Removing MP Protections (As a MP Main)

[Aces]

Thanks for expanding on your thoughts, it's actually really useful when people go a little more in-depth.

I think a lot of the issues with the reworks usually is that a lot of the time, the reworks have to go through layers such as actual code changes, then be approved by staff, then have to be explained to the community if, for example, we added better MP investigation tools, many may see that as an MP buff, rather than working towards having MPs have to require more evidence regarding crimes, which as a result, would likely open the door to things such as the corrupt MPs suggested by the MP/MT combined rework.

Hell, even important things such as the flash, the recorder, and JAS(MP detainment console) and broken/buggy. Fortunately we have forest and an odd dev here and there who are kind enough to spend time fixing things that aren't a quick fix for us, but there is only so much time they can spare.

I've always thought expanding the role so MPs can assist on overwatch (IF no SOs are available) or increasing the population slightly so they can, for example, escort a researcher to the colony to gather corpses/materials/ect, would be a way to vitalise multiple departments rather simply, without requiring many, if any code changes.

I mean, that's a neat idea and all. But the counterpoint here.

We could just hard delete the military police role and put something more useful instead. Leave military police for the occasional ERT. Like this role has been in a failure state for about two years now? Maybe, three?

At this junction no matter what you do to it. People will still see it as a trash role that for the most part even though you and a couple of other people are actually decent people overall view it as a genuine nuisance instead of anything capable of adding to RP barring you know the atmosphere.

[solidfury7]

I mean, that's a neat idea and all. But the counterpoint here.

We could just hard delete the military police role and put something more useful instead. Leave military police for the occasional ERT. Like this role has been in a failure state for about two years now? Maybe, three?

At this junction no matter what you do to it. People will still see it as a trash role that for the most part even though you and a couple of other people are actually decent people overall view it as a genuine nuisance instead of anything capable of adding to RP barring you know the atmosphere.

It would require a huge shift in the servers direction and a larger undertaking for staff to maintain.

More OOC enforcement, the removal of big chunks of roleplay, escalation, mutinies, no shenanigans shipside, or depth to the game beyond shooty tooty TDM.

It is a tired old saying, but it is incredibly easy to avoid arrests, it is why the people who are generally arrested (outside of interference) are usually the same few people.

[CABAL]

...
More OOC enforcement...

Common missconception.

The ammount of required staff intervention would not increase, I would argue that it would even decrease.
Lets go trough all of the Marine Law charges and how staff would/wouldn't handle them when there are and there isn't any MPs.

Damage to Government Property when there is no MPs:
If it isn't like massive scale wall removal, it doesn't interfere with the round like at all. If it is that, you slap them with cading yourself before xenos hijack. Literally thats all.
Big shit is already covered in rules as not allowed and admemes have to intervene.
If MPs are present: The same.

Insubordination with no MPs:
SLs and other higher ranking marines are required to obey orders by rules, so if they refuse, you have to intervene. If PFCs disobey, it doesn't matter, with, or without MPs you don't do anything.
With MPs: You might turn a blind eye once on some SL disobeying valid orders if MPs get him, but you have to intervene if he does that on a regular basis.

Contraband with, or without MPs: Speaks for itself, no OOC enforcement was ever given to marines for having a contraband.

Failure to Follow Procedure: Applies basically only to MPs themselfs failing to follow their own procedures, sometimes command opens armories before red alert, but thats already OOC issue as it is power/metagaming. Without MPs, less OOC enforcement would be needed.

Hooliganism: Minor shit is literally meaningless, forcefeeding, or knocking on a window does nothing. Anything major is already prohibited by the rules and admemes have to intervene.
"Major shenanigans that may disrupt the normal flow of the round at roundstart, (This includes but is not limited to; big or lethal fights, briefing brawls, riots, massive equipment restrictions and tackling players trying to reach their prep room.), are not tolerated."
With, or without MPs, this happens regardless.

Trespassing: Doesn't matter, admemes ever had to ping someone, because he was tresspassing into medbay, or some other stupid shit like that?

Intoxication: If its PFC, doesn't matter, if it is someone higher ranking, its considered a waste of role if this somehow severly impacts their ability to do their job (outside a bit harder to understand speech, but not harder than some stupid stereotypical accent).

Theft: If it is something important, already OOC enforcement required, if not, nobody cares.

Disrespecting a superior Officer: Literally doesn't matter, was somebody even pinged for saying bad things about high ranking marines that rule 3 don't cover?

Disorderly Conduct: Major shenanigans, already covered in the rules. You might turn a blind eye once, but if this happes on a regular basis, you have to intervene.

Subterfuge: Pretty much might happen only during events, so RP fluff, OOC enforcement is required when admeme creates a scenario where this might happen.

Neglect of duty: Most of it already covered in rules, MPs can't even really chase head of staff who went on a trip planetside outside FoB.

Assault: Escalation rules are already in place. If escalation was improper its OOC issue with, or without MPs.

Prevarication: Either command (requires fax to HC, so OOC), or MPs themselfs. Remove MPs, less OOC.

Manslaughter: Same as assault.

Assault with a deadly weapon: Same as assault.

Illegal Confinement: OOC issue with, or without MPs.

Cruelty to Animals: Doesn't matter. Oh no, marines killed the stupid cat! Anyway...

Sexual Harassment: OOC issue with, or without MPs.

Jailbreak/Escape: OOC issue that would not exist if MPs wouldn't too.

Insanity: Rule 2, so its always OOC, on top of basically being only used in events.

Attempted Murder: Same as assault.

Murder or Unauthorized Execution: Always OOC issue.

Sedition: Always OOC issue.

Desertion: Not deploying is already against the rules. You can't desert in any other way outside events.

As one could clearly see, entire Marine Law and MPs could be removed and this could even decrease the need for OOC enforcements in best case scenario. In worst case scenario you have to get involved a bit more in some situation, but have 0 problems with "Failure to Follow Procedure", so this evens things out.
The best MPs provide in terms of reducing OOC enforcements is allowing admems to turn a blind eye once for something minor.

However I do agree with the rest (outside shenanigans). Dead, rotting carcass of RP would suffer even more, probably.

Also, the "tired old saying" breaks itself from inside. If not only for those supposed few who usually are arrested, MPs would have absolutely nothing to do. A bored MP breeds shitcurity MP, that roams the ship, thirsty for the slightest "offence". Rex Texas being here an example of CM in the past.
There is other "tired old saying" and it goes: "Those, who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it".

[Tails of Akira]

@silencerpl @silencer_pl
please enlighten us in your CMP ways

[Aces]

It would require a huge shift in the servers direction and a larger undertaking for staff to maintain.

More OOC enforcement, the removal of big chunks of roleplay, escalation, mutinies, no shenanigans shipside, or depth to the game beyond shooty tooty TDM.

It is a tired old saying, but it is incredibly easy to avoid arrests, it is why the people who are generally arrested (outside of interference) are usually the same few people.

I don't think at this junction. It's not that big of a shift. Like Cabal did an okay job in covering the OOC enforcement. While I do not agree with all of it I think he kinda has gone out of his way to unintentionally spell out while they're in a failure state. The reality is that Role does not add to roleplay. You and maybe one to two others are the exception to this statement but even then a decent eggs don't really justify buying a rotten dozen. It has nothing to do with the ease to avoid arrests. It's that over the years the military police has become a role that has become un-needed by staff rule changes and honestly only really kept a float by staff protection. There was even a time I would have believed the Military police was a good role. Back in the day when Charlie breakfast meant "Hey, we're kidnapping an Alpha or Delta. Lets gooooo." Or the old squad culture from years ago which was at times akin to a gang war.

I think at this point? Dude, it's past the point of trying to justify having the dead weight around as is. The only thing that deleting them would get rid of is simply the brig time. You know, the time most either spend sassing the military police or sitting in a bed while their timers go down. Nothing of any value will be lost. The rules and the community mentality changing have made the military police irrelevant. There's no depth being added, you could sell me on the argument that potentially under the right circumstances they could. But for the most part, people who try to argue for military police adding to roleplay at this junction or being needed to stave off those nasty nasty OOC staff enforcements have already beaten the dead horse, turned it into a steak, consumed it, and are now trying to sell us that their horse is alright and totally not been digested years ago.

So for the direction, we're pretty much there already. For the staff undertaking, it may be initially. But likely not anything long-term.

[Spider]

MP's literally have no place on current CM, they exist to take up playerslots and a good 50% of the upper floors of the ship. Why do they need so much? They essentially just AFK waiting for someone to tase, process them, and then give them 30 minutes after telling them they get an appeal. (An appeal which, 9/10 times, will not be accepted). As it stands, just give the CO an honor gaurd and the CiC some brig cells to put dumbasses in timeout. You don't need an entire department for what essentially amounts to AFKing and waiting for MTs to bully you.

[Papa_Pollard]

I will say its concerning how much focus staff and development wise MPs get. Its completely disproportionate to what it should be and seems to take priority over roles and aspects of the game that heavily need reworking or improvement/purpose (MTs, Crusher & Medbay).

To further add to this theres also an increase in OOC oversight and enforcement from rule changes.

Anyway thesoldier will most likely just make MP posting on forums illegal

[Kugamo]

The amount of protections they get while interacting with other players is ridiculous, none of their equipment can be used against them and some of it stuns those who try, they get IFF to tase through eachother, full comms on every channel to listen to everything, arbitrarily reinforced doors and walls around the brig, if anyone tries to stop an arrest at roundstart they get OOC punishments, and they can even subvert CO orders and call evac with no repercussion. It is neither fun for the arrestee or those arresting, wheres the challenge? The role has become a way for staff to hand down punishments to players and so with that no pushback is allowed from the arrestee or from those around them. With the move for IC punishments for rulebreaks the line between staff and MP has been blurred, and I think its the reason behind the powercreep. IC justice shouldnt be compared to or have any purchase on what staff think players deserve OOC for their actions imho. I think the majority of the playerbase would accept OOC punishments for ML if it meant MPs being being removed entirely, or at least brought back to the same playing field as the rest of the roles.

[Valo]

this was literally done with the only issue being MP mains causing trouble because thier role was removed

[Tails of Akira]