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Thread: Observations About POs Post-Fire Missions and a Serious Suggestion

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    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    Observations About POs Post-Fire Missions and a Serious Suggestion

    If you're here looking for my suggestion, skip down below the small link.

    Alright, as some people might remember, a few months back I made a post about how abysmal POs were for the longest time and how they desperately needed some attention from the devs. Fire missions came out as the first part of the CAS rework and I've been watching/playing PO a fair number of rounds and I think I can finally give a proper opinion on the situation and how fire missions have impacted it. Fire Missions on their own give POs more of an impact in the round and let good CAS POs pull the Marines up by the bootstraps when they're against the wall. The issue is, things are still so expensive (it takes 6,100 points to replace the roundstart gear that was removed) and the point reimbursement and accumulation is so low (you get about 5,000 points roundstart and one point every two seconds) that the smallest mistake in printing or launching the CAS dropship down (and losing one or more weapons) means dropship operations annd CAS are severely hamstrung for the rest of the round.

    This is made all the more pressing when Xenos can currently call down the CAS dropship at any time, which means even if the POs carefully manage their point totals and don't screw up, they can still have the dropship stolen out from under them and, even if they somehow manage to prevent the ship from being locked down on the surface and get back to the ship, they've most likely lost over 2,000 points worth of weapons and 900 points or more on ammo, not counting the medevac system. If something like that happened, the parts would NEVER be replaced because even before this there'd barely be enough points to print off replacement ammo if all of it was used.

    However, the main issue is when we compare my complaints and issues with the PO role from pre-fire missions with post fire missions. Of all the complaints, only the one about how a large number of POs don't play it long due to lack of things to do has changed for certain. People actually aren't guaranteed a PO spot anymore, but the thing is... most of the POs are still as bad, if not worse, than before. This is my observations over the last 1-2 months (Any video I put in is most likely from Athena Blackburn):

    POs will often shout dibs on the CAS bird while many are suffering from roundstart lag. From my experience, no amount of shouting, shaming, or arguing will discourage some of them. I've also heard that some POs will make up stupid and childish "rules" for who gets to be the CAS pilot, like it being that the first person to get to a Power Loader gets it. Bad POs are using the dibs system to decide who gets put in charge of something that can level an entire Marine squad.

    In spite of the aforementioned low point restriction (it might seem like a lot, but remember that the cheapest ammo costs 100 points and the cheapest gun costs 400, but the cheapest gun/ammo combo is 550 points) POs will still burn points on things that were worthless for a long time (LZ detector), are now completely worthless (laser detector, spotlights on some maps), or seemingly serve no purpose for fire missions (the targeting system). Even my dual GAU/dual minirocket setup, which I use because it's the cheapest setup to still provide a decent spread and damage, costs 2000 points and 1600 more are spent to give each dropship a fuel enhancer and cooling system (we get one of each roundstart for free, but they cost 800 apiece). This leaves 1400 points left, which isn't enough for Transport to buy two turrets and will only print one resupply of ammo for all of the CAS weapons. Even when it's made clear that we can't waste points needlessly, Transport will often burn points on things like a GAU or even a rocket pod that it can't even use while on transport, costing us precious points we don't have. Some CAS pilots will also knowingly waste points on things they know don't have a use because they like the look of them. Not only that, but anyone, from a random survivor to the CO, can print anything from the part fabricator, allowing random people to soft grief the POs by wasting their points on stuff they'd never print themselves.

    A lot of bad POs set up fire missions that make no real sense and even launch them in ways that only hurts the Marines. Athena has recorded numerous examples of this.

    Some CAS POs refuse to use the new system and don't tell Marines this, or Transport decides to play as "light CAS" instead. This results in things like this:
    https://streamable.com/4ffpf

    As much as it pains me to say it as a PO main, fire missions haven't done anything to improve the situation. If anything, they've made it worse for two simple reasons: most bad POs are incapable of self-regulating and Command isn't willing to provide the needed oversight to prevent wastage. Bad POs are still bad POs and make mistakes that are even more costly now, while often refusing to let someone help them or even let more experienced POs fly CAS.

    We're reaching a point where I feel that POs need to be held to a higher standard, either icly or oocly. Right now I can see four options.

    1. Command can take a more active stance in controlling the situation. This could range from simply assigning specific POs specific duties to designating one PO as having "seniority" and having the others listen to them. This is the least likely to happen consistently and least likely to have results.

    2. Rules could be established to try to mitigate the damage bad POs can do to the Marines and settings could be changed, ranging from making it so that the designated CAS dropship defaults to flyby after every flight and letting parts be recycled for points to rules against deliberately strafing friendlies or printing things that benefit the dropships in no way. This one would probably deal with the potentially soft-griefing issues from bad POs, but wouldn't solve all the problems and with the effort involved would practically be the same as...

    3. Making PO a whitelisted role. This is the one I'm most against, but the ooc oversight required to mitigate all the issues with it as mentioned above would make this the logical conclusion if the second option is taken.

    4. A new role, a Flight Officer (FO), could be added to manage the Hangar and POs. This is the one I'm leaning towards most, both because it allows ic regulation without CIC interference and creates a role responsible for handling the logistics of later parts of the CAS rework. The FO's role would, basically, be to serve as the PO's equivalent of the CE or RO. They would assign POs to specific tasks, help train/teach new POs how to operate, educate POs in the CAS system, monitor the dropships' ammo and condition, coordinate with other departments to ensure minimal downtime, pilot the dropships if there's a shortage of POs, and, most importantly, regulate point usage.

    When a FO is on duty, they might have the ability to allocate points for specific things, such as locking the Transport pilot out of burning points needed for CAS or ensuring a certain minimum number of points for ammo resupply. They might have the ability to restrict buying certain things so the fabricator requires their approval to print them. When Boilers can hit the dropships doing fire missions and gunship mode (whenever that's added), the FO would be responsible for getting engineering staff to the hangar to fix the damage.

    In the end, the Flight Officer could theoretically resolve a lot of the issues the PO role has right now. The issue then becomes, if it was added, would it be a role anyone with zero experience could grab? Or would it be whitelisted? Regardless of how you feel about the idea of adding more whitelisted roles, I feel that we're approaching a point where it might not be avoidable with the PO situation if you want to minimize the potential for killing large groups of Marines.

    What's your take on this?
    Last edited by FGRSentinel; 02-26-2019 at 02:38 PM.
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

    Goddard Pearsall, the Pilot that (almost) always has Souto

    Unofficial source of help for new/inexperienced POs. Message me here or on Discord if you'd like advise on anything.


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    FO sounds cool.

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    Sup

    Probably out of all people, you expect me to reply here.

    Job on this is not yet done, see Gunship mode and AA.
    As for FO role - it will be there, eventually, when marines will have proper hangar and tech (like fighters and shit) and a2a combat is even assumed to happen.
    Transport PO's are currently the bane of the PO role. And so is the amount of PO's. I think making just 2 PO's or having 4 PO's man 2 fighters and 2 dropships might be a better idea.
    As for supplies. I'm still thinking about making req spawn ammo for the dropships.

    Also, I call dibs on CAS every time I get to do it, and I'm probably good at it. What we need is probably to bwoink bad CAS pilots that do mistakes like you shown. That mistake is akin to making supermatter loose - grief by malicious decision not to learn shit.

    We can have a talk about this later

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    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    Neth, as a PO I have to say having all ammo come from Req with the ship's current loadout would make things even worse. If Req was right next to the hangar (ie, swapping Medbay with the hangar, then reversing the current Brig-Briefing-Req layout so the hangar's between Medbay and Req) it'd work out, but as it stands, the distance to travel from the hangar to Req and back again with a Power Loader makes ammo transport a long, tedious process where you'd be unlikely to get the CTs to help and MTs can't even get into Req, so someone would have to walk down to Req with an MT in a power loader as the best-case scenario.

    As for the FO suggestion, the thing is that since Fire missions were added I often find myself slowly drifting into playing PO like that anyways, so there's occasionally someone unofficially filling that kind of role as it is.
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

    Goddard Pearsall, the Pilot that (almost) always has Souto

    Unofficial source of help for new/inexperienced POs. Message me here or on Discord if you'd like advise on anything.


  5. #5
    Senior Member Steelpoint's Avatar
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    Possible solution for that could be a ""conveyor belt"" system that lets cargo ship ammo (and ammo only) from cargo directly to the hanger.

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    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    I'm not too sure about that. With how Req's set up with ASRS, Req would have to buy standard Marine supplies, Tank ammo, and CAS ammo while not really having enough points for it. We'd have the issue we have with DEFCON 5's reward now: POs are believed to waste ammo and it's better to give the extra points to Req. If Dropship ammo needed to be bought from Req when they have limited points like they do, they'll most likely prioritize FOB materials, then the tank, then everything else, then the dropships if they feel it'd be a waste of points. My opinion is that putting ammo resupply in the hands of someone else means CAS will probably likely be hamstrung by that, especially if the cost increases like with everything else.

    If those issues could be resolved, the simplest solution for ammo transport would be to just bring back the hangar elevator that used to raise the Tank up, but have it that the dropship ammo would go up on that elevator instead and be pushed off by something.
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

    Goddard Pearsall, the Pilot that (almost) always has Souto

    Unofficial source of help for new/inexperienced POs. Message me here or on Discord if you'd like advise on anything.


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    I think it would be a mistake adding dropship ammo to Req's plate. With the amount of supplies they're getting by default, it can be difficult to even manually order anything. Most of req's time is spent just handling what's already coming in while managing points related to the ground game. They already have to work around supply priorities that a large portion of players depend on (spec ammo, medical equipment, special weapons, building materials, weird shipside requests). Making another department (and more players) dependent on their competency could really screw over the POs if there's an underperforming req crew.

    I think it's more valuable to give POs the role of managing their own munitions so they can better control the logistical chain to act on their own strategies. If we do add another tier to dropship logistics, I think it should be given to a role strictly related to air support in general, like the FO job already suggested. I think it might be more logical to integrate MT responsibilities into an expanded logistical chain for drop ships, where their assistance might boost fabrication production or they have their own supply pool they can divert to support POs. The shipside engineering department would benefit from having more jobs to attend to, as they're not nearly as busy as Req is during a normal round. Ultimately, I think that being able to acquire the basic supplies needed by POs should be within their own ability since they're such a critical component of a successful marine operation. Giving engineering tasks to enhance their abilities would be cool, but making such an important role entirely dependent on a separate department to work properly could really screw over their rounds.

    I'm a Req/MT scumbag regular I could go on forever
    Last edited by ColonelCorazon; 02-26-2019 at 05:12 PM.

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    Whitelisted Captain FGRSentinel's Avatar
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    Athena has brought another bad PO to my attention. They didn't even call anything in before they got vaporized:

    https://streamable.com/xsa0t
    Retired CO Councilor (Winter 2019-Spring 2020, Winter 2020-Spring 2021)

    Goddard Pearsall, the Pilot that (almost) always has Souto

    Unofficial source of help for new/inexperienced POs. Message me here or on Discord if you'd like advise on anything.


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    yeah, that was a bad one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NethIafins View Post
    bwoink bad CAS pilots that do mistakes like you shown. That mistake is akin to making supermatter loose - grief by malicious decision not to learn shit.
    fun fact: nobody caught this on video that I know of, but the same guy made the exact same mistake in the exact same spot like 5 minutes later. We had a flare down right where that laser was, told him to fire at offset 12 east, and he just fired it dead on again and blasted the line. I know because it hit me both times.

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