User Tag List

Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 106

Thread: State of CM-13

  1. #91
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Too short to make a difference for xenos if ancient xeno would be the same power (or only a bit better) than current general level.
    Too short to justify having uber Ancient xenos, while current "ageless" xenos are supposedly between mature and elder power.
    If you will make it longer, it will promote metarushes - first major battle lost by marines - cadehugging.
    If you will make it longer, it will discourage dying as a beno which will promote metarush - first major battle lost by benos - cavehugging, delayliens and general cowardience from xenos, which will prelong the rounds artificially, in a painfull way which is worse than short rounds.

    Aging of any kind is bad unless both sides get benefits from the same ammount of waiting, which currently is achieved by techwebs where both benos and marines get power as time passes, so it doesn't contribute to rushing, or delaying, untill some broken OP T3 tech will be introduced in near future, then it will be bad again.

    Xeno maturity is FUBAR.
    It would be more than just a little bit better at ancient. Consider current power level as representing a mature xeno. Young would be substantially weaker, on par with the old level of mature perhaps. For most castes, this is obviously suboptimal for engaging with, though for T3 it's not nearly as crippling as the old Young stage would have been.

    I'm going to make a big suggestion here. For the sake of this argument, use Big Red, LV, and Kutjevo as examples for understanding the layout and logistics

    In order to incentivize marines to take and hold ground without blindly rushing the Hive as fast as they possibly can, and to make the actual game part of the experience have more depth than the TDM fest that it boils down to currently, it would be a good idea to have defensible phoron bore holes dotted around the middle portion of the map that marines must secure and construct drills on. Ideally there would be two groups of these, one more toward marine side and one more toward xeno side. These drilling sites would then periodically produce crates of solid phoron that can be sold by Req for a nice profit, or occasionally pried open by medical, science, and OTs to be used for the varying uses that each of those support roles has for it. Do not, I repeat DO NOT fuck with the current Req point balance to compensate, or it will make the marine-controlled mining sites less worth attacking by xenos.

    On the other side of the coin, a Queen or Hivelord would be able to designate the construction some sort of spawning pool on top of these same boreholes provided there is not a drill located there already. The spawning pool would periodically produce burrowed larva up to a soft limit determined by the number of spawning pools currently alive and completed, and a HARD maximum determined by the highest number of marines playing by the time the dropships are ready to take off (with the hive's current population subtracting larva from that limit. The number of spawning pools that can be created is a minimum of 1 so long as there is a Queen (who can designate where hers goes at a distance while ovi'd) and an additional one for every living hivelord the hive has. Once the pool is designated by either the Queen or a hivelord, it requires a set amount of plasma to be stored in it before it completes construction. This plasma is to be given to it by builder caste xenos by interacting with it on help intent. If the queen is dead, however, no new silos can be designated until a new Queen evolves, though existing incomplete ones can still be completed as soon as the timer between death and a new queen being allowed to evo wears off.

    Now, in order to encourage both sides to play for map control respective to each of their strengths, and to encourage interesting side-line skirmishes between smaller groups of marines and xenos, boreholes on the Xeno side of the map should provide double the rate of phoron mined compared to the marine side of the map, since these deposits would not have been excavated nearly as much being so close to the hive. The Marine-side boreholes, on the flip side of the coin, should spawn burrowed larva at twice the rate as xeno-side when a pool is built on them, because the mining efforts on that side have left more phoron crystals and natural tunnels to accelerate larval growth than on the xeno-side ones.

    If this all sounds very familiar, then you've probably been following TGMC's development. I'm the one who pitched more or less this same map control schtick to them something like 2 or 3 years ago back when Crash was the only game mode people played there, instead of distress signal like it is now. They implemented the concept in a way that works for the style of play they have there, though it's not quite the way I suggested it originally (drills are already built and cant be removed, but can be repaired and damaged, and resin silos do not have to be built on boreholes). Point is, I made a suggestion, they implemented a more streamlined version of it, and it changed their Distress Signal mode drastically for the betterment of both Marines and Xenos, so I'm presenting more or less my original suggestion there to y'all here.

  2. #92
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,711
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    snip
    Control points were already tested before on CM and will be added in the future of Techwebs.
    Either way, this doesn't solve shit in that way.
    With, or without control points, its still better to just rush and kill the weaker enemy than wait, create 1000 mini fobs that somebody has to defend and:
    a) Get his ass bored to death, because benos focus on fighting main force and never engage control points.
    b) Get his ass gassed to death, because benos focus on most of their force on those control points.
    c) Get his ass sucked into the void, because if control points will be designed to allow marines win with just holding them, benos will complain that its just a Whiskey Outpost 2.0 and they will cry which will melt the floor tiles around the map, thus venting whole colony.

    Marines don't control the map the way xenos do. Because they are fast, they have teleporters (tunnels), they can disengage at whim, its not marines who decide when to fight, its xenos. This is why control points and fobs are unfun and unbalanced. Benos can at any point attack any part of the map. Sitting in Control point and staring at simple drill/whatever animation is not fun. Just as its not fun to guard FoB when benos don't attack and just as its not fun to guard hosts in hive.

    So in that aging proposition, where current power level is just mature, its totally ass-backwards broken.
    The rule is simple - If benos get Powerfull Ancient T3s before, or shortly after marines arrive, its just broken without massive marine buffs. If they don't get those powerfull Ancient T3s before, or shortly after marines arrive, it promotes metarush - first major battle lost by marines - cadehugging on marine side, or metarush - first major battle lost by benos - cavehugging, delayliens and one single powerfull T3 killing scattered marines who have to scatter to find those xenos who run away.

    TGMC has maturity, but it has minimal changes in beno power. For example Young Defender vs Ancient Defender has only 60 HP more, does 4 more damage, and gets 10 percent points of better armor.
    Nowhere near what you propose of uber ancient aliens and young aliens being of current power.
    REDEMPTION

  3. #93
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    snip
    Moving away from the Maturity idea, which I can concede isn't very enlightened and discussing the map control idea in more detail, I have a few good counterpoints to make.

    First, marines can locate, set traps around, and/or blow up xeno tunnels in order to deny teleport to that location. Sure, Burrowers can dig new ones, but marines can still place static defenses to help with that, which can be very useful if done intelligently. Turrets might get gassed by boilers if they aren't positioned reasonably well, but that's only likely to happen if the Xenos are actively trying to take territory, in which case the main force is probably going to end up un those general areas anyway; that's just how the battle lines might shift. You argue that it's a bunch of minifobs and that's fair, but it also means that marines will have some place *other* than LZ to regroup on as the situation on the ground develops. By having some other place for Xenos to hit when marines lose their momentum that *wont* almost unilaterally cost them the game, there's more chance of back-and-forth battles that both sides are more likely to enjoy, instead of the only viable tactic being a steamroll one way or the other as fast as physically possible.

    Second, I would recommend a few logistical trucks be on the maps where boreholes can exist, so that marines can use them to move up to 12 people around (2 in the cabin, 10 in the back) at a pretty good speed. It's not armed or armored like APCs and it won't protect occupants from acid or (barring the guys in the cabin) friendly fire, but it can also load up to 10 crates of phoron (or any type of metal crate for that matter) to make it far less of a drag to get around the map. People who just want to unga dunga with the main group are going to unga dunga with the main group, and probably have fun doing that. People who would rather chill out and RP/do logistics at FOB/mining sites will probably do that. When there's no pressure on the sites, some of the fobbits can leave them attended by static defenses while the crate count builds up and go do other shit, like relocate to what's being hit or taxi people from FOB to a position near the front lines.

  4. #94
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,711
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    First, marines can locate, set traps around, and/or blow up xeno tunnels in order to deny teleport to that location. Sure, Burrowers can dig new ones, but marines can still place static defenses to help with that, which can be very useful if done intelligently. Turrets might get gassed by boilers if they aren't positioned reasonably well, but that's only likely to happen if the Xenos are actively trying to take territory, in which case the main force is probably going to end up un those general areas anyway; that's just how the battle lines might shift.
    Static defencess are ineffective if unattended. Burrower can create, have destroyed and then create again its tunnel forever, mariens can destroy them as long as they have C4, or enough HEDP nades (if it still is in the game). You can't place those defences everywhere and it takes only one tile hidden in the corner to create a tunnel. Unless marines would literally patrol area around constantly in groups of atleast 4, they are just lurker fodder. Similarly with vents. Yeah, you can weld them, but web of vents has exit point in basically every room of every building on every colony. Sure, you can unwrench them, but that doesn't close it, it creates new exit point.

    All of that goes into the conclusion, that somebody will have to be forced to do nothing whole round and then have 2 minutes of fight that ends up in crushing defeat if he is lucky, otherwise marines win and he is bored even more. On top of that, there is no end of the round FFA arena, so count that boredom times 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    You argue that it's a bunch of minifobs and that's fair, but it also means that marines will have some place *other* than LZ to regroup on as the situation on the ground develops. By having some other place for Xenos to hit when marines lose their momentum that *wont* almost unilaterally cost them the game, there's more chance of back-and-forth battles that both sides are more likely to enjoy, instead of the only viable tactic being a steamroll one way or the other as fast as physically possible.
    Major marine force won't fit into a minifob. Unless you want to make bigass fobs for each and every control point. Which then in turn wastes mats and makes LZ vulnerable. Because what stops benos from avoiding those control points and going for LZ directly? Nothing.
    Also marines don't "just lose their momentum" anywhere. This happens only on chokepoints where they can fairly safely wait, because chokepoints work both ways. The only time when additional fob helps is when marines retreat, which means most of the robust ones are, or will be in next 5 minutes permadead. This in turn changes into cadehugging, but cadehugging small parts of the map, that will generally be encircled and destroyed easly.

    ICE Colony shows how control points work in practice. Ladders and elevators were such control points and where it brought us? 8 hours of boring trench warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    Second, I would recommend a few logistical trucks be on the maps where boreholes can exist, so that marines can use them to move up to 12 people around (2 in the cabin, 10 in the back) at a pretty good speed. It's not armed or armored like APCs and it won't protect occupants from acid or (barring the guys in the cabin) friendly fire, but it can also load up to 10 crates of phoron (or any type of metal crate for that matter) to make it far less of a drag to get around the map. People who just want to unga dunga with the main group are going to unga dunga with the main group, and probably have fun doing that. People who would rather chill out and RP/do logistics at FOB/mining sites will probably do that. When there's no pressure on the sites, some of the fobbits can leave them attended by static defenses while the crate count builds up and go do other shit, like relocate to what's being hit or taxi people from FOB to a position near the front lines.
    Nobody uses and will use trucks to transport shit. They are used to ram T3s.
    Leaving static defences alone is equal to destroying them yourself and then going unga.

    But there is no point in arguing as control points will be implemented in the game no matter what. No phoron bullshit though, just techweb points that nobody cares as its better and easier to rush than to wait an hour to get NVG.
    REDEMPTION

  5. #95
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    snip
    Not all turrets were created equal, but the other problem is that you are arguing with the assumption that these boreholes would be out in the open, instead of being more or less surrounded by rock/ice walls, and would therefore require tons of mats to secure and be easily surrounded and destroyed. This would not be the case. They are enclosed surface-level locations with enough space inside to protect a squad of marines, and multiple entrances and exits. Turrets can and do work as area denial so long as the location they are placed in takes advantage of that turret's strengths and helps shore up against its weaknesses. Even unattended, a mining site with a few well-placed (depending on type) turrets is not going to be solo-killed by anything less than T3, and even then, it would take time because that T3 is going to have to fall back and heal. You also have to understand that it's not going to take all that long for a drill site to pay for itself. The first crate would cover that, and 3 or so more will more than cover anything that was spent on in Req to secure it. Something like 20 minutes at most to be cost-efficient, assuming a crate every 5 minutes and depending on how expensive its defenses are. Half that time if it's built on the Xeno side of the map, because that's a high-risk, high-reward objective.

    If you ram a T3 with the supply truck I'm suggesting, you're going to total the truck. Period. That's also more of an LRP problem, which is kind of on the admins to solve.

  6. #96
    Senior Member CABAL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,711
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    snip
    It doesn't take one T3 and a lot of time. It requires one burrower to teleport behind the turrent and nothing personnel kid it to oblivion in 10 seconds.
    REDEMPTION

  7. #97
    Senior Member special2kira's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    425
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    don't marines usually also try to defend turrets?

  8. #98
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    186
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DerFlammenwerfer View Post
    In order to incentivize marines to take and hold ground without blindly rushing the Hive as fast as they possibly can, and to make the actual game part of the experience have more depth than the TDM fest that it boils down to currently, it would be a good idea to have defensible phoron bore holes dotted around the middle portion of the map that marines must secure and construct drills on. Ideally there would be two groups of these, one more toward marine side and one more toward xeno side. These drilling sites would then periodically produce crates of solid phoron that can be sold by Req for a nice profit, or occasionally pried open by medical, science, and OTs to be used for the varying uses that each of those support roles has for it. Do not, I repeat DO NOT fuck with the current Req point balance to compensate, or it will make the marine-controlled mining sites less worth attacking by xenos.

    On the other side of the coin, a Queen or Hivelord would be able to designate the construction some sort of spawning pool on top of these same boreholes provided there is not a drill located there already. The spawning pool would periodically produce burrowed larva up to a soft limit determined by the number of spawning pools currently alive and completed, and a HARD maximum determined by the highest number of marines playing by the time the dropships are ready to take off (with the hive's current population subtracting larva from that limit. The number of spawning pools that can be created is a minimum of 1 so long as there is a Queen (who can designate where hers goes at a distance while ovi'd) and an additional one for every living hivelord the hive has. Once the pool is designated by either the Queen or a hivelord, it requires a set amount of plasma to be stored in it before it completes construction. This plasma is to be given to it by builder caste xenos by interacting with it on help intent. If the queen is dead, however, no new silos can be designated until a new Queen evolves, though existing incomplete ones can still be completed as soon as the timer between death and a new queen being allowed to evo wears off.
    You could have just said to have the system literally out of TGMC as this is 100% what they have there...

  9. #99
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    11
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    It doesn't take one T3 and a lot of time. It requires one burrower to teleport behind the turrent and nothing personnel kid it to oblivion in 10 seconds.
    If it's only the one turret by itself, sure. If you were going to leave the site unmanned though, it's not going to be just one turret by itself. Also, marines would be alerted to the turret being attacked, so the 2-5 guys in the truck can just swing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fix it again Tony View Post
    You could have just said to have the system literally out of TGMC as this is 100% what they have there...
    They have a streamlined version of it, yes. Who do you think gave TGMC the idea in the first place?

  10. #100
    Senior Member SilentMountain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    212
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's so funny how due to the Dev's obsession with TDM now the /tg/ CM is better at gameplay than actual CM lol.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •