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Thread: ExGame - Bit of a gray area. Rule 11?

  1. #1
    Junior Member Atebite's Avatar
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    ExGame - Bit of a gray area. Rule 11?

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    Atebite

    Date of Incident
    May 9, 2021

    Your Character Name?
    Brock Brogan

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    ExGame

    Accused Character Name
    William Frost

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    02:29 UTC+1, 19:29 CT

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Bit of a gray area. Rule 11?

    Description of the incident:
    I was playing delta SL the round in question. At the start of the round, the CO announced that only british holidays are to be honored. Brock is my batshit insane patriot character and I responded by calling a strike until the 4th of July was reinstated as a holiday. I thought that it'd end no longer than 5 minutes later with a throwaway announcement that the 4th of July is now back in place.

    I took my strike to the mess hall with a couple of other deltas and kept calling for the 4th of July to be reinstated while at least one MP was looking and paying attention pretty much the entire time. I kept this going until I was bwoinked for not deploying as SL. I apologized and instantly went to Normandy to deploy, trying to convince the other marines that it was more important to go groundside and help the other marines.

    Pretty much right as I strap into the chair in Normandy, MPs flashbang the dropship and arrest me. I didn't resist arrest but the other marines didn't take it well and started a tiny impromptu mutiny. I tried to get them to knock it off by telling them to stop over squad comms, but ultimately it had to be put down with a MOOC message.

    In the brig, the arresting MP, Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden, lets me know that the CO had ordered:

    1. That I cannot deploy
    2. That I should be arrested for desertion

    Obviously, this is a catch 22. I was first put in the communal brig, then almost immediately moved to perma (allegedly on the CO's orders). I tried going the RP route about it since frankly, I wasn't getting back in the round at that point anyways. So I faxed HC about it but got no reply.

    A couple of minutes later, the warden, Sebastian 'Vitriolic' Hale, comes up and asks if what I want for my last meal. Apparently the CO had now ordered that I should be executed. I demanded an appeal from the CMP, Cassandra Reed, who then claimed that the arrest order had come while I was still in the mess hall. I don't know if this is correct but I don't believe it to be considering there were MPs outside watching and I wasn't arrested until after I went to the dropship. During the appeal, Hayden claimed they didn't arrest me in the mess hall because there were too many of us, but they also had no problem arresting me when the exact same marines were with me on the dropship.

    The only thing that saved me from being executed was that a mutiny happened just after my appeal to the CMP. This was a fine mess, but I expect a CO to not catch 22 people into executions.

    I want to end this by saying that I understand that this went way too far and that I'm sorry for the truckload of borderline grief that this caused. It was never my intention for what was supposed to be a joke to go so far as an actual rule-breaking mutiny. It was only intended as a bit of character RP before dropping.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    The majority of these logs are snipped to catch the gist of every individual situation.

    Frost announces british holidays only:

    Command Announcement

    As long as I am CO, we are having british holidays.

    - Sent from USCM Command Tablet

    I react to the british holiday announcement:

    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] yells, "BRITISH?!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] shouts, "WHAT THE FUCK!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] says, "THE BRITS WERE CLOSER TO THE SOVIET COMMIE UNION THAN THE US OF A EVER WAS"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] says, "THIS IS SOME COMMIE FUCKHEAD BULLSHIT"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] exclaims, "What next? Will they BAN the FOURTH OF JULY?!"
    LT. John Lebird [Delta (SO)] says, "Brock as it stands, 4th of july is banned"

    Command Ship Announcement

    Reminder, per the CO's commnad we are only allowed to celebrate british holidays That means 4th of july is banned. I have already written HC regarding this, I advice you do the same

    Signed by,
    Lieutenant John Lebird

    Me announcing a strike until the 4th of July is reinstated:

    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] shouts, "WE ARE NOT DEPLOYING UNTIL THEY LEGALIZE THE FOURTH OF JULY!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] exclaims, "WE WANT THE FOURTH OF JULY BACK AND WE WANT IT NOW!!!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] shouts, "EVERYBODY TO THE MESS HALL!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Command (Delta SL)] yells, "COMMAND, DELTA IS OFFICIALLY ON STRIKE UNTIL YOU REINSTATE THE FOURTH OF JULY OFFICIALLY!"

    I protest in the mess hall:

    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "THEY WOULD HAVE US PAY TAXES AND SURRENDER OUR CROPS TO THE COMMIE GOVERNMENT MACHINE!"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "I already see cowards here, afraid of deployment"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "You call THIS desertion? WHAT ABOUT THE CO COMMITING SEDITION BEFORE ALL OF OUR EYES?!"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "REINSTATE THE FOURTH OF JULY AND WE DEPLOY"

    I then get bwoinked by Schalkguy and immediately stop the strike to go deploy:

    SSGT. Brock Brogan says, "Wait..."
    SSGT. Brock Brogan says, "There's a voice"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "THE VOICE OF A THOUSAND DEAD MARINES"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "TRUE AMERICANS WHO WILL DIE IF WE DO NOT DEPLOY"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "WE WILL NOT GIVE UP ON THE FOURTH OF JULY BUT WE WILL NOT ABANDON OUR FELLOW MEN"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "THE VOICE IN MY HEAD HAS CALLED ME TO A GREATER GOOD"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "AND THAT IS TO KILL *CONFIRMED* COMMIES GROUNDSIDE"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "I HAVE PRAYED TO THE GODS AND THE GODS WISH FOR US TO DEPLOY"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "WE WILL SHOW THEM"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "WHAT THE FOURTH OF JULY MEANS TO US"
    Brock Brogan broadcasts, "AND WE WILL SHOW THEM WHY IT SHOULD BE REINSTATED"

    Dropship gets flashbanged. I'm arrested. After this I ahelp Schalkguy back because I thought they had spoken to everyone else to tell them that it's taken care of:

    BANG
    Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden blinds Brock Brogan with the flash!
    SSGT. Brock Brogan shouts, "I AM DEPLOYING!"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan exclaims, "WHAT IS THIS UNAMERICAN COMMIE SHIT?!"

    Marines who gathered around me then began beating on the MPs. I was still writing ahelps about the arrest. Afterwards I tell delta to knock it off over comms:

    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] says, "MEN YOU NEED TO CALM YOUR FUCKING ASSES, THESE MPS ARE GOD-FEARING MARINES, NOT COMMIES"
    SSGT. Brock Brogan [Delta (SL)] says, "SET YOUR PETTY DIFFERENCES ASIDE, DEPLOY AND HELP OUR FELLOW MARINES FIGHT WHATEVER MENACE IS DOWN THERE"

    In processing. This is where I realize that I'm being catch 22'd:

    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Well"
    SSGT. Titus Hill asks, "What are all the crimes?"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "So"
    You are trying to remove Brock Brogan's Brock Brogan's ID Card (Delta Squad Leader).
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Desertion"
    Brock Brogan says, "No"
    Brock Brogan says, "I want to remind you"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "CO wanted you apprehended"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "You took too long"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Refusing to follow orders"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "You went for 2nd drop"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "After getting bored of striking"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Making 5 marines not deploying when able to"
    Brock Brogan says, "Refusing orders, sure. Desertion? Fuck no."
    SSGT. Titus Hill says, "CO ordered it."
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "CO orders to mark you for desertion"
    Brock Brogan says, "The CO cannot "order" that I have commited a crime"
    SSGT. Titus Hill says, "He can order you charged."
    ...
    Brock Brogan says, "If he could he could fucking run around and say "you are hereby charged with sedition" over nothing and execute them"
    ...
    ARES v3.2 [Almayer] states, "BRIG REPORT: Brock Brogan has been jailed for Desertion, Insubordination."

    I'll leave out the appeal to HC because it was never responded to. I ahelped once I realized the fax wasn't gonna get a response.

    I get to know I'm being executed:

    Tom Hendriks [Almayer (Delta Mar)] says, "CMP"
    Tom Hendriks [Almayer (Delta Mar)] asks, "Can I watch the execution?"
    LT. Sebastian 'Vitriolic' Hale asks, "What would vous like to drink, eat, and perhaps a cigarette?"
    ...
    LT. Sebastian 'Vitriolic' Hale asks, "So vous deny all meals, and drinks, and smokes for the last meal?"
    Brock Brogan asks, "Last meal?"
    Brock Brogan asks, "I'm sorry?"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Didnt you..."
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden asks, "Hear announcement..?"
    Brock Brogan asks, "No?"
    LT. Sebastian 'Vitriolic' Hale says, "Capitaine issued an execution for 13:00, but we stopped the procedure till we got the reply from HC or ten minutes passed."
    LT. Sebastian 'Vitriolic' Hale says, "It has now been 12 minutes."

    I appeal to the CMP:

    Brock Brogan says, "Right."
    Brock Brogan says, "Hear me out."
    Brock Brogan says, "I protested over the fourth of july shit. It got out of hand."
    Brock Brogan says, "I heard A VOICE IN MY HEAD telling me that was wrong"
    Brock Brogan says, "And immediately went to Normandy to deploy"
    Brock Brogan says, "When I strapped in, I was flashbanged and arrested by Hayden"
    Brock Brogan points to Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden
    Brock Brogan says, "In the brig"
    Brock Brogan says, "She told me that the CO had given orders to refuse me to deploy"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Dont forget"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "I asked you"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "To come"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Peacefully"
    Brock Brogan says, "I have been charged with desertion."
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "First"
    Brock Brogan says, "Meaning:"
    Brock Brogan says, "I wanted to deploy"
    Brock Brogan says, "I got on the dropship"
    Brock Brogan says, "The CO ordered that I cannot deploy"
    CDR. Mitchell 'Bull' Hardy says, "To have someone removed."
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "All right. Your desertion chage stemmed from your earlier refusal to deploy."
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Yes."
    CDR. Mitchell 'Bull' Hardy says, "Is bad."
    Brock Brogan says, "Then they ordered me arrested for desertion"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Actually the desertion charge came up before you gave up"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "So"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "You took"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "A bit long"
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Everything that came after that was irrelevant as far as I"m concerned."
    Brock Brogan says, "Refusal to follow orders? Sure. But I was literally on the dropship"
    Brock Brogan says, "And the CO bars me from deploying THEN orders me arrested"
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "No. Yuo were ordered arrested way before that."
    Brock Brogan says, "So why am I being executed"
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Your desertion charge was for your "protest" in the first place. Before it got violent."
    Brock Brogan says, "This started with a 50 minute brig timer, then perma"
    Brock Brogan says, "And now it's a fucking execution"
    Brock Brogan says, "Because the CO is catch 22-ing me into desertion"
    ...
    Brock Brogan says, "I literally could not do anything"
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "You were brought here because the arresting officer made a mistake."
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Also."
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Again."
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Stems from your "protest"."
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Not being arrested on the DS."
    Brock Brogan says, "Then why was I not arrested"
    Brock Brogan says, "In the mess hall"
    Brock Brogan says, "When I was making speeches"
    Brock Brogan says, "For five minutes or so"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "Simple"
    Brock Brogan says, "While TWO MPS watched"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "I had no backup"
    SSGT. Katherine 'Catgirl' Hayden says, "And you were 5 there"
    Brock Brogan says, "The timeline doesn't add up"
    LCDR. Cassandra Reed says, "Does that really matter? We were handling multiple cases at the same time."

    Don't think the rest is relevant. Mutiny happened shortly after this.

    I have full chat logs including ahelps. Let me know if you want them in their entirety.

    How you would punish the accused:
    Just a warning.
    Last edited by FortyPercent; 05-21-2021 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Added ckey of accused

  2. #2
    Moderator silencer_pl's Avatar
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    I was CMP in this round as mentioned. There were multiple things going on that round along with a returning CO that was clearly a bit rusty around ML/SOP issues, but at no point did I personally see anything that would imo require action by the WL Council or the admins.

    Here is how things unfolded from my perspective:

    - Your arrest for desertion was ordered after you publicly tried to "strike" the CO's holidays order. This happened while I was busy dealing with a murder investigation unrelated to your case, however I clearly remember you saying that you refuse to deploy until the holidays were reinstated.

    - We had 2 fairly new MP players that round and as far as I can tell, the player that ultimately arrested you waited until they had backup, wisely deciding not do try and snag you near a dropship and other marines. It was only after she was joined by the CO and I believe another marine is that they moved in, then in the dropship, and arrested you for desertion after flashbanging the dropship.

    This was actually reported to me by another MP as a possible SOP breach (the MP in question was concerned about the indiscriminate flashbangs) and ultimately led me to interview the MP in question, clear up how/where to use flashbangs, but ultimately I did not find her at fault. ICly the way that this was reported was that multiple marines were clearly getting ready to stop her and the other MP from carrying out their duty and flashbang use was warranted. Had I been talked about that by anyone other than the MPs, I would suggest they fax HC, but as we know things didn't exactly work out that way.

    - As mentioned at the same time we were dealing with multiple other issues: An SO was also arrested for sedition for using the public broadcast system to undermine the CO's authority and needed to get an appeal, plus the murder incident mentioned earlier that led to multiple warrants being issued after some investigating.

    From what I can tell the MP that arrested you made a mistake and put you into the common room instead of perma. Something we rectified when the CO came to the brig. I actually remember asking multiple times were you offered the right to an appeal and either were informed that you denied one, or just asked you myself.

    - After you wrote a letter appeal that we faxed, the CO announced the plant to execute you and we started to move down the checklist for that. I had a quick conversation with the CO about this and their argumentation for this was sound: They wanted you executed because the "protest" you staged turned violent and your continued presence on the ship would only make things worse. As the announcement is made is when you started to demand an in-person appeal.

    From what I can tell what happened was your "strike" was very quickly turning violent and since this was the start of the round, you were told by a mod/admin to cut it out and chose to deploy. This did not absolve you from the IC consequences of refusing to deploy either, however the rest of your squad was still under the impression that you were being executed for the catch-22 situation you describe. I had by that point explained to you that it was not the case and your desertion charge was applied for your earlier "strike". I have no idea if this was not explained to you properly during brigging (I was told it was, I believe I was handing the SO appeal while you were brigged) or what, but I saw in the various ooc channels after this round that the accusation that led to what followed was based on that misconception that was never explained to anyone. I honestly don't think anyone asked at that point.

    - Somewhere at this point the CO made a mistake in pardoning the SO and had to reverse his decision after realizing he outstepped his authority. This possibly added to the confusion.

    - Your sudden demand for an in-person appeal stretched out the prep time for your execution by a good 10 minutes. Ultimately I denied it and continued moving down the execution checklist.

    - Literally moments later the mutiny said hello by C4ing the wrong perma cell (Helpfully ARES signalled the mechanical start of the mutiny just as the brig was exploding. He was a bit late is what I'm saying) and knocking out the poor SO also there, things got bloody very quickly. Since a good part of the mutineers were charging the brig instead of the CIC, I was tied down at the northern part of it where several mutineers were defeated by a shocked door. At some point during that exchange, you or the SO in perma snuck away, grabbed two tacshotties from the now blown apart armory and tried to PB me as I was pushing the mutiny out of the brig with the help of the other MPs and the real MVP of that choke point - the aforementioned shocked door. At any rate putting down someone in a poisoner suit is the last interaction with a prisoner that I remember that round.

    - We managed to keep the brig long enough for Bravo to come up and take out the rest of the mutiny in the CIC which was being held by another group. At that point most MPs were dead and being offered aid at the brig, while I made sure the CO is secure in the CIC, had a chat with the Bravos there and headed back for the Brig to try and make sense where all the prisoners were.

    Round ended with a marine major shortly thereafter.

    This was it. While the initial SOP change for British holidays was maybe questionable form an IC standpoint, I honestly thought the CO was joking and was surprised at how fast things deteriorated, although judging by some of the reactions after the round in OOC and the discord, a fair share of players wanted to just shoot at some MPs which could explain the rapid escalation of the whole thing. I was mostly annoyed that one of the two mentioned MPs that were new to the role permad as a result of the mutiny but luckily the round ended right after that so its not like they missed much.

    Again, yes the CO was clearly rusty. But at no point did I get the impression they were being intentionally shitty, they seemed to go out of their way to run the operation while dealing with all of the crap thrown at them shipside (to be fair it was due to their own decisions, but well that's the CO role in a nutshell) and in fact when they did outstepped their authority they were more than willing to listen to feedback and reversed their decisions when they realized they made a mistake. If anything, they were actually pretty good at asserting their command but also listening to what we were telling them.

  3. #3
    Whitelisted Captain ExGame's Avatar
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    Hello, I was the CO.

    I don't have anything to add besides by opinion since all events already have been listed here. But you seem to think that just because you went to deploy after a moderator told you to means you suddenly can't be arrested for your earlier actions anymore. That's like kidnapping a MP and then letting them go at some point and wondering why you later still get arrested for illegal confinment. If you really don't know why you weren't already arrested in the mess hall, then.. come on, think.. we all know what happens if MPs try to arrest a marine between a squad notoriously trigger-happy against MPs.

  4. #4
    Junior Member Atebite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExGame View Post
    If you really don't know why you weren't already arrested in the mess hall, then.. come on, think.. we all know what happens if MPs try to arrest a marine between a squad notoriously trigger-happy against MPs.
    I want to remind you that, as I wrote in the original post, the exact same marines were with me when I was arrested on the dropship. So I don't see how this logic makes any sense.

    My main frustration here is that even after this issue was seemingly resolved OOC, which you were aware of, you ordered me executed even if I did a 180 and even tried to help you defuse the situation. I mentioned multiple times in the brig that I could understand being charged with refusing to follow orders or something less strict, even before my perma was escalated to execution. I was not surprised when I got arrested, but I was surprised when I learned I was getting executed. Please try to see how from my perspective, being taken out of the round to be executed was a massive overreaction after I was ready to put everything behind me and play like nothing had happened.

  5. #5
    Member Copper Wilson's Avatar
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    Delta spec here wanted to add stuff from my POV quick
    Quote Originally Posted by silencer_pl View Post
    - We had 2 fairly new MP players that round and as far as I can tell, the player that ultimately arrested you waited until they had backup, wisely deciding not do try and snag you near a dropship and other marines. It was only after she was joined by the CO and I believe another marine is that they moved in, then in the dropship, and arrested you for desertion after flashbanging the dropship.

    This was actually reported to me by another MP as a possible SOP breach (the MP in question was concerned about the indiscriminate flashbangs) and ultimately led me to interview the MP in question, clear up how/where to use flashbangs, but ultimately I did not find her at fault. ICly the way that this was reported was that multiple marines were clearly getting ready to stop her and the other MP from carrying out their duty and flashbang use was warranted. Had I been talked about that by anyone other than the MPs, I would suggest they fax HC, but as we know things didn't exactly work out that way.
    The MP in question who flashed us in DS 2 flashed us while we were all strapped in going ready to go down. In fact if i recall there were more of us flashed in the DS then if she had done it in R&R, as other marines from other squad where there too. While we did chase the MP out of the DS to hanger ladders below CIC some of the other guys moved and shot the fuel tank to try and blow the walls and door to get him back, this didn't work at all. I ran off and hide in a locker and waited for it to be safe to come out. When it was i pulled MP Jean aside and told him what had happened, starting from the CO banning the 4th of July, to our protest to the shit on the DS and the poor attempt of trying to get the SL back, and that all this was cause the CO wanted to celebrate British holidays and not American ones. Which even IC is bad if you ask me since we are the United States Colonial Marines on the USS Almayer.
    On a side note I do wish to add OCC that I am sorry for the people who I incarcerated to death during the mutiny. it was the best failed mutiny I might add.

  6. #6
    Member Copper Wilson's Avatar
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    Sorry forgot to add, but while were in the R&R I we did ask the MP to fax HC about the CO banning the 4th of July and such, as we felt the CO has no power to do this unwarranted action. As far as we know the MPs did not do this, or as far as I can recall all but jean who I spoke to even acknowledged it.

  7. #7
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    Speaking as the SO arrested, I have my own complaint that my charge of sedition was unfounded. Per Marine Law Sedition is;

    "To engage in actions or refuse to follow orders as to overthrow or usurp the legitimate command structure. Creating a massive threat to the ship without the knowledge and approval of the Commander falls under sedition. "

    Encouraging marines to write High Command in protest of banning the Fourth of July is in no way overthrowing or usurping the legitimate command structure. High Command sits on top of the command structure. If your superior officer has done something you feel is illegal, you write to the people above them.

  8. #8
    Whitelisted Captain ExGame's Avatar
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    Your announcement is pretty much what kicked off the entire 4th of July protests though. American holidays being banned was never being mentioned until you did, after that the marines starting rioting after getting the idea that 4th of July is banned from your announcement. I think that using announcements to tell all marines to write a fax to HC to get the CO removed before even the first drop is very different from just writing a fax to HC yourself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExGame View Post
    Your announcement is pretty much what kicked off the entire 4th of July protests though. American holidays being banned was never being mentioned until you did, after that the marines starting rioting after getting the idea that 4th of July is banned from your announcement. I think that using announcements to tell all marines to write a fax to HC to get the CO removed before even the first drop is very different from just writing a fax to HC yourself.
    Please point to the part of the announcement that said "FAX HC TO GET THE CO REMOVED"

  10. #10
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    I'll be pulling the logs over the next few days, and once I get my forum perms I'll also add the proper ckey to the initial post.
    Last edited by FortyPercent; 05-20-2021 at 08:51 AM.
    Robert 'DangerZone' Hale and the incognito legion

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