilst nested meaning upon breaking free they need to take time (even if it is just a second) to get that suicide pill or to toggle their suit light. that's a window the sent player can also exploit. In other words if the sent players are mindful of which marines are slept and for how long then there should be no problems, if the marine manages to break free and do whatever's next then the fault lies on the xeno for doing a poor job guarding. (play bad, get punished)

    Solution?
    Allow marines to escape, one cap is now worth 2 larva meaning being able to deny a cap is all the more important these days as its what can help prevents xeno pop from just exploding into the ~40's.

    Capping is hard/difficult
    -false statement based on players unwillingness to adapt their strategies.
    -Ok so some truth, dependant on how the rounds being played and locations being fought.

    Capping is easy, Yes for some castes (lurker, rav etc...) its near impossible but that's kind of the point or at least it was originally. Each caste is a specialisation meant to be really good in a particular aspect of xeno gameplay. This nuance to castes is what makes them enjoyable to me at least. Being able to play the same faction but have a variety of different methods of playing is really a good thing (good job devs). So where does this argument stem from? for a lot of hives these days the ability on whether they get caps or not is dependant on if the queen is screeching for caps and from this players come to the conclusion that to have any reliable method of capping you must have the queen do it. Its a fair assessment as yes a queen who's focused on getting caps will indeed have an entire hive filled with caps. But here's the thing, the reason why all those nests are filled with caps is also because the entire hive is actively playing for caps. Basically if you play for caps as a hive surprisingly you can get caps. And whilst the queen screech and drag is by far the easiest method for getting caps its by no means the "only" method.
    examples;
    Sentinels, they're buffed compared to how they used to be and can easily stun lock marines. Yes if trying to cap against a group of marines it will be met with failure (wtf do you expect??) play smart, pick off lone marines and skirmish at range and from dark as the role is intended. Or go scatter sent and fuck some shit up.
    Warriors, can lunge and fling someone right back into xeno lines or if they feel spicy right into an egg morpher or trap. Can also just grab someone and hold them down as a carrier applies a hugger.
    Praetorian (oppressor), similar to the warrior except you yank marines towards you. Just have a sent with you and once the marine is yoinked the sent can take it from there.
    Runner, by far the riskiest but it can be done. Pounce and drag. Or pushing.

    In general if xenos coordinate with one another capping is a rather easy affair regardless of whether the queen is screeching or not. Again play bad, get punished.

    Solution?
    Stop killing easy caps. Play as a team and communicate. Xenos dont have the same "standards" of RP as marines do and xenos already use a bunch of meta stuff during rounds. So why not put it all to good use and work together. No one listens to leaders because leaders aren't actually leaders just shortcuts to cameras. Start reinforcing the idea that leaders hold weight as do the queens words. I mean a lot of xeno players already know one another so its not like it would be too difficult for you to just start shifting the attitudes of xenos in general. And yes listening to a bald queen give dumb orders is annoying and complying with those orders is suicidal but here's the thing. When I play a marine in Alpha and my squad gets ordered to push into a very exposed area alone. I accept that I'm gonna die but I follow those orders anyway not because I want to but because if people who frequent a squad stop following command then soon after no one in that squad will listen to command. (I might make a thread about this issue in general) But in short, if everyone plays as a team and commits to an order even if its a dumb one it might just work out in the end.

    Forward nesting
    -stops xenos from having to run across the entire map just to nest.
    -means xenos can focus on staying in the fight for longer rather than having them peel off one at a time to nest.
    -Can be pushed to free caps.

    The reason forward nesting is on here is due to how easy it can be exploited in conjunction with permanent nesting. Simply put, multiple full health marines can be taken out of the fight because a queen screeched or they got stunned/disarmed near a nest. Now I'm not calling for a xeno code of honor but this is an exceptionally scummy way to remove someone from the round. because first off its unfair, the marine is more than capable of fighting and is unhugged yet is unable to take any action and again the fact of whether they get to continue playing the round is completely dependant on the push. You could argue that if they got nested then they could easily be capped and whilst a fair point its not exactly correct, If the marine player was still able to escape the nest then they could potentially well escape in the time it takes for the xenos to get a carrier or an egg to the marines location. Again running theme about giving players a chance of doing something rather than the outright removal of player agency and nuance that this game has.

    Regurgitate stunning
    -Prevents xenos from being PB'd after devouring a marine.

    Handholding, I wont beat around the push this is handholding plain and simple. You think its unfair for a xeno to get hurt when the marine they devoured gets out? But its not unfair for that same able bodied marine who can fight, to be stunned in place long enough to be disarmed again.

    A drone quickly devours a marine they managed to tackle, the marine is uninjured and has all their weapons yet is restricted to simply knifing the drone as the drone runs towards a carrier/egg to hug the marine player and remove them from the round permanently. The marine limited to using their knife slowly nibbles away at the drones health however as the time between hits is rather generous for the drone, the drone is able to travel quite the distance before its health gets dangerously low. The drone seeing its health decides rather than going all the way back to the hive it will instead travel towards the nearest pylon build a nest and some walls and then regurgitate the marine. As the marine is stunned the drone is free to tackle spam them and then proceeds to nest the marine.

    So... the actual fuck is going on here, its unfair for a marine to possibly PB a xeno but its fine for the xeno to just shit on the marine. C'mon thats bullshit handholding.
    Solution?
    Remove the regurgitate stun, if you're gonna cap a marine who has their weapons and isn't neuro'd then you're rolling the dice. And if that marine is quick enough to beat you on the draw its only fair. You had your chance at the cap and took too long travelling. You could easily run to a bunch of other xenos and have them deal with the marine once they pop out.

    The tl;dr
    Give marines a chance to fight back. The reason why people get so tilted is because of the inability to act on anything. They're too restricted and dependant on outside factors rather than what they can do as a player and that's the real issue here, lack of player agency over the matter in which determines if they get removed from the round or not. If you as a xeno player think its bs that a sadar can just one shot delete you from the round then you should also share that sentiment when it comes to the current capping, hugging and nesting system. Being deleted from a round is not fun either as xeno or marine.

    look I half arsed the solutions bit, anything that can improve player agency and "counterplay" would be neat. As for the round that drove me to making this post? that happened over 3 hours ago... uhh yea I've got nothing better to do for obvious reasons. I haven't played CM for as long or as often as some others but that shouldn't invalidate my concerns/critiques. I've noticed that a lot of players who returned dislike the perma-nesting feature upon hearing about it and I was the same.

    CM is my most played game by a long mile I might play it too much I mean maybe? I feel like I do. But because of it being my most played game I bother to make these long as fuck posts. I really do appreciate the devs and all that shit like fuck me man I know I bitch and I'll always bitch about something but when I make a thread like this on the forums its usually over something that really does bother me about the game and not just a heat of the moment knee jerk reaction.

    au revoir

  2. #2
    Senior Member AlbertBlackwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I wholeheartedly agree with everything here, permanesting is cringe considering it's a bad way of ending your round as a marine that allows zero redemption or revenge. Also, building secure nests was cool and actually having to think about capping.
    Chaotic puppet-master from hell

  3. #3
    Whitelisted Predator ChainsawMullet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    558
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Capture loop is disgustingly shitty for both sides, I'd rather have a system where xenos can take DNR bodies and place them in the pool for larva, and just remove captures entirely. Something like 3 DNR bodies = 1 larva, with it being 1:1 for Smartgunners/Specs and other vital roles.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    194
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    CM will never bring back hive escapes.

  5. #5
    Senior Admin & Whitelist Overseer Fortelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    935
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I know some people don't like permanesting, but I know I enjoy it as a marine. I'd rather be able to ghost, and return to my body if freed rather than sit in the hive, resist out the nest every 10 minutes only to get tackle spammed by a poor XX drone that got bullied into guarding me there. What was funny was when marines would break out, then insta nade half the hive. It was pretty based. Maybe we could keep in the part of perma nesting that lets you ghost, but come back when freed, but then ALSO keep it so you can resist out of nests if you choose you want to stay in your body.
    Salvador Kepplinger - President of Andorra
    LOV3 - The friendly Bean.
    Senior mentor

    Medals:
    Spoiler Spoiler:







  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    69
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If someone suggests that we should put in place mechanics so that sentinels need to sit in the hive neuroing players who are probably afk the whole round, they should be required to volunteer to spend at least 25% of their rounds doing exactly that.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    384
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd rather we remove the entire capture loop, but for now, perma-nesting is fine. Having to sit at the nest for 15 minutes per capture, eyeing their every move because 2 seconds of free time means they can just grenade themselves isn't really what I'd call good gameplay. Now if you also want to bring something like combat hugging and old pain crit back then yeah sure, because then I just break 2 feet and keep you in perma pain crit; but y'all wouldn't want that would you.

  8. #8
    Member ShepTI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    42
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's not so superficial as "this player's time vs this player's time!!!"; we aren't in the stage of the game where carriers can run up to a screeched crowd and instahug everyone for a retarded amount of captures.
    In the case of how easy it was to hug people before, it's a direct correlation of "ease of capture" to "ease of escape", hence why it's a very different situation when you walk into a hugger hole ignorant of it's presence or get tacklespammed by 4 xenos and subsequently hugged. That "squad of 10 people" must have been extraordinarily incompetent.

    The reality is that being captured these days relies on you being alone, making a grave misplay, etc. or other things that can be prevented by you not going alone. I mean, you can go alone, it's really your choice but you know the risks if you get permastunned by a single xeno because they're asymmetrically supposed to be able to capture a lone marine. Anything in the outlier range is queen neuro, screech, etc. or other unfortunate things that could have easily lead to your death, and not capturing.

    Similarly, if you're in the front of a huge hive push and you get tackled + dragged through a door into eggs, what did you expect..? Or any other situation like that? If you see a warrior onscreen, walk offscreen if you're alone. If you see an oppressor, walk out of it's extremely telegraphed pull. If it's so simple for xenos to have this cohesion and teamwork for capping, surely you can take the time to do the same to avoid such a thing.
    I don't understand why it's such a pride blow when you get capped instead of killed to people, you literally just got 2 intented instead of 4 intented and you're out of the round just the same.

    It's boring and frustrating to get captured and it does put you out of the round, but it literally just acts as the same means of permadeath for any marine that could have been slashed, and instead got capped. If we're contributing to the standards of direct time spent vs stolen or whatever from each player, your being captured contributed to 2 new larvas, as well as those "30 minutes" (which is probably longer depending on the status of the hive really) being nonexistent for other people. The most I see out of any permanesting thread is rose tinted glasses of 1/1000 hive escapes for when you could literally be hugged instantly; it's misplaced "revenge" or whatever emotion you held from those rounds because it just doesn't happen anymore.
    Jonathan Hogg/SHP




  9. #9
    Ancient Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    814
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I simply think capping is just entirely shitty and we should remove it for the good of both side. marine dont wanna be taken outta the round and xeno don't wanna watch a grass grow. I always hated capping.

  10. #10
    Whitelisted Synthetic Driker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    121
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ShepTI View Post
    It's not so superficial as "this player's time vs this player's time!!!"; we aren't in the stage of the game where carriers can run up to a screeched crowd and instahug everyone for a retarded amount of captures.
    That still happens though. It literally happened last night and xenos ended up with about 50 in the hive for hijack.

    The mechanics are slightly different, but the results are pretty much the same.
    STOP TRYING TO A HAND WHOLE

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •