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Thread: "He did the math" an introspection on the state of the M39

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    Senior Member Santiago Delgado's Avatar
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    "He did the math" an introspection on the state of the M39

    LET'S DO SOME MATH! (I fucking love math)

    TLDR at the bottom cause math is boring.

    ---OUR WEAPONS---
    M41 mk2: Attachments: NONE
    Rate of fire: 5 per second
    Damager per bullet: 44 non-ap / 33 ap, pen of 40
    Scatter: 4
    Accuracy: 20.8
    Falloff: 4 / Range 7 tiles

    M39: Attachments: NONE
    Rate of fire: 7.69
    Damage per bullet: 34 non-ap / 24 ap, pen of 30
    Scatter: 12
    Accuracy: 4
    Falloff: 8 / Range 4 tiles

    Quoted straight from Nanu308(Head Developer), "Secondly attachments are very rarely considered for the balance of the base gun as they are limited by design to change/buff etc. due to their limited availability." As Such I am making all calculations removing any and all attachments on the weapons. All calculations are from base weapon stats.

    ---DAMAGE TABLE ARMOR VALUES---
    Pulled straight from the game current info tables as of 1/5/2022

    :M41:

    Regular:
    0 _5 _10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50
    44 44 40 36 33 25 21 17 13 10 7

    AP:
    0 _5 _10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50
    33 33 33 33 33 33 33 33 33 30 27

    :M39:

    Regular:
    0 _5 _10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50
    34 34 30 28 21 18 14 11 8 _5 _3

    AP:
    0 _5 _10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50
    24 24 24 24 24 24 24 21 17 14 11


    ---DAMAGE PER SECOND---


    Note: we are going to make a few assumptions when calculating;
    *All shots hit with perfect 100% accuracy
    *No spread or missing our target
    *All shots hit are within optimal range
    *You are fully utilizing the Rate of Fire of said weapon
    *Xeno Armor values are from Wiki, not taking into account strains or abilities.

    ----------

    Armor Value 0: Drone, Runner, Sentinel, Carrier, Hive lord, Lurker, Boiler
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 44 damage = 220 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 34 damage = 261.46 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 24 damage = 184.56 damage per second

    The M41 is 84.14% as effective as the M39. AP is 89.40%

    ----------

    Armor Value 15: Spitter
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 36 damage = 180 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 28 damage = 215.32 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 24 damage = 184.56 damage per second

    The M41 is 83.59% as effective as the M39. AP is 89.40%

    ----------

    Armor Value 20: Warrior
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 21 damage = 161.49 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 24 damage = 184.56 damage per second

    The M41 is 102.17% as effective as the M39. AP is 89.40%

    ---------

    Armor Value 25: Burrower, Praetorian, Ravager, QUEEN
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 25 damage = 125 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 18 damage = 138.42 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 24 damage = 184.56 damage per second

    The M41 is 90.30% as effective as the M39. AP is 89.40%

    ----------

    Armor Value 30: Crusher
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 21 damage = 105 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 14 damage = 107.66 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 24 damage = 184.56 damage per second

    The M41 is 97.52% as effective as the M39. AP is 89.40%

    ----------

    Armor Value 35: Defender
    M41 Reg: 5 per second X 17 damage = 85 damage per second
    M41 AP: 5 per second X 33 damage = 165 damage per second

    M39 Reg: 7.69 per second X 11 damage = 84.59 damage per second
    M39 AP: 7.69 per second X 21 damage = 161.49 damage per second

    The M41 is 100.48% as effective as the M39. AP is 102.17%



    ---SPREAD AND ACCURACY---


    For these calculations I have taken both weapons and shot 300 rounds in the firing range while tallying every time a bullet missed. In the firing range the dummies register every hit with an animation so it is easy to keep track of every hit and miss due to accuracy and spread.

    ----------

    M41 at 7 tiles with 300 rounds base stats of weapon: 0 misses
    Mag1:0 / Mag2:0 / Mag3:0 / Mag4:0 / Mag5:0 / Mag6:0 /Mag7:0 / partial Mag8:0
    DPS loss to spread and accuracy: NONE

    ----------

    M41 at 4 tiles with 300 rounds base stats of weapon: 0 misses
    Mag1:0 / Mag2:0 / Mag3:0 / Mag4:0 / Mag5:0 / Mag6:0 /Mag7:0 / partial Mag8:0
    DPS loss to spread and accuracy: NONE

    ----------

    M39 at 4 tiles with 300 rounds base stats of weapon: 85 misses
    Mag1:14 / Mag2:12 / Mag3:18 / Mag4:12 / Mag5:14 / Mag6:10 / partial Mag7:5
    DPS loss to spread and accuracy: 28.33%

    ----------

    M39 at 3 tiles with 300 rounds base stats of weapon: 28 misses
    Mag1:4 / Mag2:6 / Mag3:5 / Mag4:4 / Mag5:5 / Mag6:2 / partial Mag7:2
    DPS loss to spread and accuracy: 9.33%

    ----------

    M39 at 2 tiles with 300 rounds base stats of weapon: 0 misses
    Mag1:0 / Mag2:0 / Mag3:0 / Mag4:0 / Mag5:0 / Mag6:0 / partial Mag7:0
    DPS loss to spread and accuracy: NONE

    At 4 tiles range the spread and accuracy issues of the M39 actually make it have less DPS than the M41 so the effective range of the M39 is actually closer to 3 tiles.


    ---MAGAZINE EFFICIENCY---


    Full Auto with a full magazine of M41 will last 8 seconds, full auto with an M39 will last 6.24 seconds. Let's run some more funny numbers using the same stipulations above and non-ap, All calculations will be rounded up to the nearest bullet:

    Carrier 650 HP:
    M41: 15 rounds (37.5% of a mag) / M39: 20 rounds (41.66% of a mag)

    Runner 230 HP:
    M41: 6 rounds (15% of a mag) / M39: 7 rounds (14.5% of a mag)

    Spitter 550 HP:
    M41: 16 rounds (40% of a mag) / M39: 20 rounds (41.66% of a mag)

    Ravager 650 HP:
    M41: 26 rounds (65% of a mag) / M39: 37 rounds (77.08% of a mag)
    with AP; M41: 20 rounds (50% of a mag) / M39: 28 rounds (58.33% of a mag)

    Queen 1,000HP:
    M41: 40 rounds (full mag) / M39: 56 rounds (full mag + 16.66% of another mag)
    With AP; M41: 31 rounds (77.5% of a mag) / M39: 42 rounds (87.5% of a mag)

    Defender 500HP:
    M41: 30 rounds (75% of a mag) / M39: 46 rounds (95.83% of a mag)
    with AP; M41: 16 rounds (40% of a mag) / M39: 24 rounds (50% of a mag)

    I'm not going to run through every caste. But glancing at the above numbers it's obvious that the M39 is less ammo/magazine efficient except when killing runners.


    ---LET'S PONDER SOME THINGS HERE---


    How many of you can confidently say you can do 7.5 clicks per second consistently? Sounds kinda difficult huh? How about 5 per second? Sounds comparatevly easy doesn't it? Now maintain that amount of clicking while you are tracing a moving target, 2.5 clicks per second more is 50% more clicks in a second comparatively. Imagine you are not doing optimal clicking, suddenly the M39 (17% more at best) DPS drops off and the M41 is superior. In fact if you are unable to get at least 6.4 clicks per second consistently than you are doing less DPS with the M39 100% of the time.

    With the weapons listed above the M41 has oh I dunno over 5 times the accuracy of the M39 and 3 times less spread. Even at max optimal range the M41 manages to hit all it's shots while losing none to spread or accuracy. The M39 on the other hand, at it's max optimal range it misses 28.33% of it's shots, at 3 tiles it's 9.33%. It isn't until it's within 2 tiles does the M39 not lose DPS to spread or accuracy issues. Funny enough the M39 doesn't even do more dps at 4 tiles range isn't that hilarious?

    The edge of your vision is 7 tiles the optimal range of the M41, the optimal range of the M39 is 4 tiles, with 1 tile of falloff on the M39 you lose 8 damage per bullet which is enough to be weaker than an M41 100% of the time. Nanus provided damage table confirms this.

    Using the M39 Optimally will get you in best case scenario 35.32 DPS (spitters) more than the M41. The M39 AP mag does 19.56 more DPS than an M41 AP mag and HV is still actually worse at killing defenders and warriors with the updated calculations(isn't that just funny how math works?). At screen edge the M39 actually does 0 damage with AP.

    The M41 can use the U7 Under Barrel Shotgun, the Mini Flamethrower, the Under Barrel Extinguisher, and the Under Slug Grenade Launcher. The M39 cannot use any of these and is unable to use the Verti grip for some random ass reason, even after continual nerfs it still cannot use the attachment which I feel was LITERALLY MADE FOR THE M39.

    The M39 does not slow you down while wielding the weapon. The M41 does slow you down while wielding. This is actually a pretty amazing thing about the M39 and I do not want to undersell this. It allows you to stay closer to a xeno for longer while chasing to get in more damage. Now imagine you have a broken foot from a scummy lurker, perhaps you have some pain from a spitter hitting you with acid, maybe you got pulled by a Prae since you're up close and it got a few hits off on you. Suddenly it's harder to close with xenos quickly and it's easier for them to escape your optimal range. With the M39 you are relying more on your speed to close and maintain effective range and every slow down lowers that time, compared to the M41 being slower is less of an issue as anytime a xeno is within open sight of you you can be projecting effective damage. This problem is even more striking when you take into account you have to be closer than 4 tiles to utilize greater DPS with the M39.

    One should also consider the amount of time a target is within effective range. If a xeno is charging the front line, attacking, and then retreating to safety that can effect DPS as well. Hypothetically let's assume it takes a Praetorian .5 seconds for it to close to within 3 tiles, 3 seconds of them attacking, .5 seconds for them to retreat past 3 tiles, and 1 second for them to retreat past vision range with you giving chase for a total of 5 seconds. With the M41 you can utilize the full 5 seconds, with the M39 you are really only able to utilize 3.5 seconds in this instance. So while the DPS of the M39 can be higher than the M41 the overall damage that the M41 can do efficiently can be higher over time. These numbers are purely hypothetical and should not be taken as concrete, but the method is sound, higher DPS can be offset and eventually overcome by a longer time of applying a lower DPS. This can be even more apparent if taking into consideration xeno abilities. Such as Spitters attacking from range (you get NO DPS HERE), Defenders tail sweep, Ravagers spike shield, Burrowers AOE stomp, etc. Many abilities are designed to be used close to your target and punish close range where the M41 can apply damage before the xeno gets close and uses an ability that disrupts your DPS then after it retreats, the M39 must be close to utilize effective DPS as a whole. Note that there are far far far too many variables to give accurate calculations and this section should be taken with a pound and a pinch of salt.

    While the M39 may be less effective in a straight away engagement I do want to point out a situation where the M39 is more effective and that is with corner fighting and certain niche uses. While the M41 may do more dps in the provided example above it does not in a situation where a xeno may appear and retreat from around a corner within effective range. The uptime of effective DPS in this instance is the same for both weapons and the M39 would win out in short bursts of close quarters combat. Another niche but often overlooked function of the M39 is the existence of the arm brace. Using the arm brace, you can effectively strap the weapon to a hand and have it be ready even if you are floored and get up, the M39 will be ready for shooting immediately after standing, whereas using the M41 would require you to pick up and wield the weapon to be effective.

    Being less magazine efficient means you will have to reload more with the M39, not only that but it also empties its clip faster which means you have less up time to suppress and provide assisting fire for allies. You are shooting within 4 tiles of a xeno with the M39 to be doing optimal damage. How does reloading when a xeno is close to you sound? If you are in the front of a push and are spraying like a mad lad, you have to reload more often than an M41 user which a xeno can take advantage of. Oh, hey, you also need to carry more magazines to remain combat ready for longer since you burn through them at a faster rate. Also, with more space devoted to magazines that leaves less room comparatively for utilities such as grenades, healing items, flares, etc.


    ---CONCLUSION---(Did I mention I fucking love math)


    There is a lot more that the math tells us than simply that the M39 deals more DPS than the m41 in close range and should be taken when planning on such. That would be false information indeed and a disservice to bright eyed PFCs coming fresh off the meat wagon.

    You get less flexibility mainly due to attachments which limits the strategies you can apply (shotgun for stun and flanking, flamer for area denying, grenades for kill securing and versatility), uptime since you have to carry more magazines as well as having your clip empty faster, and ease of use since you have less than half the effective range and need to take into account mobility (including the pitfalls of traps, terrain, and the fact that many xenos need to be close to use their abilities), when you use the M39 over the M41 with only slightly better DPS (just under 17%) in optimal conditions when compared to the M41.

    Now for my completely unbiased assessment: The M41 is superior, throw a Master key on that baby, BOOM, it's now the most based weapon to ever exist for a PFC. The M39 is a noob trap, it's garbage and it needs some love.


    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
    ---------- TLDR: DA FUQ ARE YOU STILL USING AN M39 FER, ITS FOOKIN' TRASH MATE! ----------
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^


    Did I miss-calculate something? Is something wrong with my thought process? Was there an oversight somewhere in my judgement? Am I an idiot? Tell me in the comments below.
    Last edited by Santiago Delgado; 01-14-2022 at 03:33 AM. Reason: More Math, editing so it looks less ass, corrected fire rate, added more math
    "We are the slayers of kings, the destroyers of worlds, bringers of ruination and death in all its forms. These things we do in the name of the Emperor and in the defense of Mankind. Let none stay our wrath."

    "Brothers! War calls you. Will you answer?"

    By thy colour will he know thee,
    By thy banners will he fear thee,
    By thy standard will he dread thee,
    Cry Marine, and let slip the weapons of war.



  2. #2
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    Good work mod team for shutting the thread down where i was telling everyone it was fucking useless. I didn't even need to do this much math to instantly know that you guys nerfed the weapon into unviability without even trying to add back its old attachments.

    Stop spreading false information.

    The M39 still deals more dps than the m41 on close range.
    Last edited by ObsidianCrow; 01-08-2022 at 08:39 PM.
    Felicity Bringh and XYZ

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    Ancient Member Tails of Akira's Avatar
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    @Nanu308
    how will you recover from this
    Former Mentor. now literally doesn't exist
    Some dipshit moved my cryosleep post to general not mad or anything just confused.

    Zdraviya Zhelayu, Kapitan

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    Head Developer Nanu308's Avatar
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    M39 In-game:
    Semi-automatic firerate: 461 RPM (7.69 per second), not 7.5.

    If you are arguing that very few can reach/click that amount that is entirely different and i will not consider it in this reply as this can vary between each person.

    Secondly attachments are very rarely considered for the balance of the base gun as they are limited by design to change/buff etc. due to their limited availability.

    The M39 is meant to be used up close and personal, not at further range such as the rifle, and due to this, it has around 16% more dmg within its range compared to the rifle.

    I also don't get why you are tying in injured marines as an example, the m41 still slows you down, the m39 does not, you just have a lower base speed due to the nature of your injury. The entire post you made is shifting the goal posts into what if's situations of "but in this particular instance the m39 is worse and m41 is better".

    The matter of the fact is that the m39 is meant to deal more damage up close than the rifle, which it does, and deal less damage on further ranges compared to the rifle, which it does. You are entirely free to disagree in thinking the gun should behave this way but you will just have to deal with it.


    Regardless of that, here is a snippet of the math i did back then when i tweaked the values around.
    8X0rH0p.jpg

    J4LEFjJ.jpg
    Head Developer & Marine Law Maintainer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanu308 View Post
    M39 In-game:
    Semi-automatic firerate: 461 RPM (7.69 per second), not 7.5.

    If you are arguing that very few can reach/click that amount that is entirely different and i will not consider it in this reply as this can vary between each person.

    Secondly attachments are very rarely considered for the balance of the base gun as they are limited by design to change/buff etc. due to their limited availability.

    The M39 is meant to be used up close and personal, not at further range such as the rifle, and due to this, it has around 16% more dmg within its range compared to the rifle.

    I also don't get why you are tying in injured marines as an example, the m41 still slows you down, the m39 does not, you just have a lower base speed due to the nature of your injury. The entire post you made is shifting the goal posts into what if's situations of "but in this particular instance the m39 is worse and m41 is better".

    Regardless of that, here is a snippet of the math i did back then when i tweaked the values around.
    8X0rH0p.jpg

    J4LEFjJ.jpg
    I don't think you understand how marine utility works at all. Why the fuck would I lug around an m39 that has worse accuracy, no underbarrel attatchments, and injures way more marines with the optimal ammo box loadout for what? 40 measly more damage at close quarters when I can smell xeno breath? That is not nearly enough to bridge the gap between the versatility, utility and range of the m41a. The speed boost is nice but you know what gives you that? THE L42 WITHOUT THE STOCK. So if you want the speed boost just take the l42. Please if you're going to make the m39 good again just restores its old values to where it is basically useless at more than 4 tiles but shreds at 4 tiles. Otherwise you just created an expensive paper weight that is basically completely useless except in extreme edge cases (just pb the runners lol).

    The matter of the fact is that the m39 is meant to deal more damage up close than the rifle, which it does, and deal less damage on further ranges compared to the rifle, which it does. You are entirely free to disagree in thinking the gun should behave this way but you will just have to deal with it.
    Again it DOESN'T do enough damage to make up the difference. Why are you so stubborn about this, think of this as an opportunity to make the m39 shine instead of just the nerf into the ground. Add back the old attatchments. Maybe make it do 1 damage beyond 4 tiles IDK do SOMETHING with it. I usually like to watch robust people in observer. A few months ago there was a health mix between mou, mk1, mk2, pumps, and m39. Now its just mk1 mk2, pumps no m39. Theres no reason to take it. The measly 40 more DPS at 4 tiles and the movement speed is not nearly enough to make up for its down sides. please take the L and move on. I think the amount of work that went into this post is enough to show that people think the m39 is dogshit. IDK how you're not swayed by it. Also the math in the snippet is not a substitute for OP's giant synopsis and analysis.

    (7.69 per second), not 7.5.
    LOL
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    if you use the m39 you don't have to worry about people looting you since they won't want it haha

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    Ancient Member Tails of Akira's Avatar
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    I'm just gonna stick with my M46C and Mateba thank you very much
    Former Mentor. now literally doesn't exist
    Some dipshit moved my cryosleep post to general not mad or anything just confused.

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    Primordial Member CABAL's Avatar
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    BYOND lag - How fast you can click doesn't matter. Did someone just seriously said that 7.69 clicks per second can be reliably achived in CM? I can reliably achieve around 8.5 CPS when using click speed test over 5 seconds. That is rather the best case scenario, where mouse stays in the same position. If I try to lead the mouse alongside clicking, it goes down to 7 CPS. This is made to simulate trying to hit a moving target.
    Surely BYOND and CM during normal pop round on Whoresat, or other laggy map will let me (and anyone else) click till my finger goes sore without any unregistered "happy little accidents".
    REDEMPTION

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    Junior Member Spider's Avatar
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    When you want to use something at that close of a range. You use the shotgun anyway and combo the xeno. As it stands. The M39 is in too awkward of a spot to be worth using. Since it's trying to muscle in on the shotgun's turf. The thing the M39 had going for it, imo, was the ability to plink at xenos if you had to. It was a flanker's weapon. And I liked that.
    Trey 'Bingus' Graham: Certified Deltard. Vehicle crewman/PO when blue tribe is full

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    Member FoxyShibata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanu308 View Post
    M39 In-game:

    I also don't get why you are tying in injured marines as an example, the m41 still slows you down, the m39 does not, you just have a lower base speed due to the nature of your injury. The entire post you made is shifting the goal posts into what if's situations of "but in this particular instance the m39 is worse and m41 is better".
    He's using injured marines as an example because you say yourself

    The M39 is meant to be used up close and personal, not at further range such as the rifle,
    And the point is that staying 'up close and personal' against a xeno is fucking hard. It carries way more risk than being at the 7 tile vision range that an M41 works with, any number of things, from weeds, injuries, bodyblocking, sent spray, etc can slow you down and make it so that the xeno who you're 'up close and personal' with can either escape, or pick you off for free.
    It doesn't matter that having a broken leg or a lot of pain also slows you down with the M41, it matters that getting slowed down with the m39 hurts you a whole lot more.
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