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Thread: People simple refuse to follow orders, briefings are pointless

  1. #61
    Junior Member Zeithri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    Nah, played plenty Carson back in the day. In that sense nothing changed. I'm not just basing my observation on marine experience, but on ghost observing at late xenoburst-larva-join. But I give you one that you can try out.

    When round starts go and observe. Wait until drop and just observe. That's all you need to do. You know the orders, you observed briefing and announcements. Once you see that I'm 100% right and 50% of marines simply not following SL regarding of CO, XO, SL, what is the plan, you will see what I mean. I mean how else would you know if half the team is not there? Don't base it on manifest or other. Literally just observe.

    Now we had some great suggestion at least that WILL work if implemented like SL 'pheromons'.

    I still don't think you lads understand that some - I would even say A LOT - of marines play 100% pure unga. They literally won't type anything at all ever. They play it like Doom 3. Take gun, kill stuff. That's it. If this would be 5-10% of players, sure. But some rounds this is 20-30% of players or more. You really think they give a damn who the hell is CO or what is the plan? They ask 'where is front?'. 'West'. And that was it. you never see them talk again. It's like we play 2 different games, what I'm describing here is not like 1 out of a 100 but legit closer to 20-30 as you would think and the next 20-30% is not much better. They type less than 1 line during the whole round.

    TLDR: Observe a round from drop 10-20 minutes. At least half marines don't give crap who is CO.
    This. I wish I could give a thumbs up but this, so much this.

  2. #62
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    I still don't think you lads understand that some - I would even say A LOT - of marines play 100% pure unga. They literally won't type anything at all ever. They play it like Doom 3. Take gun, kill stuff. That's it. If this would be 5-10% of players, sure. But some rounds this is 20-30% of players or more. You really think they give a damn who the hell is CO or what is the plan? They ask 'where is front?'. 'West'. And that was it. you never see them talk again. It's like we play 2 different games, what I'm describing here is not like 1 out of a 100 but legit closer to 20-30 as you would think and the next 20-30% is not much better. They type less than 1 line during the whole round.
    Almost everyone is aware that this type of player exists. And you can't do anything to them short of admeme/mechanical enforcement.

    But they aren't the problem, they provide that cannon fodder background for each round. Because not only they are NPCs who don't do anything besides fighting, they also suck at it. Listen to the order, or not, they will die anyway. At best its "monkey see, monkey do", where they follow some more fancy marines who they saw a couple rounds ago kill few benos on their own. Those who are capable of listening to CO and aren't 0RP NPCs are usually way more robust in combat.

    There is no point in arguing about something that is unchangable, thus there is no point in acknowledging 0RP players exist.
    REDEMPTION

  3. #63
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    Going off of what people have said about SL pheromones or JIMA flags, I once suggested that SLs, Officers, and FTLs give off a passive accuracy buff around them, while slightly nerfing accuracy over all to represent fear in game and encorage sticking together with your mates.

    It was not recieved well at the time.
    But I still think that improving the buffs that SLs are able to give can go a long way in encouraging team play.
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  4. #64
    Member Lucif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    Nah, played plenty Carson back in the day. In that sense nothing changed. I'm not just basing my observation on marine experience, but on ghost observing at late xenoburst-larva-join. But I give you one that you can try out.

    When round starts go and observe. Wait until drop and just observe. That's all you need to do. You know the orders, you observed briefing and announcements. Once you see that I'm 100% right and 50% of marines simply not following SL regarding of CO, XO, SL, what is the plan, you will see what I mean. I mean how else would you know if half the team is not there? Don't base it on manifest or other. Literally just observe.

    Now we had some great suggestion at least that WILL work if implemented like SL 'pheromons'.

    I still don't think you lads understand that some - I would even say A LOT - of marines play 100% pure unga. They literally won't type anything at all ever. They play it like Doom 3. Take gun, kill stuff. That's it. If this would be 5-10% of players, sure. But some rounds this is 20-30% of players or more. You really think they give a damn who the hell is CO or what is the plan? They ask 'where is front?'. 'West'. And that was it. you never see them talk again. It's like we play 2 different games, what I'm describing here is not like 1 out of a 100 but legit closer to 20-30 as you would think and the next 20-30% is not much better. They type less than 1 line during the whole round.

    TLDR: Observe a round from drop 10-20 minutes. At least half marines don't give crap who is CO.
    There are such and more of them, and then they wonder why they do not get a WL when they do not even talk.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Casada_Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    snip
    You are talking about a fully centralised command system that is very similar to the xeno hivemind system where all Queen orders are OOC enforced. This is my experience on ghosting, command, sl, xeno player and pfc player as well as medic player as well. Allow me to summarise some points on the matter.

    1. If your idea is to have a complete centralised command structure where micromanagement takes priority then its not gonna work. Marine command is mostly strategic and macro command and derives its strength to on the spot thinking and decentralised command. Due to sheer size of numbers and number of grounds covered along with their physical limitations compared to xenos, most of them benefit from this.

    2. 'Nothing changed' is wrong compared to the old days. Marines dont unga dunga solo that often then because of how stupidly strong the xenos were considering the philosophy to maintain the 70-30% xeno winrate. Furthermore, marines then couldnt run around like they were speedy gonzales. It was harder to execute insane flanks and encirclement of xeno forces when almost every marine walk so slow and they face the doom of paincrits and the old pain system. Let's not forget the insane speed of xenos then and the lawnmower 1-2 hit delimb ravager. Therefore, following orders and staying together last time was more viable and has a higher incentive to practice than now because the gameplay meta of today is to outmaneuver the enemy as much as possible.

    3. Marines play unga most of the time because that is the winning strategy. In certain period when marines do try to follow orders they lose, and those were in the periods where xeno maturation exists as well as other meta factors. It was a banzai charge to displace the enemy, prevent them from fortifying their position further, and absolutely destroy any advantage they have. The problem comes after that when you have to follow up on the attack to not lose momentum and give any breathing ground for xenos to breathe in. This was a sad culture change ever since stat mutators were implemented

    4. It is not a strategic interest nor advantage to make the marine command structure to follow that of the xeno command structure. Communication points between frontline to CIC takes a while, and there are situations where you have to act immediately to secure a win or position before the xenos push you out. Furthermore, frontliners are forced to make decisions immediately in a wide variety of situations faced to them. Sometimes if the SL is too busy using binocs and order a bombing and you see 2 ravagers killing the west side of the army. It is absolutely stupid to just stand there and defend the ground, you obviously want to protect the SL from Ravager attack and to do that you have to kill the 2 ravagers.

    Or

    A hivelord and 2 praetorians are slowing the push massively. In the same moment your SL is out, command is struggling to handle OB being not chambered by a baldie MT, FOB is being harassed by BOO, SL in another squad is communicating about trying to flank the xenos, Someone else is screaming Queen. Depending on what else goes, all of this can arrest the entire communication line and command ability of SLs and CIC personnel which varies from individual. Yet if you see a Hivelord out in the open, and you see an opportunity to stop this ant from stalling the marines so that you can push more effectively, obviously you unga dunga hard and make sure you kill the Hivelord and any who stands in your way to help the other squads.

    5. Adding on to that, when I used to play Queen one of the tactics we used to employ was to cripple the Marine command structure by using a series of feints, flanks, skirmishes, and maneuvers. Due to how marines structure their command it is very easy to do this. It is even easier to this now than it is before. When the marine players found out about this they decided to counter xeno command cripples by decentralizing the command structure further. Hence you have this meta.

    To provide example on how these shine, there was a game on LV where neither marines nor xenos were pushing through the fog gaps. Fog gaps are cancer is basically the short version. Command orders were to sit it out and wait for the fog to fully drop. In the middle of this, an unga named Jessica Weiss(Spartanbobby), went in solo, caught 2 boilers by surprise, killed them, came back. The boiler kill was a huge contribution to the game that let us win because the xenos werent expecting 1 marine to walk through the fog gaps and to actually kill their T3s and their hubris costed them the game.

    6. Command has for the most part about channeling unga energy for the objective, not controlling or stopping it. There will always be a period of time where these baldies want to mimic our robust players to hivedive and ungadunga. Honestly sometimes you gotta sit it out and wait because they dont know how to do it as well as the robust players. Robust players observe the situation and decide on their action immediately.

    To summarise my view, if you dont have a reputation established that is worth listening to where you are a proven commander, then you will find it hard to resolve the people following your order issue.

    SL Pheromons is an interesting idea, not exactly bad. But my view is that the whole game system is broken from game, to staff enforcement to player base.

    If you REALLY REALLY want to have a big bump in something, I dare you to push for the 70-30% xeno winrate as a start. I double dare you, this will break the community and you will never ever hear the end of it from CABAL calling you out as a dumb xeno main. But it will make the marines respect the xenos more and you wont see more of those rambo unga dunga stuff. I mean they will still do it, but it is definitely more controlled.
    Last edited by Casada_Radio; 01-01-2022 at 04:51 AM.
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  6. #66
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casada_Radio View Post
    If you REALLY REALLY want to have a big bump in something, I dare you to push for the 70-30% xeno winrate as a start. I double dare you, this will break the community and you will never ever hear the end of it from CABAL calling you out as a dumb xeno main. But it will make the marines respect the xenos more and you wont see more of those rambo unga dunga stuff. I mean they will still do it, but it is definitely more controlled.
    Just try and test it out, stupid benomain, hehe.

    Surerly making other side stronger will not enforce the meta even harder.
    If the goal is for marines to only stick together no matter the cost, then yes, it will be accomplished by that winrate. Despite years passing, I still stand strongly with few opinions I had back "then".
    But thats it. You will only make marines stick together and nothing else. They won't listen to orders because benos are stronger, they won't attend brieffings because benos are stronger and isn't that the main point of this thread?

    It will just make benos stronger and marines will generally stick more closely, but thats the end of "positives". And what are the negatives? NPCs will either remain NPCs, or they will change sides, so you will get threads that benos simply refuse to follow orders, that they don't stick together, that they rambo, that they only LRP meme etc.
    Meta will hit harder. Now you go with meta loadout, because you want kills. With stronger benos you go with meta loadout to survive 10 minutes outside FoB. Metarushes were born and existed long before 50-50 winrate goal.
    Cadehugging by marines. If they are generally weak, they will hug the cades like its their mother after having a bad dream.

    So the drawbacks heavily outweight adventages of such move.
    But you can try, I promise I won't care, I will just laugh how threads like this will pop up like mushrooms after a rain. Who could guess that would happen? Nobody could.
    REDEMPTION

  7. #67
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    Very good observations here. I 100% agree that you can not force people to play as you want them. So the next best thing you can do, is you have to find a way that players WANT to play by the rules. We are talking about the ungas here, not the rest.

    Yes the SL pheromons/jima flag is one of these solutions, it needs to give up a good deal of buffs so it wort it though, but this would be one easily implementable and good solution that is lore friendly and seems balanced. If they implement it, the thread at least worth it to make, otherwise I will watch YT videos while taking a dump not type here.

    *Next problem*

    Now regarding the other issue that marines refuse to follow orders. So this is a tricky one. Again, I'm talking about ungas here not regular players. Sometimes I find even myself to struggle to follow the objective. My issue can be the following, I will assume ungas have the same problem. Some solutions would be nice for these.

    - I don't know the map well enough. So I've been playing for some time, but to this day I can get lost on Snow or on Dam. I'm not saying I can not find the front, I'm saying if command were to tell me go the the experimental tower when I'm in the northern offices when poo water is not purified and the bridge have been blown up, I would really have to think which way to take to avoid xenos and not waste time for a runner/lurker to find me.

    In this situation some sort of GPS system that is not just pointing the direction, but gives me some pointers to reach would be good as I had many times that the bridge was OBd and had to go around or pray they don't have xenos waiting to pounce us and drop us back to poo water after we throw each other over bridge. It's a bad situation to be in as if something goes wrong, you can't just walk back as xenos will gas you or trap you or oppressor pull you, pretty much guaranteed wipe if you play with this.

    An other observation here regarding the direction is, I noticed that command is playing using a map (in-game or website), while ungas will never alt+tab out or take a map with them to see where is what. Normally this is not an issue, we all know where is hydro or nexus.

    But on some maps, instead of command saying like, go east of bridge or push to hospital and go south...Command instead will say: rally at workshop....What the fuck is a workshop. Or on snow, Push to Canteen. Push where???

    Yes I opened the map I see where it is. I should not have to do this. All maps have these, whiskey also and since it's a rare event map, it's even worse. Don't tell us these tiny targets. You have to assume that some people don't know where is every single building on every single map. Yet command to this day giving orders and than wonder why 10 solo marines walking to random direction getting eaten by lurkers.

    *possible solution*

    This won't help with the lost marine issue, that is a command problem. If you blame the marines not knowing the map, you are a bad leader and you are the problem. I guess you can just blame them, but a good leader would expect this, find ways to make it work and write 1 line extra in their announcements that - to reach front, walk east of LZ, cross the fridge than push south. - It's not that hard. Or I guess just blame everybody else when you can solve the problem in seconds, we all had bad bosses. Some play the blame game, others somehow always make it work.

    An other tool in the command arsenal should be beacons. DS can drop a 360 sentry. We should have something similar. Command should be able to drop a beacon that will emit lights so you can see it from the dark and it should be selectable with alt+clickin on the tracker. This could serve as an easy to implement solution to help command tell marines where they want marines to push.

    Ideally it would look like this: get coords. Commman announcement: Push to hydro, from there follow beacon into central caves. Rally there, supply crate also been dropped. Rearm and push east on SL command.

    Not hard to use as command and as an unga, I will see action, I will have my SL buffs, I'm getting more AP ammo so hell yeah I'm coming.

    These are the solutions I would like to see implemented. As I've said, you can not force people to play how you want them, but if you understand WHY they play the way they do, you can very much influence them.

    Right time to flush...

  8. #68
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    snip
    Behold the solution to your map problem:
    LV624.jpg

    Just make this, but in more professional way than 20 seconds in paint for each map and here you go. Then spread the news and actually use the grid terminology ingame. In time, people will learn.
    REDEMPTION

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABAL View Post
    Behold the solution to your map problem:
    LV624.jpg

    Just make this, but in more professional way than 20 seconds in paint for each map and here you go. Then spread the news and actually use the grid terminology ingame. In time, people will learn.
    I have to disagree. We are back to square one. Now on top of you assume all players know the basics, they know the map, they know every building, now you also assume they know the grid system. We are even taking back one step from step one.

    I'm suggesting doing the exact opposite of this. You have to treat them like ungas..because they are. Don't tell them complicated maneuvers, grids and all that. Tell them to land, reach hydro than from there push inside NW caves and ignore container front. Inside caves push east.

    Maybe It's my curse IRL that over that last 10 years I had to work with people from literally 100+ countries and all background you can imagine. You will learn really quickly that every single person you meet is totally different than the next one.

    Some will assume they know everything and blame them when it goes to sheit. Others just learn to finish the job regardless of the cards dealt. I don't play the blame game, I think it's pathetic. It it goes to shit, it was my fault.

    I look at this same way from the command perspective. If even 1 marine is getting lost, it was my fault as a more competent commander could have done a better job. And we see 100% this happening with some of the better ones out there. They make it work while others blame everybody but themself.

  10. #70
    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    snip
    No, they don't need to know every map and every building with grid system. They also don't need to know grid system to benefit from it. All it takes is a quick glance at the map to know everything. You would have to be a reall retard to not be able to use the simplest grid system in a world.
    All that is needed to know to use grid system is to know on what location is main LZ, then you can walk everywhere by glancing at the map opened in other tab for 3 seconds.
    Using that paint example, LZ on LV is E6, so CO tells marines to go C4 while also pointing out that the best way is to go trough D4.
    All of that is achieved without any mechanical gameplay change, one could dare to say its kinda mil-RP. The end of days where CO screams some vague name in announcement where you have to search the map troughly to know where to go and which way. All he need to scream is go from LZ/E6 to D4 trough C4. Short, informative and if retards can't learn the simplest thing imaginable, I have bad news for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightbearetard View Post
    I'm suggesting doing the exact opposite of this. You have to treat them like ungas..because they are. Don't tell them complicated maneuvers, grids and all that. Tell them to land, reach hydro than from there push inside NW caves and ignore container front. Inside caves push east.
    If that is the exact opposite of a grid system and somewhat isn't complicated then I admit, I'm a total fucking brainless idiot.
    Lets compare:
    "Land, reach hydro, then from there push inside NW caves and ignore container front"
    to
    "Go from LZ to C4 trough D4."
    What unga needs to know in the former? What is hydro, how to get there, where exactly are (and what are) NW caves (super fucking vague, the area that can be called NW caves is like 1/6 of a whole map) and what is container front.
    What unga needs to know in the latter? Where is E6, where is C4, where is D4. He can gain this knowledge from looking at grid system for 5 seconds. He can even look at the grid map during pre-drop when he sits in DS.
    Imagine people screeming "Help A2!" instead of "HEEEEELP, I'm in NE caves!".
    There are only adventages to introducing a grid system.

    If retard would get lost with a grid system in place and publicly shoced into his damn mouth (via furscord, via join message etc) he is a retard and no command should ever blame themselfs that some stupid fuck, who can't comprehend chess grid, saw Sseth video and somehow banged rock on a rock till BYOND mercifully installed itself on his PC.
    Last edited by CABAL; 01-04-2022 at 11:37 AM.
    REDEMPTION

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