yeah :<<Originally Posted by Bob_Vancleave
yeah :<<
again this is why I complain we kind of doesn't have enough squad roles, sure it'll be extremely fucking redundant if we have roles for basically everything that we even ever need because we're barely even HRP and don't need redundant roles. even at best I'd say we're MAYBE MRP and otherwise LRP. But if I had to make a proposal we could use a squad ordnance technician and squad recon specialist with our own motorcycle.
There seems to be a lack of understanding as to why strong consequences in a game foster strong Roleplay standards.
Consequences, such as death, permanent injuries or long healing times are a basic foundation to slow down game-play and causing a player to pursue alternative methods other than a straight-forward route.
With little repercussions, respawning, cloning or quick to heal injuries you essentially encourage the player to take the most direct path to their directive as the repercussions from this are limited to a minor time-out with a medic.
Why would a player contemplate stealth, or taking a longer route around which might be safer when he could try his luck taking the direct method after all?
Where as implementing stronger repercussions such as permanent injuries or longer healing times (evac to the ship etc) you instill a different mentality into the playerbase. Rather than looking at problems from a one dimensial view the player starts to question alternative methods to achieve their goal as to avoid being taken out of the game. This could be something simple, such as an alternative route, awaiting for strong tactical plan and even roleplaying their way through rather than fighting. This in-turn creates a large branching tree that encourages narratives that aren't linear, suddenly your Team-Deathmatch game has sub-plots going on that most players may not even be aware of.
In addition stronger repercussions, especially medically related foster in-role communication and socialization. A marine being EVACed goes through a multi level of socialization, speaking to a pilot, a doctor and whoever else is dragging him around. This in-turn fosters a whole wide eco-system of roleplay that is hardly acknowledged. It's an organic level of Roleplay, it's placing a player who might not even be a roleplayer into having to roleplay as he must socialize with other players to get himself treated or evacuated.
These were foundational systems that were at one time encouraged and nurtured to organic a healthy socialization structure that players often weren't even aware of but have been lost over-time due to streamlining.
Which is exactly why CM has suffered from inconsistent gameplay for quite a few years now. The foundation of what CM was made upon was not made for this type of gameplay and as such once Combat was stream-lined it caused a cascading failure of other systems. Suddenly Medical became redundant because why go to Medbay when the game will end in 45 minutes? Why bother with Requisitions when the rounds are only 45 minutes? and why have a briefing when rounds are only 45 minutes?
The truth is that it's far easier for a developer to create simplistic straight forward content than it is for them to account for multi-level system. Adding gameplay that foster or encourages all elements of CM has and will always be difficult. It's just difficult to find competent individuals who know what Roleplay is, who know what an Action game is and who are capable of combining both those elements in one.
CM has degraded into a Team-Deathmatch game due to incompetence over the last few years and the failure of select individuals to lead and manage a competent team.
Last edited by Fewher; 05-11-2021 at 12:03 AM.
On the note of 45 minute rounds limiting roleplay, what's the point of latejoining past about 12:20? MPs don't really do much after the marines have deployed, doctors never do anything, MTs don't do anything, OTs MAYBE, and if you're playing a marine, you run into the same problem. Get your gear together, wait for the dropship, arrive, game over.
This is essentially the mentality that bleeds into every player who plays the game now.
Why bother doing this, or playing this, or joining during this or roleplaying when everything just ends so quickly?
So rather than fixing the core problem (streamlined gameplay) you end up with suggestions over years such as "REMOVE MANDATORY BRIEFINGS", "REMOVE REQUISTIONS LINES", "REDUCE MPS", "MAKE HEALING FASTER".
These are a select few examples, but their byproducts of round times being so extensively reduced that people dont want to waste 20 minutes of their game-time getting evacuated back to the ship just to get healed. So the easiest solution in a players mind and the easiest solution for a Developer is to simply cut the content (or reduce it) so it then falls in-line with the new game style.
But as I said in my prior post, by attacking the fundamental foundational features and content... it's had a devastation effect on the over-all game for worse.
this still happens when you lose a limb or have organ damage. when was the last time you played the game
I don't think perma damage needs to be "Brought back". I'm not sure it's ever really gone away, but the tools medics have now basically invalidates doctors.
Broken bones, slap a nanosplint on it and you're good for the rest of the round. IB, bica OD. Organ damage, keep them in sight and pump them full of peridaxon when they need it. Research gets us bonemending and organmending pills too, so why even bother with evacuation?
What we need is to either increase the penalty of our existing permanent damage (higher pain from broken bones, severe bleeding from lost limbs, rapid damage from organ damage), or take some tools away from medics.
Also, if people complain that shipside medical is dead, incentivize returning to the ship somehow. Ban doctors from being anywhere outside the APC, or bring back infections and increase slip chances for surgery performed outside of medbay.
Also, making marines slower by bringing damage back in will also need an equal change to xenos to make them slower. Aging worked, still not entirely sure why we removed it.
Last edited by Urytion; 05-12-2021 at 09:00 AM.
medical is too easy, guy with 500 brute? easy just force feed them some bica and spam your defib on them
medical isnt hard or complex, its certainly TDM style medical
Chaotic puppet-master from hell
how would one make medical fairly challenging while not making it ridiculous for the combat of CM-13?
People don't evac because it's boring.
They don't want to spend 10-20 minutes:
- Traveling back to FOB, hoping they don’t get dragged off by a Runner / Lurker
- Waiting for the PO to cycle
- Limping to medbay
- Waiting for the doctor to stare at body scanner for 2 minutes
- Waiting for the doctor to stare at autodoc for 1 minute
- Waiting for the autodoc to spit them out after 5 minutes
- BONUS: Doctors do surgery manually, so they spend 3 minutes staring at a black screen because anesthetics
- Waiting for the PO to cycle
- Traveling back to the frontline, hoping they don’t get dragged off by a Runner/Lurker
- Finding the frontline again to begin with
When players evac, they alt-tab to watch Youtube or grind gachas during the process. There's no "roleplay". Not anymore.
Medical is already debilitating.
Organ damage already gives permanent pain, reduced hp, and slowdown. Fracs cause heavy slowdown, as just 2-3 fractures allow T3s to walk up and make you their pinata.
Nanosplints don't remove this slowdown. They are good but not that good.
As for Peri, most marines keep trucking on with 20-25 oxygen damage. They don't care for heart damage, and they usually don't eat Peri unless their lungs or livers have literally burst.
If you still want to argue that medical downsides aren't enough, look at facehuggers. They're a ticking timer which gives perma-death and helps Xenos,
and yet: the majority of marines would rather burst than return shipside for surgery.
CABAL is right. Adding more downsides won't incentivize evac, it'll incentivize UNGA or death. Getting hugged does this already.
I've played many hours of slower paced shooters (ARMA, Squad, and Squad-likes). Fewher's points have good intentions, and I've seen the same arguments many times in different games, but they don't fit the reality of gameplay and player psychology.
The truth is, if you give players long downtimes of nothing, they simply alt tab and do something else.
Punishing players with timers doesn't incentivize teamwork, nor does it incentivize slower gameplay -- it incentivizes playing normally and alt tabbing during the timers.
There's better ways to extend rounds and roles. Forcing evac isn't one of them.
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