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Thread: frankthemagicpotato - Rule 3: Community Expectations

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    frankthemagicpotato - Rule 3: Community Expectations

    Player Report
    Your Byond ID?
    MrDadMan

    Date of Incident
    June 18, 2021

    Your Character Name?
    Amber Walsh

    Accused Byond Key(if known):
    frankthemagicpotato

    Accused Character Name
    Callie Jaegar

    Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results)
    12:20 am CST

    What rule(s) were broken:
    Rule 3: Community Expectations

    Description of the incident:
    So, I load OB and then me and my friend meet up and made plans to do our own build, both as MTs. We decide to build our own gimmick in the briefing room and start by wrenching the chairs that literally NEVER get used besides briefing, and even at this juncture, the marines were deployed and they would never get used. So we get to collecting the metal from the chairs because literally there are never incidents where this is an issue. Jaegar (as CMP) comes in the middle of it and collects half our metal. We are a bit upset by this saying like "hey, that's ours!". Once we finish collecting the metal, with her having half, she orders us to replace all the chairs again, meaning to use all the metal we just got and rebuild the chairs again. Of course, we refuse the order because that's completely absurd, especially with her contributing to the dismantling of the chairs. Then, she decides to place us both under arrest, tasering us both and arresting us both. We resist, assault, do what we can to try and escape the scenario we feel is bullshit when we literally do NO HARM AT ALL. We both agree that we just aren't going to deal with spending our rounds being in brig and would just rather cryo (this agreement was only made after we BOTH CRYO'D, so no metacomms happened. We were both just that upset over the incident).

    Realistically, there isn't anything wrong in ML with CMPs action. But Jaegar's constant impediment to round enjoyment. I sincerely feel that this is complete overboard use of MP roleplay, situation, and equipment. The intervention, interaction, and altercation was completely unnecessary. We knew that we were going to have to spend a large fraction of our rounds in brig if we were to be arrested by Jaegar because this happens very often and we already knew we'd get every charge for the situation. Which would be AT LEAST 15-20 minutes for us both.

    Even just yesterday, I pulled a crate of crayons to Brig all the way from Req because I wanted to brighten up everyone's round with jokes and foolishness because I know how boring it is to have no RP interactions. Then I get ordered to deploy and help FOB by XO, but Jaegar persists with their situation in saying that I destroyed a wall by the uniform vendor. CMP said it was fine and I didn't even need to be given NJP, but Jaegar persisted. I even corrected Jaegar because they were completely wrong with their evidence. I was opening the uniform vendors so that the medical staff could get labcoats. And me hacking the door next to it was such a mindblowing crime to Jaegar. But they decided to not only arrest me, but give me extra charges anyway. Even when I helped them with the situation by explaining what happened. No JNP. Just straight 20 minutes out of my round because THEY COULD.

    This is a huge issue for someone who's so active in the MP department, community wise. Regardless if it is fine on paper.

    I used to like Jaegar once I first started out playing shipside engineering roles because they play with such a good attitude and seem so nice. But in gossip I've had with my friends and others within the past month, it's because blatantly clear that we don't think Jaegar is a dick because of how speak, it's because of how they act. It's the very reason why me and my friends don't play shipside engineering roles anymore: we get arrested just for existing at this point.

    The engineering department is by far the most useless department in the entire server. Our sole purpose is to load OB and then that's basically it for the ENTIRE ROUND. That means it is up to US ALONE to make our own fun after that. And it takes 2-3 minutes to do our job average. The only other scenarios are occasional repairs for ship damages that we almost never get called for, helping set up the APC or CAS, which the VCs and POs mainly do on their own because that's literally big parts of fun for their rounds. So for our rounds to be shit on even more just for slight crimes that can be solved with NJP, it's absolutely NO FUN. AT ALL.

    Arresting someone for crimes isn't RP. It's just making something not bored for one party and ruining the fun of the round for the other party. There is no RP involved. There are no lessons being taught. People are just thrown in Brig and it's not even expected that people learn from their mistakes. Otherwise, MPs would almost NEVER be needed. There are no lessons. Only fractions of said person's round being taken down.

    Now for Jaegar, this shit is just frustrating because they are just one of the MPs me and my group have decided not to play shipside roles as because they arrest for any reason just because they can.

    As someone who TRIES TO HELP PEOPLE, DOES THEIR JOB AS MT, AND WANTS TO JUST HAVE FUN WITH THEIR FRIENDS, it's VERY infuriating to just have our rounds ruined just because MPs like Jaegar are going, looking for arrestable situations, and it ruins the round for us.

    The fact that it's seen as completely fine and our rounds have to suffer so that theirs can be less boring is completely ludicrous. Especially because of the fact that there's no RP needed for arresting someone, and the majority of the time of the arrest is just silence or little to no RP. Jaegar isn't making the community or rounds better as MP. They are ruining opportunities for fun and arresting over things that can just be avoided.

    It's even stated in the rules for staff that even if rules are broken but things are still flowing good for the people's opinion and community, it can be overlooked. As Most shipside roles are left to themselves in order to have a fun time in the round.

    If someone can just keep ruining opportunities for fun and people's round, what is even the point of playing shipside roles? Where is the line going to be drawn? How are we supposed to have fun on the server if we can't even do things for ourselves?

    Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
    https://imgur.com/a/P6ELbWt

    Chat logs of our situation.

    How you would punish the accused:
    Honestly just want Jaegar jobbanned from MP. Even if no punishment should be given, I request that my argument not be ignored regardless. This issue has gotten to the level to where me and friends don't even wanna touch shipside engineering roles because it's just a target for MP harassment.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnclearDoctorMain View Post
    Description of the incident: So, I load OB and then me and my friend meet up and made plans to do our own build, both as MTs. We decide to build our own gimmick in the briefing room and start by wrenching the chairs that literally NEVER get used besides briefing, and even at this juncture, the marines were deployed and they would never get used. So we get to collecting the metal from the chairs because literally there are never incidents where this is an issue. Jaegar (as CMP) comes in the middle of it and collects half our metal. We are a bit upset by this saying like "hey, that's ours!". Once we finish collecting the metal, with her having half, she orders us to replace all the chairs again, meaning to use all the metal we just got and rebuild the chairs again. Of course, we refuse the order because that's completely absurd, especially with her contributing to the dismantling of the chairs. Then, she decides to place us both under arrest, tasering us both and arresting us both. We resist, assault, do what we can to try and escape the scenario we feel is bullshit when we literally do NO HARM AT ALL. We both agree that we just aren't going to deal with spending our rounds being in brig and would just rather cryo (this agreement was only made after we BOTH CRYO'D, so no metacomms happened. We were both just that upset over the incident).
    I'd like to say that I was only arresting Locke at first, for refusing my order to replace the chairs. You assaulted me as I was arresting them.
    Quote Originally Posted by UnclearDoctorMain View Post
    Realistically, there isn't anything wrong in ML with CMPs action. But Jaegar's constant impediment to round enjoyment. I sincerely feel that this is complete overboard use of MP roleplay, situation, and equipment. The intervention, interaction, and altercation was completely unnecessary. We knew that we were going to have to spend a large fraction of our rounds in brig if we were to be arrested by Jaegar because this happens very often and we already knew we'd get every charge for the situation. Which would be AT LEAST 15-20 minutes for us both.

    Even just yesterday, I pulled a crate of crayons to Brig all the way from Req because I wanted to brighten up everyone's round with jokes and foolishness because I know how boring it is to have no RP interactions. Then I get ordered to deploy and help FOB by XO, but Jaegar persists with their situation in saying that I destroyed a wall by the uniform vendor. CMP said it was fine and I didn't even need to be given NJP, but Jaegar persisted. I even corrected Jaegar because they were completely wrong with their evidence. I was opening the uniform vendors so that the medical staff could get labcoats. And me hacking the door next to it was such a mindblowing crime to Jaegar. But they decided to not only arrest me, but give me extra charges anyway. Even when I helped them with the situation by explaining what happened. No JNP. Just straight 20 minutes out of my round because THEY COULD.

    This is a huge issue for someone who's so active in the MP department, community wise. Regardless if it is fine on paper.
    The job of MPs is to enforce ML. They have the option to sometimes give lesser punishments, like ignoring a hacked door. They are not required to exercise this. All of my arrests followed ML, as you said. Not letting crimes go unpunished isn't against the rules, or the crimes wouldn't be crimes.

    Regarding the round yesterday, I did fuck up with the print. However, I knew you broke the law, destroyed property, and charged you as such. CMP said that it was up to me, not to release/NJP.
    Quote Originally Posted by UnclearDoctorMain View Post
    I used to like Jaegar once I first started out playing shipside engineering roles because they play with such a good attitude and seem so nice. But in gossip I've had with my friends and others within the past month, it's because blatantly clear that we don't think Jaegar is a dick because of how speak, it's because of how they act. It's the very reason why me and my friends don't play shipside engineering roles anymore: we get arrested just for existing at this point.

    The engineering department is by far the most useless department in the entire server. Our sole purpose is to load OB and then that's basically it for the ENTIRE ROUND. That means it is up to US ALONE to make our own fun after that. And it takes 2-3 minutes to do our job average. The only other scenarios are occasional repairs for ship damages that we almost never get called for, helping set up the APC or CAS, which the VCs and POs mainly do on their own because that's literally big parts of fun for their rounds. So for our rounds to be shit on even more just for slight crimes that can be solved with NJP, it's absolutely NO FUN. AT ALL.

    Arresting someone for crimes isn't RP. It's just making something not bored for one party and ruining the fun of the round for the other party. There is no RP involved. There are no lessons being taught. People are just thrown in Brig and it's not even expected that people learn from their mistakes. Otherwise, MPs would almost NEVER be needed. There are no lessons. Only fractions of said person's round being taken down.

    Now for Jaegar, this shit is just frustrating because they are just one of the MPs me and my group have decided not to play shipside roles as because they arrest for any reason just because they can.

    As someone who TRIES TO HELP PEOPLE, DOES THEIR JOB AS MT, AND WANTS TO JUST HAVE FUN WITH THEIR FRIENDS, it's VERY infuriating to just have our rounds ruined just because MPs like Jaegar are going, looking for arrestable situations, and it ruins the round for us.

    The fact that it's seen as completely fine and our rounds have to suffer so that theirs can be less boring is completely ludicrous. Especially because of the fact that there's no RP needed for arresting someone, and the majority of the time of the arrest is just silence or little to no RP. Jaegar isn't making the community or rounds better as MP. They are ruining opportunities for fun and arresting over things that can just be avoided.

    It's even stated in the rules for staff that even if rules are broken but things are still flowing good for the people's opinion and community, it can be overlooked. As Most shipside roles are left to themselves in order to have a fun time in the round.

    If someone can just keep ruining opportunities for fun and people's round, what is even the point of playing shipside roles? Where is the line going to be drawn? How are we supposed to have fun on the server if we can't even do things for ourselves?
    This isn't someone minding their own business and getting targeted. In any of those times I've arrested you, you've undeniably broken the law, in a way you didn't have to. In this round, asking XO/CO for permission and I wouldn't have bothered you.
    I often see you fighting MPs/breaking the law shipside.
    You aren't being harassed by MPs, you're breaking the law and facing the natural consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnclearDoctorMain View Post
    Honestly just want Jaegar jobbanned from MP. Even if no punishment should be given, I request that my argument not be ignored regardless. This issue has gotten to the level to where me and friends don't even wanna touch shipside engineering roles because it's just a target for MP harassment.
    This part honestly seems a bit wild to me. I've broken no rules, simply enforced the law, and done my job as MP, even if I can be a bit harsh. It doesn't seem a jobbannable offense to... do your job.
    Connie Jaegar, evil MP
    Pau'thi Bo'ytill, unrobust pred
    AP-E, really bad runner
    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    I don't think you fully understand the reasoning behind my report. Allow me to make it clearer.

    Where should the line be drawn? Should the priority be focused towards maintaining the MRP nature of the server? Or should the priority be focused towards maintaining the fun and enjoyable aspects of the server? I think the answer should be very clear, otherwise there wouldn't be so many balancing changes to the TDM side of the server. Because let's face it. The TDM nature of the server is a big obstacle in what prevents a server from being realistic/HRP.

    The solution for this player report isn't so simple with my argument anymore.

    Now what does that have to do with the player report I have just made? It's because the conflicting issue here is the question on whether or not it is wrong to play the server by the book: this meaning are you wrong for taking your role seriously that you are more on the HRP side of the scale, and fitting into your role as you should and preforming realistically partial to the situation (because an MP would very much so be harsh/cruel in a real life situation), even at the risk of the enjoyment of other people's rounds; or me, the player that is more on the LRP scale (because it is unrealistic that someone enlisted in the military would attempt irrational actions against their superior, nor to construct entire scenarios, obstacles, whole rooms, etc all by themselves), but trying to have an enjoyable time in the server with themselves, their friends, and their resources when they are presented with no RP, purpose, or much fun relative to the round focused on groundside operations rather than shipside departments.

    See, this becomes an issue larger than just me versus Jaegar. It becomes an argument about the MP department system being flawed.

    It's not an unknown clause that many players are very against being brigged during their round to where it is even address in the rule clarification that drastic actions against the MP department just because said player doesn't like the MPs is strictly prohibited. For the listed situation, we acknowledge that there isn't really much saying that you were wrong for intervening. The issue comes because we failed to simply ask permission to repurpose chairs on the ship that will NO LONGER BE USED, and it becomes a green light for any MP to intervene and take away time progress in our round IN REAL TIME. No lessons taught to the player(s) having done the crime; no warnings given that what said player/s is/are doing is wrong. Personally, I've learned ALL of ML only through being arrested SO MANY TIMES. That's the ONLY reason I've learned.

    It is the fact that we disassemble the chairs, the CMP helps us collect the metal, and then we finish with everything, we are ordered to set them all back up. And if we don't spent the next 5-15 minutes setting up the chairs again without prior warning that what we were doing is wrong, having to get permission from our superior and then taking down the chairs again, which would be another 5 minutes; or we have to spend 10-30 minutes being hassled into brig, dealing with the time to get our records updated, getting our incident report set up, sitting in brig until our real-time timer is finished, then collecting our things only to have to deal with the previous said option? That's what we would have to deal with to have enjoyment? It's just okay that we have to through that with barely any RP just to possibly have to wait until the next round to redo it all over again, learning only because we just had to waste an entire round of potential just to be able to get some enjoyment?

    -If this is fine, to what extent are these actions and decisions acceptable until it becomes a larger community issue rather than just me and my group? MPs literally have the power to impede real life enjoyment with little to no intervention, checks, nor balances.

    The shipside departments barely get any RP as it is. So we shipside mains become friends with each other and we do things together shipside because we prefer to enjoy our rounds with friends and new people, scenarios? It is even listed on the wiki for the Corporate Liaison that most of its job is going around the ship looking for roleplay.

    -The primary use of MTs is to load the OB. That takes 2-4 minutes to complete. You may bring up other tasks such as ship maintenance, CAS, APC, deployment, etc. As someone who has gained experienced through 64 hours of being MT and 14 of CE, these tasks don't last them entire round. In fact, they are uncommon. I could say the very same for the other departments as well.

    - I've played time as MP as a different character and with another account. MPs are literally supposed to patrol and look around for scenarios where someone commits a crime. Who's going to do it? Marines? They are groundside. So they monitor shipside staff. The ones most likely to act up are the MTs. It isn't a coincidence. MTs are largely known to be troublemakers. So how hard can MPs be blamed when, in reality, they are doing their role correctly and doing their rp correctly?

    - My most hours are in medical and literally most of the doctor fun is NOT even being shipside. With gameplay changes and metas for marines, groundside personnel don't come back topside unless it's severe, round hindering injuries. The very reason why the MED-APC exists: so marines don't need to go back topside. When was the last medical event? Literally all medmains, including myself, rarely play the department anymore because it gets super boring after you learn everything.

    - Personally Req is the only department that I play because it is the only department that constantly feeds you interactive gameplay and enjoyable roleplay. But Req can literally be run with ONLY the RO. The CTs mainly are there to handle the lines. If MTs had Req access, CTs would never be needed. I get Req access sometimes with ROs and literally am able to do a CT's job doubled. Once lines are finished, Req is operational for groundside. Usually, the RO can completely handle it without the CT even needing to assist.

    - CiC is literally completely focused on groundside operations. Do I even need to explain this?

    The point with this digression is that shipside is literally so fucking boring that people would rather stop playing or go to next level extremes in order to achieve some lick of rp. Whether that be doubling down with arrests and looking for specific behaviors or areas that shit happens; or going to extremes with shenanigans, gimmicks, or even a rule violation just to make shit less boring. Half the shipside staff sit around all day.

    So that brings me back to the original topic: is Jaegar wrong for extra enforcement because there might not even be anything for action/rp for that round, or am I wrong for saying me not sitting around all round and then being arrested for it is unfair?

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    I'm sorry for all my grammatically mistakes. It's really late at night and I don't know why I chose now to keyboard warrior

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    Senior Moderator solidfury7's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, as your post is quite a lengthy one and touches a wide array of topics.

    Is this report is against FrankTheMagicPotato because he is enforcing Marine Law or is this more of a report specifically against Marine Law/MTs current state in CM?
    <::The Provost is always watching.::>

    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    Community Expectations and Rule 3 are more so going far beyond normal roleplay by pretending to be a Gunnery Sargeant Hartmann type and literally screaming profanities at people for no viable reason, or for OOC actions such as outright insulting a player in LOOC/OOC communications.

    A marine playing MP has procedures to follow and they are partially bound by server rules to follow Marine Law. I'm not going to take up an admin's time to pull logs when you go from one extreme to BAN THIS GUY FROM MP to WELL MP SYSTEM SUCKS AND IT RUINS MY GAMEPLAY.

    It would be unreasonable for us to punish a player for following MP procedures and server rules, but at the same token, MPs are to enforce the in-game laws, and it sounds like he was doing his job. Also we will never allow in our ruleset for corrupt MPs, and the only time it would be permittable would be during an minor event with staff overseeing.

    If you break marine law and get caught, the MP may or may not use discretion as long as they're within SOP/ML. Your report clearly states they said "Put back the chairs." and you refused. You can't cry foul after the fact.

    If you believe there could be a better MP system and/or Marine Law system based on our new standards, reach out to Nanu with actual suggestions as he controls Marine Law.
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