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Thread: Unknown - CO guidelines - pardons

  1. #1
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    Unknown - CO guidelines - pardons

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    ito726

    Date of Incident
    June 5, 2021

    Your Character Name?
    Kiara Black

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    Unknown

    Accused Character Name
    Sergio Stone

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    round ending at 19:30 uk time, so approx 18:30 for incident.

    What rule(s) were broken:
    CO guidelines - pardons

    Description of the incident:
    I will be adding some extra info for the context in which the issue happened. The reason for this PR is that there was no in-round resolution primarily due to a lack of mods (with fax powers) for most of the round. The CO Sergio Stone is the only person being reported even if i will mention others, if there are any other incidents i believe the have been dealt with in the round itself so if they get mentioned, they are here only for context only.


    James 'Jailbrid' Cooper (MT) and i believe Harvey 'meta' Singe (Alpha Scout Spec), had a small verbal dispute which then escalate to fight in brief. The nature of said fight is in the form of knife throwing and catching. Naturally they hit at least another person. This gives others the idea to play this game too, and Ethan 'Crusader' Weiss and Rob Warraker start playing it among themselves too. I believe they were both of the rank of PFC's too, but im not sure at the time of wrting this. One of the 2 new participants hits the Delta Spec (and possibly others too). The 2 MPs 'chase' 3 out of the 4 participants with the spec being given special consideration due to them at lest having the luck or sanity of not throwing in a direction where they might have hit a non-participant (they do fuck up James a bit though, but hes one of the main participants and investigators of the fight). CO probably witnesses most of this as it happened in brief. James and Rob end up in Medbay where they get cuffed by the CMP Kiara Black, Ethan gets arrested by the other MP (forgot name) somewhere else and brought to brig. James escapes somehow while the CMP was with them waiting for the MP to get there, leaving only rob and Ethan to actually get arrested. The MP was busy in brig with Ethan and the CO discussing something, presumably the charges. I set the charges to be disorderly conduct for all 3 and 2 of them got resisting arrest as well. This is very much so on the lower end of what is possible to charge with spec even getting away without any. While in processing the 2 guys who were still in custody, the CO decides they are pardoned and are to be released as i forget his exact reasoning but it was along the lines of 'this is too minor'. The CMP decides to follow his orders, despite the relatively minor procedural mistake of the prisoners not even being fully processed (charges wont be reflected in jas due to this, as they don't exist there), as all MPs and perps were informed. The CMP informed the CO that they will fax on their way out though the exact reason was not specified. There was no announcement later regarding the pardons as far as i know. The Fax basically summarizes the pardons and procedural mistakes, requesting a warrant for NoD on the procedural stuff, and questioning the suitability of the CO as a CO due to lack of judgment in issuing such pardons. The tone of the fax is very harsh as its IC.

    Later in the round James gets eventually caught and is charged with Desertion (they did a bit of of a tour of the front-lines) and the 2 pending charges of Resisting Arrest and Disorderly Conduct. The captain is involved a bit here but nothing particularly noteworthy happens due the existence of the capital crime.

    The main unresolved issues here are the usage and reasons behind the pardons for Rob and Ethan. Given they were not crucial for the operation, the charges were already on the lenient side. And the CO's judgment of weather or not these people, firstly deserve a pardon, and weather they are likely to behave if one was given. Ignoring any meta considerations about the players involved, simply based on their actions in the round alone, which i believe the CO has witnessed first had, there is no reason to believe they would behave, especially when you account for the resisting arrest charge.

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    Logs if necessary.

    How you would punish the accused:
    No Clue.

  2. #2
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    As experienced by me on the round on the hangar briefing area, these people were not fighting, they were throwing knives at each other with the intent of catching them, and proceeding to fail at catching them several times.
    Removing people from the round for making mistakes makes no sense, and it's a thing MPs often do, you're supposed to stop griefers and assist in certain events, not ruin people's round for being dumb, maybe even eventually making them quit the server because of your bullshit.
    There are no meta considerations to be had here, as i don't even know the people who were arrested, Sergio just sides with marines very often.
    Truly, i forgot the announcement of the pardons for them two as i had to coordinate the round.
    The fax wasn't answered IC even when there were several administrators already on the server, meaning this pardoning issue isn't a such a big problem.
    Captains hold their right of pardoning any minor crimes and misdemeanors.

  3. #3
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    I don't contest the meta considerations bit, such considerations should not be made icly. (I mentioned it because the players involved are people most mp players recognize, its more relevant for mods looking into it, for them to get an idea of likely intent, not as proof of anything)

    Im sure the mods/administrators will clarify the reason on the fax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stobarico View Post
    Captains hold their right of pardoning any minor crimes and misdemeanors.
    This is what i have have an issue with. As an ML clarification, both Assault with a Deadly Weapon (this was not charged, but could probably have been under a criminal negligence interpretation) and Disorderly Conduct are not Minor Crimes, they are Major Crimes, as is Resisting Arrest. I am unclear if you are referring to their crimes as 'minor' in the ml sense or minor as in insignificant. Either way i disagree with the idea of it being minor.

    Additionally, and more importantly, the CO does not have unlimited power of pardon, as you imply. From ML "The Captain may exceptionally pardon criminals by name, and which crimes they are being pardoned for if they believe it is in the best interests of the operation". This test imo is failed simply due to the unimportance of a single pfc. Additionally From the CO Rulings "Avoid using pardons for non-critical personnel." again this clause is explicitly broken, in both spirit and text. And thirdly, from both ML and CO Rulings. "Pardons should be used sparingly. If a pardoned prisoner commits a crime after being pardoned the CO will be held responsible and charged accordingly. ", this clause is broken in spirit, marines that throw knives in the middle of brief, after someone who wasn't even participating was injured because of if it no less then 10 seconds prior, can not be thought of as not likely to commit more crimes in the future.

  4. #4
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    All members of the corps are to be fighting unless they are expressively sabotaging it, it is not up to you to decide who my Captain thinks is necessary to the operation. "Pardons should be used sparingly", it was only used for those marines in that round, and they did not commit any more crimes in the future.

  5. #5
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    As an mp, i am all but obligated to so, as per ML, which i have to follow as server rules. From ML "If any MP thinks the pardon was wrongfully done they should inform High Command about it as well as the CO Council. ".

  6. #6
    Whitelisted Captain LilPenpusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stobarico View Post
    you're supposed to stop griefers and assist in certain events, not ruin people's round for being dumb, maybe even eventually making them quit the server because of your bullshit.
    MPs aren't there to stop griefers. That's something that Admins and Mods do, because it's an OOC issue.

    MPs are literally FORCED to enforce Marine Law, which frankly includes assault with a deadly weapon and more. I don't have much to stay on this report but this understanding of Military Police and their role and duties is rather iffy at best.
    Lance Corporal Misti Rockwell, Squad Medic (Alpha/Bravo).

    Synthetic Unit 'Amber'.


    Captain Misti Rockwell, USS Yokosuka, 2nd Division, 2nd Battlegroup, 3rd Fleet.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misti Rockwell View Post
    MPs aren't there to stop griefers. That's something that Admins and Mods do, because it's an OOC issue.

    MPs are literally FORCED to enforce Marine Law, which frankly includes assault with a deadly weapon and more. I don't have much to stay on this report but this understanding of Military Police and their role and duties is rather iffy at best.
    MPs aren't supposed to ruin people's round for dumb shit like they usually do (Including this one), most of the times they act like self entitled biggots because they are pretty much immune to admin rulings as it's always treated as an "IC issue". This affirmation i'm making is UNDENIABLE, their long running fame for being like this is clear, and this CMP in particular has been complained about several times.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ito726 View Post
    As an mp, i am all but obligated to so, as per ML, which i have to follow as server rules. From ML "If any MP thinks the pardon was wrongfully done they should inform High Command about it as well as the CO Council. ".
    You were already arresting them only for disorderly conduct, which wasn't even the correct crime for this, and NJPs are a thing.

  9. #9
    Whitelisted Captain LilPenpusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stobarico View Post
    disorderly conduct, which wasn't even the correct crime for this, and NJPs are a thing.
    1. Quotation from ML wiki regarding Disorderly: "Directly and intentionally disrupting primary operations of the ship. Fighting in the RO line, disrupting the briefing."

    2, Disorderly is a major crime. NJP is not possible. Even if it were, NJPs are used at the discretion of MPs.
    Lance Corporal Misti Rockwell, Squad Medic (Alpha/Bravo).

    Synthetic Unit 'Amber'.


    Captain Misti Rockwell, USS Yokosuka, 2nd Division, 2nd Battlegroup, 3rd Fleet.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misti Rockwell View Post
    1. Quotation from ML wiki regarding Disorderly: "Directly and intentionally disrupting primary operations of the ship. Fighting in the RO line, disrupting the briefing."

    2, Disorderly is a major crime. NJP is not possible. Even if it were, NJPs are used at the discretion of MPs.
    Right on the second one, my bad on the wording that led to saying disorderly is NJPable, and yes, they are to be used at the discretion of MPs? That's exactly what i meant. Briefing hadn't began yet and wouldn't for 5 or so minutes, and considering they were throwing knives at eachother it would qualify for something different like Assault with a deadly weapon (Even if, like i said, they didn't expressively meant to hit eachother with the knives, it pretty much qualifies for this in spirit)

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