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Thread: On the subject of slurs

  1. #11
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    I still say we got infiltrated by the karens and sjw's. Almost makes you wish for a sseth tide.

  2. #12
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    I'm just annoyed that I roleplayed my stupid bitch character too well when addressing my fellow African American squad after we fucked up den xendigos. Nordica finally got treaded on.....

  3. #13
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    Free Tio. Free Nordica. Free Tay-K.

  4. #14
    Whitelisted Captain BatHoovyDood's Avatar
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    I probably should know better than to respond to this, but I think this is honestly an interesting question of what we should and shouldn't allow as RP in CM. I think there is no question that actual enlisted people, especially marines, talk a whole lot of shit, and that certainly includes slurs, racial, homophobic, and otherwise. So is out out of character in an abstract sense for marines to talk this kinda shit, I'd say not really. But at the same time, CM players are (barring some exceptions of course), not actually marines. So, and I know this is reductive, forgive me, its hard not to see this as people complaining that they can't be racist while larping as space marines.

    So while I think we certainly need to (as staff, and as a playerbase), look how we handle this subject, I can't help the part of my gut that is telling me that we are an online community first, and in-game characters second.

    Edit: I think my point here may have been lost in my effort to avoid stirring shit. Basically, that while I see the argument for why it could make sense as marine RP, it's more important to me that people are able to enjoy the server without this toxicity than it is for someone to be able to larp as a racist marine.
    Last edited by BatHoovyDood; 08-08-2021 at 09:47 AM.
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  5. #15
    Whitelisted Predator ChainsawMullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatHoovyDood View Post
    I can't help the part of my gut that is telling me that we are an online community first, and in-game characters second.
    Would've been true in the past, isn't true anymore.

    Through 2020 and 2021 more and more players have been pushed away from the community as a whole into meta discords and side communities. What was once a whole community with some inevitable discords on the side turned into 50 different communities all in their own Discords not even playing the same game at this point, it all just takes place on the same server.

    Not saying metadiscords didn't exist prior, but there were far fewer and they were far less populated. With how heavy-handed enforcement has become on the discord, who can even blame people? The only reason to be in the main discord is because whitelists require you to be and because of new round alert pings. Talking in there and having banter with your friends is just asking for some dumbass to take issue with it and get you in trouble.

    The community is fucking dead, and it's not coming back as long as things remain as they are.

  6. #16
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    I'm gonna casually assert myself into this conversation and say people should be allowed to say nigga whenever they want and whenever it fits.
    doesn't mean the person can't be held accountable for saying nigga. I'm just saying people should be allowed to say nigga if they want to.
    Think of it like this. We've been saying nigga even after civil's rights movement and people hardly get offended by it.
    we have way worse things to worry about than some guy saying nigga in place of dude/bro
    I'm pretty sure we're all smart enough to know people aren't gonna react to everything said and done. sometimes we just let it go and forget about it.
    so why do we still have people that get banned for saying "slurs" ???????
    weird time we living
    Last edited by Tails of Akira; 08-08-2021 at 08:23 AM.

  7. #17
    Retired Manager Somenerd's Avatar
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    So I think it's relevant that I give my own thoughts on the subject, given I'm extremely tired of the narrative that we're all just hyper-offended SJW Karens that can't cope in real life.

    I take the stance that I act in a way that I think benefits the server overall. I got into moderation because I wanted to get more involved in the community and to give my own voices on issues and things that are important. Fundamentally, I believe in making the server as enjoyable as I can for as many people as I can.
    I do not care if you don't like the fact you can't say slurs. If the only reason you're sticking around the server is because you're allowed to say slurs, that's honestly pretty embarassing. I understand that some people have difficulties adjusting their language compared to what they use in their private friend groups and such, but we're not your private friend group. We don't try to instantly yeet someone for saying a no-no word, but we're a community and we have guidelines, expectation and etiquette about how people are supposed to behave.
    We have a large variety of people that play and enjoy our game, especially as one of the largest servers on the hub. I've witnessed so many cool and talented people come and go because of toxicity and an environment which flat out just does not support them, or are talking constant shit about people like them. You might just think it's harmless fun, but these things have actual consequences, and people hide behind this shit or get really subtle about their homophobia/transphobia/racism all of the time.
    I would not enjoy the server as much if I spent half the time going around watching people call each other trannies or fags etc. It's not even an "I'm offended" thing, and I kind of really need to emphasise the fact that, at least from my perspective, it's not that it's offensive.

    It's just embarassing.

    People are literally losing their minds over the fact that they can't say slurs? I hear this narrative all of the time, that the people who are upset with people fostering an environment toxic to them or constantly doing shit that upsets them need to "grow a thick skin" while at least in my experience, the people doing this are some of the easiest to outrage members of the community.
    We aren't your friend group. We are a community of diverse people and interests, and I want to make sure that people can play here and enjoy themselves without feeling like the playerbase hates them for their identity.
    The sort of language you're advocating for is not tolerated in wider society, and hell, most other prominent servers ban that stuff anyway. If you can't play on the server because you literally cannot stop calling people faggots, then it just comes off to me as "I don't care what consequences my actions have or how many people I upset."

    The people complaining about not being allowed to say slurs still play the server. The people they drive off because of their cringy behaviour don't.

    Grow up.

    To finish, I also just don't see any fundamental change in the way we've handled this sort of stuff anyway, at least for over a year or longer, just slightly more consistent. I hear people complaining about people being banned during pride month, and I can tell you, there were only like three or four bans for homophobia during pride month, and they were literally almost all "All gay people are pedophiles", not someone saying a slur by accident.
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  8. #18
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    To start with, thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    So I think it's relevant that I give my own thoughts on the subject, given I'm extremely tired of the narrative that we're all just hyper-offended SJW Karens that can't cope in real life.
    I cant speak for everyone else but the main reason for which I believe this to be the case was with the I wanna say "corporatisation" or well sanitisation of CM, now I've always felt since I returned that staff was leaning more this way but the thing that really pushed it for me to believe staff where becomming "PC" and "SJW" was the manner in which you handled pride month. It felt very heavy handed and sort of self entitled "my way or the highway" attitude. The rule changes themselves where a bit hit and miss, some of them such as the ckey one just seemed needless and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    I do not care if you don't like the fact you can't say slurs. If the only reason you're sticking around the server is because you're allowed to say slurs, that's honestly pretty embarassing. I understand that some people have difficulties adjusting their language compared to what they use in their private friend groups and such, but we're not your private friend group. We don't try to instantly yeet someone for saying a no-no word, but we're a community and we have guidelines, expectation and etiquette about how people are supposed to behave.
    Just want to re-emphasise the point that Im not advocating for a rule change, I dont want you guys to just open the floodgates. What I am asking for is for staff to actually look at the context in which its used before pulling someone up on the issue. And to add to this, you say youre not trying to instantly yeet people but you do pull people up and make something which wasnt an issue to those involved into one.

    Now I do appreciate the consistency because that was one of my biggest grievences with staff for a long time. But it would also be nice for a bit more staff discretion when it comes to these incidents. This is something older staff teams did slightly better.

    Now there is a good reason why older staff (from my perspective atleast) where better at this type of enforcement. Server pop, since the servers population was much smaller staff members would interact with the player base to a far greater extent both within CM and without. As such the community itself was much tighter and staff could use their own experiences and interactions with a player to better understand why they said or did something.

    (Ok so this might end up being a giant off topic tangent and im sorry)
    So as youve said you have no intentions of being "friends" with the entire server and Im not asking or saying that you should (theres a but comming). Buuutttt, it would certainly help if staff took the time to interact with the playerbase as a whole more often. Reason is right now it feels as though staff live in this little bubble where you only really interact with a select few so youre not really getting to know the players youre incharge of and what theyre like. And in fairness old staff wasnt exempt from this issue either such as the heads and admins being 90% neverplayers but continuing to make up rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    We have a large variety of people that play and enjoy our game, especially as one of the largest servers on the hub. I've witnessed so many cool and talented people come and go because of toxicity and an environment which flat out just does not support them, or are talking constant shit about people like them.
    I understand that however, bare with me cause this is probably the dumbest hot take you'll ever hear. Dont those "toxic" players also have a right to play the server without feeling like an outsider. Especially when many of those players have been playing the server for far longer. For example say im a homophobe, im adamantly against it for religious and moral reasons and shit. And then I see the server parading around pride flags and mass condeming anyone who takes issue and having staff go "if you dont like it just leave" arent you then creating a hostile, unsupportive and toxic environment? Sure its hostile to a bigot but they have every right to hold those beliefs just as you have yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    You might just think it's harmless fun, but these things have actual consequences, and people hide behind this shit or get really subtle about their homophobia/transphobia/racism all of the time.
    I would not enjoy the server as much if I spent half the time going around watching people call each other trannies or fags etc. It's not even an "I'm offended" thing, and I kind of really need to emphasise the fact that, at least from my perspective, it's not that it's offensive.
    Again its why im asking you to look at the context. If someones just saying the words because they can, then go ahead pull them up for it. Same goes for people trying to mask their bigotted beliefs, if its ICly bigotted in the same line as the satirical Anti-commie crap I wouldnt take issue because its obviously IC and more for a laugh. If someone does get upset over this, you can always have a clause stating that "if such acts cause distress to an individual regardless of whether they are apart of it or not, cease immediatly" That way you get the best of both worlds. People who wanna spice things up and have a bit of a laugh can and if anyone has issue they can simply raise it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    People are literally losing their minds over the fact that they can't say slurs? I hear this narrative all of the time, that the people who are upset with people fostering an environment toxic to them or constantly doing shit that upsets them need to "grow a thick skin" while at least in my experience, the people doing this are some of the easiest to outrage members of the community.
    Cant speak on behalf of others but for me at least the outrage is more of an annoyance and its more for the reasons of "what are they gonna change next"

    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    The sort of language you're advocating for is not tolerated in wider society, and hell, most other prominent servers ban that stuff anyway. If you can't play on the server because you literally cannot stop calling people faggots, then it just comes off to me as "I don't care what consequences my actions have or how many people I upset."
    Ok so I think one is directed towards me in full so i'll try to break it down.

    -It depends, there are plenty of comedians and media personalities that use this type of language. Whilst in day to day life it isnt used all that often it is still accepted when used in the forms of comedy or in a context which isnt overtly negative. Inappropriate jokes are often the funniest due to this fact.
    -My issue as I stated on the staff channel and DMd you that same day wasnt the fact that I got pulled up over using a slur, I state in my report he did nothing wrong. My issue was that the note as you say "at most is a misuse of a plural" which I believed to make the note misleading about what actually happened.
    -I am fully aware about how words can impact and upset people, but in regards to my own situation there was nothing to say what I had done had caused anyone harm or distress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somenerd View Post
    People complaining about not being allowed to say slurs still play the server. The people they drive off because of their cringy behaviour don't.
    I understand your argument here completely, cringy behaviour is one of the reason why I quit CM. But again as long as the words are being used in an appropriate manner and in moderation I see no reason as to why any individual should take any major issue with it.
    As an example take classic CM, in the classic CM discord people would post the N word umpteen times for no reason other than to appear edgy and shit. Thats cringy, lame and shitty.
    In CM people use the N word as a substitute for "bro, dude etc" whilst it can be cringy depending on the person saying it, its by no means on the same level as it was with Classic CM


    To finnish this massive post off, if you think ive skipped over or missed any points youd like me to address just say.

  9. #19
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    In my perspective there are two ways of handling 'hate speech' where with just the utterance of a word it incites suffering in the heart of another.

    We ban the word outright and fight a battle over what people can and cannot say, policing everyone's speech through use of force (punishment). This doesnt take away from the power of the word to invoke suffering at all, just inflicts the use of force on everyone who use it (ill-will or not).

    The second option I see is we use no force against the use of the word, but only against the intent of the person using it to hurt others (don't be a dick). Yea it might still sting the first few time you come across it even if its used endearingly or without malicious intent, but eventually the trauma will fade and those who use it without malicious intent will inflict great damage to its toxicity with their good-will. And those that do use it maliciously will be shown all the greater in their contrived ill-will. (This makes more sense IC than it does OOC, maybe option 1 OOC but I am still more inclined to option 2 everywhere)

    I heard stories from the days when slurs were allowed IC were a whole squad would look out for their mates and beat up anyone who used slurs against any of them maliciously (actually good RP and wholesome). People arent cardboard cutouts and they are more than just what one douche with one word can muster. Words arent just the one definition prescribed in the dictionary, and in my opinion take their meaning equally from the person speaking and from the person spoken to. Policing and quarantining slurrs has the effect of bolstering their taboo-ness, refining the suffering they evoke due to how little they are spoken, as well as locking their definition into being only used for hate and ill-will when they dont have to be. (let kids fall and scrape their knee until they learn how to run vs. nanny your kids yelling at them because they tried to run). When a douche says a slurr with malicious intent, policing the word changes the crime from being wishing ill-will onto another person to having spoken a no-no word (which even those without evil in their hearts are liable to be punished for, and those who do have their true crime go unaddressed).

    And in my opinion people can individually respond to instances of people being assholes and wishing suffering on others much more than they can to someone having spoken an illegal word. You can do alot IC in the first scenario and through them create an ethos where-in its uncool. All you can do in the second scenario is complain to authority and pray the punishment they inflict is just, which reinforces the idea people dont have to do anything about it personally and its the role of the authorities to protect them.

    Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

  10. #20
    Retired Manager Somenerd's Avatar
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    I cant speak for everyone else but the main reason for which I believe this to be the case was with the I wanna say "corporatisation" or well sanitisation of CM, now I've always felt since I returned that staff was leaning more this way but the thing that really pushed it for me to believe staff where becomming "PC" and "SJW" was the manner in which you handled pride month. It felt very heavy handed and sort of self entitled "my way or the highway" attitude. The rule changes themselves where a bit hit and miss, some of them such as the ckey one just seemed needless and stupid.
    Aside from the fact that being homophobic during pride month was changed to a monthban, there wasn't really any changes that I remember to the way slurs have been handled over the last year. Trying to dissuade reactionary homophobia to a pride event by upping the punishment is pretty okay to me, honestly. I am being 100% serious when I say most of the bans were in line with "All LGBT people are pedophiles". I literally had someone in shitposting say my dad was based for wanting to beat the shit out of me. A little much?

    I'm not aware of what ckey thing you're talking about, but the only thing that happened during pride month was a picture change, people freaking out, and a couple blatant homophobes getting banned. I do not recall anyone getting beaned for 30 days over a slip of the use "fag".

    Just want to re-emphasise the point that Im not advocating for a rule change, I dont want you guys to just open the floodgates. What I am asking for is for staff to actually look at the context in which its used before pulling someone up on the issue. And to add to this, you say youre not trying to instantly yeet people but you do pull people up and make something which wasnt an issue to those involved into one.
    For the most part we do. We still don't want you using slurs, but there is a difference between using the word maliciously and just using it because it's part of your vocab. It's still something to pull you up on and say "Hey, please don't do that." I don't believe a note for slipping up is an invalid response to a fuckup, that's sort of how moderation works? You document mistakes or deliberate misbehaviour so you can document if a pattern is emerging or if someone is refusing to obey community guidelines.


    Now there is a good reason why older staff (from my perspective atleast) where better at this type of enforcement. Server pop, since the servers population was much smaller staff members would interact with the player base to a far greater extent both within CM and without. As such the community itself was much tighter and staff could use their own experiences and interactions with a player to better understand why they said or did something.
    I'm talking about consistently enforcing the "don't say slurs and don't be a dick" rule. Fundamentally, I don't think this is a huge thing to ask people to not call each other fags. Not only is it just a good idea to call each other something else, it's usually more entertaining to go for something more colourful. You're also still not allowed to be a dick, which most of the instances where someone is doing this they're probably being at least a lil toxic.

    As far as staff and community involvement, I very much am all for it, I want staff to feel able to converse with the community too and I make efforts to do so myself. I don't know if anyone thinks I'm locked up in some ivory tower or something, but I spend a lot of my time in shitposting posting frogs half the time, and I see mods talking in other parts of the discord too.

    When I say "We aren't your friends" I mean that we aren't your friends by default, and you cannot expect us to put up with the same stuff your friends do. Each relationship with someone whether friendly or enemy is contextual and has different levels of what people tolerate. Moderators are there to, well, literally moderate those exchanges. You can be friendly with staff, we're not all that bad! I'd love to organise some non CM related stuff sometime but not sure what people would be interested in. Also I need more voice training before I'll do voice chat, lmao.

    Again its why im asking you to look at the context. If someones just saying the words because they can, then go ahead pull them up for it. Same goes for people trying to mask their bigotted beliefs, if its ICly bigotted in the same line as the satirical Anti-commie crap I wouldnt take issue because its obviously IC and more for a laugh. If someone does get upset over this, you can always have a clause stating that "if such acts cause distress to an individual regardless of whether they are apart of it or not, cease immediatly" That way you get the best of both worlds. People who wanna spice things up and have a bit of a laugh can and if anyone has issue they can simply raise it.
    My problem with takes like "Well, if someone raises a fuss about it, then yeah sure do something" is that it essentially pushes the entire problem onto the person who is being victimised. If something is only wrong because one person got upset over it, that's when people start targeting people specifically. "Well, it WOULD have been okay if SOMEONE wasn't such a fucking BABY about things."

    Needless to say, that's very yikesy. I don't want people to feel like they're being unreasonable or putting themselves at risk just by asking if we can do something about people being dickheads.

    I understand that however, bare with me cause this is probably the dumbest hot take you'll ever hear. Dont those "toxic" players also have a right to play the server without feeling like an outsider. Especially when many of those players have been playing the server for far longer. For example say im a homophobe, im adamantly against it for religious and moral reasons and shit. And then I see the server parading around pride flags and mass condeming anyone who takes issue and having staff go "if you dont like it just leave" arent you then creating a hostile, unsupportive and toxic environment? Sure its hostile to a bigot but they have every right to hold those beliefs just as you have yours.
    I could be more philosophical with this, but I'll say that if you're a bigot and you at least have the sense to not do this shit to people in the community, then sure, you should have a right to play here too. I said before we have a very diverse range of players (AND STAFF) here. Pride Month was just a small thing that people freaked out over a gesture of solidarity. We aren't a corporation. We're not doing this stuff to sell more CM Coke bottles. It's just a gesture of support that was honestly a complete surprise to me when it happened, but that I appreciated. The people who got banned for a month were not saying "I'm sick and tired of the overcorporatisation of pride month and rainbows being stuck on products to make money". I think most people who engage with me in shitposting should recognise I'm willing to argue incredibly stupid shit for hours on end, and I usually give way more credit to people than I should. So I'm sorry, but I just don't see the massive plague of people getting banned saying "I am religious and I don't like it because of that reason" when I look in the ban logs.

    Again, I also just don't see any major change in the actual rules themselves for at least like a solid year and a half. I've been playing SS13 and CM since 2017 on and off, and it's been more lenient on the issue in the past but the actual slur rule change was put in ages ago.

    Ok so I think one is directed towards me in full so i'll try to break it down.

    -It depends, there are plenty of comedians and media personalities that use this type of language. Whilst in day to day life it isnt used all that often it is still accepted when used in the forms of comedy or in a context which isnt overtly negative. Inappropriate jokes are often the funniest due to this fact.
    -My issue as I stated on the staff channel and DMd you that same day wasnt the fact that I got pulled up over using a slur, I state in my report he did nothing wrong. My issue was that the note as you say "at most is a misuse of a plural" which I believed to make the note misleading about what actually happened.
    -I am fully aware about how words can impact and upset people, but in regards to my own situation there was nothing to say what I had done had caused anyone harm or distress.
    If you want me to address this directly, I understand that comedians sometimes make use of controversial topics for humour. I understand edgy humour. I really appreciate Bo Burnham, and think people critiquing his usage of slurs are being hyper offended at what is so *obviously satire* that they're kind of ridiculous. Our playerbase are not using the word to be funny, and if the joke is just "ha, you're gay/trans/black" it's not really that funny in the first place in most cases.

    As far as your particular incident goes, like I said, I don't think the note is inaccurate enough to warrant a rewording of it and the note is mostly to keep track of future trends. You know not to use it, so try not to. If you fuck up, you might get banned if you've got a history of it, but that's how moderation works. You also aren't the person that decides if your words have upset people, and again, I don't want a culture that then starts yelling at the people who actually get harmed because it was okay until "THEY" complained about it.

    As far as IC stuff (specifically people saying people beating up people for using slurs or being homophobic or whatever) I don't think there's enough instances of that happening to justify all the times when people are, in larger groups, being homophobic or racist as shit. I think you underestimate how often this stuff is just given a pass by the community at large, whether through inaction or actual support.
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