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Thread: drevenshekel - Rule 2 + CO guidelines

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    drevenshekel - Rule 2 + CO guidelines

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    Wulferion

    Date of Incident
    April 23, 2021

    Your Character Name?
    Faerwald Wulfe

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    drevenshekel

    Accused Character Name
    Wahakahama Windhealer

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    around 21:00 UTC

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Rule 2 + CO guidelines

    Description of the incident:
    I was SEA during an LV round with Dreven as CO. Some time around when briefing was supposed to happen there was a brawl in the hangar (designated as the briefing place) MPs responded to this and several marines were slated for arrest. (People were openly assaulting the MPs and myself, stealing MP equipment and so on) While this was going on i asked the CO to try and get his men in line. Staff took notice of this mini-riot as well since there was an ARES announcement about it. COs response to this was ordering the MPs to vacate the DS and hangar and stop arresting marines, which is an illegal order and was of course refused. (As SEA i informed the CO that such order is illegal on MP comms) As a reaction to this the CO tried to mass pardon all of the marines using MP comms which was of course denied as thats not the propper pardon procedure (and every CO should know this). Before the matter could be settled the DS launched (with or without COs approval i cannot say) and all of the marines deployed avoiding punsihment. There was no briefing to speak of as it was all done via announcements (which is agains CO rulings as well but given the circumstances this point is mute)

    After the deployment the CMP decided to fax HC about the issue and asked me to write the fax regarding CO. During this time the CO inquired about „who is in the brig“ probably making sure none of the marines were actually jailed (however this is purely speculation on my part). After the fax was sent, arrest of the CO was approved by ARES announcement and some of the MPs were sent to arrest the CO. Given the COs position on the front lines this took some time, nearly until the end of the round.

    As a reaction to his arrest the CO ordered marines to „peacefully“ march on the brig during which the round ended and server restarted. This action was in my opinion bordering on LRP (seeing as a captain going against HC decision like that was borderline sedition and would certainly face greater consequences for such action) Furthermore COs were in the past discouraged and even warned when similary trying to avoid IC punishment for breaking WL rules.

    This incident in my opinion shows either a very poor understanding of ML and more importantly CO guidelines and pardon procedure by Dreven or just him knowingly ignoring it because it doesn’t suit him. In either case its something that should be investigated by the council especially since it was not the first occurence of such behaviour.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    Sadly the only screenshot i took was of the ARES announcement. (Chat log in game didn't save the start of the round) But all the necessary evidence will be in the logs, mainly announcements and MP comms.

    ARES arrest announcement stating the charges against CO: https://gyazo.com/66d5a8fa2c64ae040474478eaff3a7f8

    How you would punish the accused:
    WL warning at the very least. The important part is that Dreven should brush up about rules and CO related ML and SOP.

  2. #2
    Commanding Officer Council Member Pahndoomack's Avatar
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    CO Council is on this
    Alberto 'Topper' Staffer
    Sam 'Snake' Creed
    Jack Houser
    Synthetic Jacobs

    Discord Pahndoomak#7127

    Do not go silently into The Night.


  3. #3
    Senior Member Dreven's Avatar
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    I got an ARES announcement for me to calm down the situation brewing in the dropship and so I made the call to order the MP's and SEA to leave. In my experience of marine riots (and I am experienced), if you remove the fuel than the fire won't burn. In the interest of the marines playing the game, the xenos playing the game, the survivors especially, and basically everyone in the round besides the MP players I did what I thought would most effectively allow the round to flow on normally. We were doing a 12:24 launch as I always do, which is mid-late deployment time as is. If I had instead doubled down with the MP's and deployed riot tools to suppress and arrest, then we most certainly would have had a major round disruption take place which woulda delayed the round at the expense of 95% of the players. The game does not revolve around MP's, and ML is not an OOC ruleset, with ARES getting involved as a mini-event I took that as leeway to resolve the situation quickly, and the quickest way was to get the MP's to leave. They had their chance to arrest their criminals, and had been defeated IC, I refuse to allow the game to be derailed for everyone so they can put (more than) a few marines in the brig.

    The mass pardon was of course an illegal order, but I realized that and didn't actually order it. It was more an implication to get the MP's to back down, I would have just gone to brig and pardoned those they arrested legally if push did come to shove. While I could have communicated that better, it is basically a RP thought crime. The end of round shenigans was literally *after* the xenomorph hive had been destroyed, and so I thought we would have a bit of fun. The MP's were right to call for an IC arrest on me, and so my reaction to that was to order a peaceful protest march on the brig to get them to back down. I explicitly gave orders for them not to do any poor escalation or use violence, I thought the entire situation was handled IC in a way that was non-disruptive and fun for both sides.

    The marines and xenos got to play a normal round without a massively late deployment/a potential full scale mutiny because I ordered the MP's to leave. You are effectively putting RP standards over that of the core gameplay experience of most the server, and you got to handle it IC by ordering an arrest on me and playing that out, I don't see why this ever had to be taken to a OOC report.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    I got an ARES announcement for me to calm down the situation brewing in the dropship and so I made the call to order the MP's and SEA to leave. In my experience of marine riots (and I am experienced), if you remove the fuel than the fire won't burn. In the interest of the marines playing the game, the xenos playing the game, the survivors especially, and basically everyone in the round besides the MP players I did what I thought would most effectively allow the round to flow on normally.
    First off, if i remember correctly the ARES announcement offered to lock down the dropship(so it can't launch) until the situation is resolved. And even if it didn't you cannot resolve a ML situation by letting the lawbreakers escape. Ordering MPs to leave is an illegal order and can not only be safely ignored but given what was the reason behind it is actually a ML break. (Which is why the fax was sent to have you arrested) MPs also can't just stop and do nothing when major crimes are being commited. They are OOCly bound to act on it.

    Second off, it was not the MPs who were disrupting the round but the marines. Of course the marines want to deploy as fast as possible but thats not their call, especially since they are the one making these disruptions. They will either have to face the consequences or stop stirring trouble like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    We were doing a 12:24 launch as I always do, which is mid-late deployment time as is.
    12:24 really isn't a late deployment. You can't even launch the ship before 12:22 anyway. If anything standard deployment time is exactly around 12:24 - 12:25. Its not that hard to spend a few minutes on the ship. Yes late deployment is bad for survivors but survivor is a role you really shouldn't pick and expect to live. Not to mention that ICly you don't even know if there are survivors down there and what are they facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    If I had instead doubled down with the MP's and deployed riot tools to suppress and arrest, then we most certainly would have had a major round disruption take place which woulda delayed the round at the expense of 95% of the players.
    Thats a bit of an overstatement there. Yes there probably would be a round disruption but not as large as you might think. Most of the shipside roles can just carry on with their jobs or do something else like they always do. It doesn't affect them at all. Xeno and survivor players would keep each other busy and even then xenos can better the defences and things like that. Its not like this would be a 20 minute affair. And lastly the biggest group that would be affected are the deploying marines which are a no factor here since they are the ones causing the disruption in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    The game does not revolve around MP's, and ML is not an OOC ruleset, with ARES getting involved as a mini-event I took that as leeway to resolve the situation quickly, and the quickest way was to get the MP's to leave. They had their chance to arrest their criminals, and had been defeated IC, I refuse to allow the game to be derailed for everyone so they can put (more than) a few marines in the brig.
    While i agree the game doesn't revolve around MPs the ML certainly plays a huge part in that. Its no an OOC rule set no, yet breaking ML without any reason and attacking MPs trying to arrest a marine is breaking an OOC rule. Rule 2 states that you are supposed to act as a mentaly stable person that would not go against USCM without a good reason. Furthermore ML acts in game as a sort of IC way to keep the peace. If a marine does break ML then its absolutely right that they are arrested and taken to the brig, its an IC punishment.

    Whats umportant for the purposes of this report is that, once again you cannot order the MPs to stop arresting (and as a CO you really should know this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    The mass pardon was of course an illegal order, but I realized that and didn't actually order it. It was more an implication to get the MP's to back down, I would have just gone to brig and pardoned those they arrested legally if push did come to shove.
    Ok, let's be real here. The only reason you say you didn't actually order it is because the MPs were knowledgable enough to know that you can't do a thing like that and didn't let you do it. On the comms it sounded very much like an actual order at the time. Secondly and once again, you can't get the MP's to back down. They cannot back down once they saw a major crime happen. They are required to take action as best they can.

    The fact that you'd even think about going to pardon rioting marines without a thought about what they actually did indicates to me that you don't understand the pardon procedure nor the reason behind why CO even has the power to pardon people. You don't have the pardons to let your marine buddies avoid ML, you have it in case there is a situation when its vital to release a guilty prisoner because the operation relies on it. While it could be used for other reason (such as releasing new players that just didn't understand the rules or stuff like that) its not a tool to let everyone leave the brig because you personally don't believe in ML. Not to mention the fact that those marines you'd pardon are likely to commit another crime and then you'd be arrested with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    The end of round shenigans was literally *after* the xenomorph hive had been destroyed, and so I thought we would have a bit of fun. The MP's were right to call for an IC arrest on me, and so my reaction to that was to order a peaceful protest march on the brig to get them to back down. I explicitly gave orders for them not to do any poor escalation or use violence, I thought the entire situation was handled IC in a way that was non-disruptive and fun for both sides.
    The fact that the round was over does not matter at all here. In CM the RP continues after the round right up until the server restarts. All rules are still in effect even tho the hive is destroyed. You would not risk your career as a captain of the USCM because it was "fun". This breaks Rule 2 again. You admit the MPs are right to call for an arrest on you and yet you try to get them to back down. This once again shows poor understanding of ML in general as well as the MP role even from a CO standpoint. They cannot back down, once your arrest is called then it will happen unless you die on the planet. There is no backing down. ICly the story continues after the round has ended so you would be arrested and tried unless you gone rogue in which case you'd face even worse punishment. And as for the orders to not escalate to violence thats all well and good but we both no it would happen sooner or later. The MPs can't back down from arresting you and marines are generaly trigger happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreven View Post
    You are effectively putting RP standards over that of the core gameplay experience of most the server, and you got to handle it IC by ordering an arrest on me and playing that out, I don't see why this ever had to be taken to a OOC report.
    CM is an MRP server. Certain RP standards are set in the Rule 2 and everyone on the server is expected to follow them. Its not putting RP standards over core gameplay because RP is part of the core gameplay.

    The reason i made this report is because in this round you've not only demostrated that you do not understand the basics of ML and how CO role works within it. You also missused some of your priviledges afforded to you by the whitelist and lastly you acted very LRP playing an HRP role. If a CO applicant attempted to do the things you showed in this round there is a good chance they wouldn't been accepted. As such i believe its prudent for you to brush up on those rules and make better effort in following them as i stated in the original post. Given the fact that you already should have known this you should get a warning for it as well.

    And lastly the very fact that certain MPs decided to not make a report because they feared the OOC retaliation from you and the community around you is another reason i think this should be investigated. You have done similar things in the past and you keep doing them again. Every time you are OOCly contacted about it you brush it off. The official way is the only option left.


    I apeal to the council to consider what the CO is as a role and what should they represent and decide accordingly. If you allow a CO to behave like this, missusing the tools afforded by the WL and ignoring any rules and rulings that does not suit them. If you allow a role whose first words in its description are "Your job is HEAVY ROLEPLAY" to act like this then i question the very existence of the whitelist in the first place.

  5. #5
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    CMP of the round. I think i will primarily focus on adding to the context in which these events occurred, and why some events occurred a certain way.

    Ares de facto gave CMP the power to override the captain and delay the drop if they so wished. While i debated doing this, the biggest factor against it was the lack of mp power to do it successfully and quickly, i believe i had 3 'mps', myself, the warden and the sea (but i never know how much i can count on a sea in such matters as they have mentor restricting their involvement). More mps joined as the round progressed so im not sure of the exact number at every point, but by the end i had 'sufficient'. As such, the idea that ares made an event may be true as a technicality, but the spirit of this 'event' is unambiguously in the opposite direction as the captain chose to give orders in. The ares message predates the captains orders, both for a pardon and for them to stay off the DS.

    While i initially prioritized dealing with the marines, in this case it was Clover, followed by the spec Borak as the primary instigators. There were 3 other marines involved with a significant involvement in the events, but i only recall Bill Torres, again, simply due to they being always involved against the mps whenever a delta gets arrested, i recall these 3 not because they did anything particularity noteworthy in this instance, i just simply interact with them a lot.

    Coincidentally, i did end up complying with the stay off the DS order, but this was not because i saw it as a legal order, or had the intention of obeying it, but rather that another set of events escalated to the point of taking priority. This was 2 nurses who started fighting that i did notice early on, and chose to prioritize DS events first, ship side events 2nd, as main charges were likely equal at that point (assault); but the nurses have since escalated to manslaughter/murder (about when the stay off order was given), and as such they took priority now. This again meant that now i was even shorter staffed, further making me thinking that delaying the drop was just asking for my MW to be mobbed alone if they proceeded against 5 heavily involved people, or alternatively, if they took brig watch, myself being the one mobbed. I had failed for a few minutes to make the arrest on the deltas, because they would just lift each other up or drag them away whenever i did manage to down 1-2 of them at the same time, or i didn't want to outright hit every single marine with a taser (this doesn't mean i didn't hit quite a few, chase was 5-10 minutes long after all, but it was usually from them managing to doge the shots and another marine being behind them in the line of fire, all the chasing was around the DS and hanger briefing, making 0 friendly fire virtually impossible).

    I believe i called for blue relatively early on, but was never granted it. I do think i could have used riot tools regardless, the sea was outright being punched repeatedly by someone at some point on the ds. The captain was physically near for almost all of this too due to them being in brief and deploying on the first drop. To this end i think even a BE was plausible if the captain wished to pursue this route, as it fulfilled at least 1 of the criteria, a threat to someone while in the captains presence, and possibly threat to the operation given the ares announcement about delaying the DS, and these events happening during brief, forcing brief to be done over comms.

    Between, the pardons, lack of blue, and stay off order, and checking to see if there were any prisoners, the captain clearly intended to run interference against the mps, and using their co status and powers to achieve it. They personally wanted to unga planet-side with the marines, as is their usual leadership style as co. However as they themselves are not ml bound OOC, and outrank the CMP both in rank and in ml rank, they seem to be free to do so if they wish, unless there is a CO guideline that says otherwise that im not aware of.

    I then gather my mps and sea to brig to coordinate and discuss what happened as we were all often LOS split despite being in general vicinity during the previous events, and i didn't outright say it on mp coms that i was considering a fax for HC for the CO's arrest, unless there were objections to it by the sea or mw, but i felt that the sea kept a closer account co's actions, so i wanted to consult with them either way (the whole medbay death/murder had be focused on that). Im sure the captain suspect a fax regardless. My little meeting gets cut a bit short by HC contacting me for a report, i think this was prompted by me being a bit hush hush about it over the radios. This takes an abnormally long time as we had to discuss who saw what and what happened, i had 5 warrants + co just from my pov in the end, but im sure the mw and sea may have had people i didn't list too. plans for multiple faxes were made, but to keep this breifer ill cut this part short. Only the sea's draft was ICly sent, and only i know that this part is a bit more messy. (im only mentioning this is to aid anyone pulling logs in the eventuality this ends up being desired, they may simply pretend the sea draft is the only one and the rest were never made, as long as they include the ares announcement stating the co's charges shortly afterwards)

    At this point i have enough mps for planet side arrests, i order these to occur. none are successful as far as i recall.

    End of round happens (marines major), and the captain now is basically asking the marines to protect him from the ic arrest, they make 2 noteworthy public messages on this. one is to peacefully march with them, and another that if any mp does anything, its the mps fault if the marines retaliate (or something to that effect). Notably, i understand it as, don't be the first to shoot, but do make sure im not arrested. The messaged are vague enough that different players may understand it differently, however, this is in the context of a round where the co outright protected 5 marines from jail despite them being unambiguously guilty. The CO protected them publicly, though announcement rather than just mp coms, tho even the mp coms part, they would have been on the ds, and next to the marines, plenty being close enough to hear his messages. This guarantees a loyalty to him, that allows him to completely avoid the IC charges he got earlier for their interference, and the marines know that they will doge assault and interference charges though pardons if necessary, and through the guaranteed interference of their fellow marines to avoid punishments themselves, and a few more that would like to just dunk on mps regardless of consequences.

    During the riot/protest my orders were to gear up for a riot and gather in brig, and some mps took the initiative to lock down cic and brig (i think i did brig). I dont think the round would have lasted long enough for any serious events to occur if i simply delayed rather then swarm the DS, but i didn't have enough forces or knowledge of who to fight to take the initiative and swarm so defensive play was the only tactical choice i had on this. I did consider to fax hc for sedition charges on the co too, they already had pending NoD charges and the lesser ones approved, so realistically only sedition mattered in regards to their arrest immunity. The fax could easily have been sent after their arrest too in this particular case due to them already being cleared to server 25 minutes due to their previous charges, plenty of time to draft another fax for the 1 extra new charge. Weather this charge would have been granted or not, i cant say for sure, and would depend in part in what was going to happen during the riot, it was a charge i was on the fence about.

  6. #6
    Dev Team naut's Avatar
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    CO Council has decided to issue a formal warning to Dreven for the issues in this report (and the other) regarding the mentioned issues with Marine Law understanding and usage.

    Along with https://cm-ss13.com/forums/showthrea...ole-Guidelines this report will be marked as resolved.
    RADM/CDRE Samantha 'Sammy' Maverick
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    I'm just someone trying her hardest to not get everyone horribly killed.

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