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Thread: Is this even metaming?

  1. #1
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    Is this even metaming?

    Right, had a chance to play plenty of hivelord and drone over the weekend and I'm more confused than ever. Long ass text coming.

    Other than in some rounds having a queen with PTSD or the one who micromanaged literally every single xeno every single minute to the point where she told us when to fart and when to breath, I saw some pretty conflicting info.

    For example, normally you start doing your 2x2 walls, or blockades from 2 walls, 2 doors on repeat. But it seems like the game was literally no designed to do this. What I mean by this is marines simply walk in after destroying them with ease. This is even worse when either we are on low-pop or when people are unwilling to join the xeno side and we have 100 vs 15.

    I saw hivelords get around this problem in a few ways and here is where my confusion comes. The confusing part is that it..works. And yet we are not allowed to do these things for some reason. I copied the other hivelord and all we got is yelling from queen. In practice the usual layouts fell withing minutes, but these 'meta' designs DID NOT. And yet, queen kept b*tching about it. I don't get it. It's pretty black and white if it works or not. If it does, why do queens feel like doing the same old same old if it doesn't work?

    For some specifics:

    - Instead of building your usual 1 tile wide walls with doors, we built around 3-4 sometimes 5 wide walls. It's more like a room of walls. The idea was to block off C4s and/or force wasting mortar. In practice marines never get through it. So it did work. We forced a flank, marines got wiped. Queen b*tched. You tell me why.

    - Spamming sticky resin and resin nodes. Instead of weed gets destroyed by 1 hit, it can withstand 3. This is to slow down marines also. Aka we had more time to regen, and in one specific round, marines had 2 flanks. We wasted at least 10-15 minutes with these defenses with ZERO xenos manning them. We fought off the other flank, rotated behind an killed these too. Have those defenses not been there, they would have walked in and surrounded and wiped us. Xenos were still mad for wasting 'resources', yet it was pretty clear why did we win.

    - Spamming fast resin with frenzy pheromons. Just had to observe it for 5 minutes to see a massacre. Perma killed enough marines to push and separate them. Queen literally said after killing 20 marines..to stop using fast resin.


    I don't get it. You might say we would have won without these defenses, but I'm 100% sure those specific places would have fallen without them. I talked about this with some ancient xenos and they all told me that a) queen is an idiot and b) this is metagaming as I am abusing the walls. Well is taking 3 shotguns with a macro not abusing the game? If devs don't like it why do they let me build so many walls? Also regarding the queen, some of them said to the builders that great job, so not all of them were against it, they saw it did save the hive. But I feel like some queens are just too stuck up to do things their way, even if they contribute almost zero to the round.

    Need my answers or I won't sleep for 10 days.

  2. #2
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    b) How devs are supposed to not allow you to spam walls?
    For each beno that spams 10000000 THICCCCCC walls, there is one beno that simply builds normal, non-cancer walls, but a lot of them.

    b) Queen's orders are the most important to a beno. One of the disadventages of a hivemind is that you have to listen, so if the Queen isn't a dick, she can order whatever and you have to listen and do as said.

    b) Taking only 3 shotguns with a macro is abusing the game? How could it be? You can even take 4 shotguns. And the best thing is... You need no additional macro (even unique action!). Click with mouse (PB), click "X" (change hands), click with mouse (PB), click "Q" (drop shotgun), click "E" (draw a shotgun), click with mouse (PB), click "Q" (drop shotgun), click "E" (draw other shotgun), click with mouse (PB).
    Where in this chain of action there is macro abusement? All in the hotkey system that CM has implemented. "E" was always used to draw a weapon. "X" was always used to swap hands. "Q" was always used to drop object.
    You can, of course, simplify the action with macros, but you can't macro your movement, you can't macro mouse clicking beno sprite and you can't macro T3 who doesn't get stunned from buckshot and takes little damage from it.

    Also, there is a difference between "fast cancer" and "slow cancer". OP shotgun abusement would be fast as fuck and a bit less annoying. Spamming walls like there is no tomorrow is slow, boring and thus = annoying.
    Imagine being a marine on the receiving end of that spammed walls. 15 minutes of clicking on a wall with your knife (or a gun with bayonet if you are luckey). All under "stress" that any beno (warrior, abducting prae) might jump out of the 1000 doors and yeet you. OH YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I CALL GAMEPLAY, BABY!

    Now, spin the wheel and let marines do something kinda the same. Imagine Solaris Ridge T-Comms flank, but instead of marines guarding, or not guarding it, its plasteel cades all the way down from t-comms and occasional (rare) sentries, both flaming and normal ones. Literally cancer cades each tile, like 30 layers of plasteel cades. I'm 100% this flank would fall quickly if not for that cancer spam, but hey, we play to win, not to have fun.

    Queens are players too and thank Kane that there are some that don't enjoy totall slaughter and reprimand benos who go over the top. At the really cancerous wall spam, I wouldn't be suprised if even admemes recognised by helping marines, like spawning additional HE OBs and refreshing OB cooldown, or giving them more mortars with more ammo.

    Wall spamming doesn't work only against marines. Other benos might get shafted too. Runners, sentinels, spitters, burrowers, maybe lurkers, they also don't benefit much from thick walls, so their fun is also decreased. As soon as they open one of the only "door hallway", they got constant barrage from every marine in a 1x1/2x2 hallway they themselfs opened and are even blocked by doors that had enough time to close themselfs behind them.
    REDEMPTION

  3. #3
    Ancient Member Tails of Akira's Avatar
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    sorry what?
    just use a flamethrower on the weed? miniflamer is easily obtainable and are most likely infinite use in most circumstance.
    walls.. get masterkey? get req to order more masterkey?
    maybe I am out of touch with CM but I think I at the very least right now active enough and I have not actually seen a circumstance where this is a problem.
    if xeno is literally walling off a large section of an area off. you can tell an admin about that because that's not allowed. from the last time I was playing xeno about last month
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    "b) Taking only 3 shotguns with a macro is abusing the game? How could it be? You can even take 4 shotguns. And the best thing is... You need no additional macro (even unique action!). Click with mouse (PB), click "X" (change hands), click with mouse (PB), click "Q" (drop shotgun), click "E" (draw a shotgun), click with mouse (PB), click "Q" (drop shotgun), click "E" (draw other shotgun), click with mouse (PB).
    Where in this chain of action there is macro abusement? All in the hotkey system that CM has implemented. "E" was always used to draw a weapon. "X" was always used to swap hands. "Q" was always used to drop object."

    --

    Yes like this I mean, I copy pasted a macro for this and I just smash 1 button on my mouse and it does it automatically. I though everybody does the same for this.



    "Also, there is a difference between "fast cancer" and "slow cancer". OP shotgun abusement would be fast as fuck and a bit less annoying. Spamming walls like there is no tomorrow is slow, boring and thus = annoying."

    --

    Bingo. This is the idea. That is why it can be considered metagaming as we literally make marines get bored of destroying walls. End of the day it either worked or not. And it did. I might be a realist, but I see things as they are. I either died or not. It did work or not. And this works. Yes it's a pain from the marine side, but when I see this as a marine, I take it as lore. Why would xenos not fill a room with un-passable material? Makes sense to me. It's up to the marines to solve this problem.


    "All under "stress" that any beno (warrior, abducting prae) might jump out of the 1000 doors and yeet you"

    --

    I even forgot this part. Building a wall only from doors. Got yelled that for a lot. Never mind we had 10 caps in 15 minutes with only 2 warriors and a carrier. Does it work? Yes. Not just yes, it works better than anything else I have ever seen. Can we use it? Warriors were begging me to build more like this. Queen said don't. Piss against the wind queen while we laugh at you.



    "Now, spin the wheel and let marines do something kinda the same. Imagine Solaris Ridge T-Comms flank, but instead of marines guarding, or not guarding it, its plasteel cades all the way down from t-comms and occasional (rare) sentries, both flaming and normal ones. Literally cancer cades each tile, like 30 layers of plasteel cades. I'm 100% this flank would fall quickly if not for that cancer spam, but hey, we play to win, not to have fun."


    --

    - Reading changelogs an comments on Reddit, I saw pictures from pre-nerfed cades. Big red had about 12 layers of cades on a pictures. Needless to say, it did hold. Doe it work? yes. So stop using it because...logic.


    "sorry what?
    just use a flamethrower on the weed? miniflamer is easily obtainable and are most likely infinite use in most circumstance.
    walls.. get masterkey? get req to order more masterkey?
    maybe I am out of touch with CM but I think I at the very least right now active enough and I have not actually seen a circumstance where this is a problem.
    if xeno is literally walling off a large section of an area off. you can tell an admin about that because that's not allowed. from the last time I was playing xeno about last month "

    --

    When I play engineer I take the miniflamer as it can be refilled from the backpack welder tank. I get what you mean but flames dont hurs sticky resin so it still takes extra time.



    Eh anyway, maybe I just play to win? With regular SS13 I play to have fun and I take the floor pills. But here I actually try to win. Maybe that is my mistake. If something works, I use it. Wonder if these people (crying queens especially) are like this in real life, bumping their head against the wall for 10 years before noticing that...it does not work.

  5. #5
    Member Ethan10000llahd's Avatar
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    no not everyone does shotgun macros people like me and cass have to go through shift e unique e e unique hell fumbles each time we play...

  6. #6
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    Yes like this I mean, I copy pasted a macro for this and I just smash 1 button on my mouse and it does it automatically. I though everybody does the same for this.
    Not everybody does that, because thats lame, boring and won't help with gamesense a bit. As said, you can't macro your movement, prediction of beno movement and you can't macro clicking beno sprite. Also not everyone uses three shotguns, or even two shotguns, or even one shotgun with buckshot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post

    Bingo. This is the idea. That is why it can be considered metagaming as we literally make marines get bored of destroying walls. End of the day it either worked or not. And it did. I might be a realist, but I see things as they are. I either died or not. It did work or not. And this works. Yes it's a pain from the marine side, but when I see this as a marine, I take it as lore. Why would xenos not fill a room with un-passable material? Makes sense to me. It's up to the marines to solve this problem.
    Probably doesn't even fall under "metagaming", because that is acting upon knowledge your character doesn't have. Its more of a powergaming and dickish move. Grieffing, but the enemy player, which is harder to notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post

    I even forgot this part. Building a wall only from doors. Got yelled that for a lot. Never mind we had 10 caps in 15 minutes with only 2 warriors and a carrier. Does it work? Yes. Not just yes, it works better than anything else I have ever seen. Can we use it? Warriors were begging me to build more like this. Queen said don't. Piss against the wind queen while we laugh at you.
    Yes, nevermind, not everyone enjoys powergaming. Even sweaty, greasy benomains sometimes have that moment of post-slaughter clarity, where efortlessly getting something via cheese stops being fun after a while. Kinda a type of player who normally would spawn hundreds of defenceless NPCs in a singleplayer and kill them all, but transfered to multiplayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post

    - Reading changelogs an comments on Reddit, I saw pictures from pre-nerfed cades. Big red had about 12 layers of cades on a pictures. Needless to say, it did hold. Doe it work? yes. So stop using it because...logic.
    Tank with LTB cannon and scope on launch. Did it work? Yes. So why stop using it? Widowmaker CAS, did it work? Yes. So why stop using it? Explosive-tipped ammunitions available for marines roundstart, did it work? Yes. So why stop using it? OBing hijacked dropship during flight, did it worked? Yes. SO why stop using it? Almayer Synth being allowed to freely fight xenos, did it work? Yes, so why stop using it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post

    Eh anyway, maybe I just play to win? With regular SS13 I play to have fun and I take the floor pills. But here I actually try to win. Maybe that is my mistake. If something works, I use it. Wonder if these people (crying queens especially) are like this in real life, bumping their head against the wall for 10 years before noticing that...it does not work.
    P O W E R G A M I N G
    REDEMPTION

  7. #7
    Ancient Member Tails of Akira's Avatar
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    CABAL in all fairness we still have synth attacking xeno shipside. the only reason we may not see this as often is because often time it's better to save marine life than fight xeno.
    exception is when the xeno is a bigger priority than the marine
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  8. #8
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    Fuck now I actually know the difference between metagaming and powergaming.

    So these tactics are powergaming then. Still don't see the problem though. Every time I try play 'normal' I die incredibly fast to power gamer marine who somehow shoots 6 shots from 2 MOU in under 1 second that to this day I can not replicate.

    When I die like this, or due to a bug where I get stunned for longer than I suppose to is when I get pissed off and start powergaming.

    This is the other thing I just remembered. Happens too often. Normally PBing a runner/lurker from 100% hp with buckshot should stun for a bit and let them run away. Yet the stun seems to be totally random. Sometimes you can see they got 1 shotgun, you can hear them reload and still shoot you while you have 10 HP so you are not dead. Meaning they are not using 2 shotgun thing and stun still lasts too long. Why?

    Some people also admitted after death to use some kind of clicker program (they said comes default with their mouse though) where they press a button and it starts clicking 50 times a second. So you can literally not miss. This is than also powergaming.

    Deaths like this make me powergame. If they are allowed to do this, I will also play my games which to be honest way less abusing than they do.

  9. #9
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    snip
    You know what is the correct response for someone cheating against you? Surerly not cheating back. You should call admeme and he is there to solve the issue. Because spamming walls surerly doesn't do anything to that double MOU user, but severly shits on other, normal players.
    Response to somebody (potentially, I don't know) abusing somehow double MOU's isn't shitting resin walls like there is no tomorrow. However I think I remember that somebody made a report against someone using MOU, pointing at external programs (autoclickers and stuff) and that report was denied as it was probably proven that the guy did it manually with macros.

    You don't see the problem, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Nobody says you are not allowed to play to the best of your abilities, but you shouldn't be annoying with it.
    Literall hamster wheel. One guy goes overboard with MOU, other guy goes overboard with walls in response, few go overboard in response to walls, rest go overboard with response to that response and then the original MOU guy goes overboard because of that.

    Stuns of any kind (not just buckshot) against benos have usually fixed time, but BYOND being BYOND is shitting on that too. Stuns are counted by server ticks, so if you get stunned at the beginning of a tick you are stunned for longer. If you are stunned at the end of a tick, you are stunned for less time.

    No, autoclicker isn't powergaming, its cheating. And I doubt people would radomly admit they use it in dchat, when admemes watch.

    Nobody is allowed to cheat (besides admemes hehe).
    In a fight of cheater vs powergamer, oh boy... You will lose so hard.

    Also, you aren't doing anything to combat said powergamers and cheaters. One should know that shitty place won't be any better if they start to mess themselfs. Said person is the problem, not solution.
    REDEMPTION

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