Xeno Mutator discussion

[CABAL]

The problem with no maturation is what level do you balance xenos at? Before mutations t1 xenos werent even very good at ancient. t3 are trash at young. Do you make everyone mature and t1 are now useless? Do you do it for each tier differently? It makes things alot different. Marines land and there are 8 t3 that are as strong as they ever gonna get, what do you think xenos do instead of delay to get older? They gonna rush you instead and good luck fighting all those t3 at once. No fast healing equals xenos dying. You would have to give them something else or they automatically lose without fast healing.

In a system where you get to absorb material or whatever does it only work on kills? That makes captures less valuable. Does it work after you capture them? It delays the time before you get your "req points". Does the whole hive get the points or the person who killed them? That makes newbies get nothing if its personal. Does each xeno get the points if its shared or does the queen buy stuff for one person like req does? Queen favoritism in the later.

The problem is you are talking about redesigning the entire xeno gameplay when you yourself said you dont even have faith that they will boost your guns anytime in the next few months.

"Marines land and there are 8 t3 that are as strong as they ever gonna get, what do you think xenos do instead of delay to get older? They gonna rush you instead and good luck fighting all those t3 at once. No fast healing equals xenos dying. You would have to give them something else or they automatically lose without fast healing."

This part balances itself. You can have 8 cocky T3's that are the strongest as they can be, but marines are also at their finest and every dmg counts. If said T3 would receive massive dmg and was barerly alive, then in order to heal, he would have to return to the original hive/outpost hive that has something/someone who can heal him (Like special pheromones emmited by Queen/Drones who pick special mutator/something else).
Xeno got more than 50% of health dmg? Only way to heal is to go back. Less than 50%? Just lie on the weed's node like you can do now on any weed title.
One stupid mistake on xeno's side and you are back to the base for healing. Just like walking a mile in marine's boots (roller beds).
With this any of the sides can't just simply order: "Fight/Rush", becouse they will get demolished without tactics. But you can indeed order: "Distract main forces, while we will perform flank".
Finally! Tactics that work against both sides! No more Blitzkrieg! Back to WWI, but with modern twist speeding things up a bit. Boiler even works as artillery by the way.

Current mutator system makes T1 very powerfull. Even mature defender can pick health and armor, this means that he can withstand large amount of fire.
Young xenos for like 100 ticks, then cap their power level on between mature and elder (maybe allow them to "mature" after 90 minutes to Ancient"). Straight boost for fresh xenos. Sentinel with speed is super hard to catch, with plasma mutator it's literal neuro machinegun. Drones can indeed combat hug, they can build hive and they are not intended to fight directly on frontlines. Runners can also "turn on" their super sanic speed, good luck PB'ing something that can't even slash you, but many will try to shoot anyway = FF.

Those "points" would be shared among whole hive as a one pool. They would be used for anything xeno-related. From healing major wounds (below 50%) by creating something specific (special liquid seen in comic starring Dr.Church trapped in Hive for example), to changing into another caste.
Weeds would distribute them, so they would gain more importance for xenos. Marine's bodies wouldn't be a major factor for those points (they would be a neat little boost to the area they are lying on). Plants/heat/resources covered and "captured" by weeds would produce them. Basically an RTS style harvesting.
Cool stuff that adds tactics to xenos gameplay and they need something fun to do besides fighting.

[kastion]

"Marines land and there are 8 t3 that are as strong as they ever gonna get, what do you think xenos do instead of delay to get older? They gonna rush you instead and good luck fighting all those t3 at once. No fast healing equals xenos dying. You would have to give them something else or they automatically lose without fast healing."

This part balances itself. You can have 8 cocky T3's that are the strongest as they can be, but marines are also at their finest and every dmg counts. If said T3 would receive massive dmg and was barerly alive, then in order to heal, he would have to return to the original hive/outpost hive that has something/someone who can heal him (Like special pheromones emmited by Queen/Drones who pick special mutator/something else).
Xeno got more than 50% of health dmg? Only way to heal is to go back. Less than 50%? Just lie on the weed's node like you can do now on any weed title.
One stupid mistake on xeno's side and you are back to the base for healing. Just like walking a mile in marine's boots (roller beds).
With this any of the sides can't just simply order: "Fight/Rush", becouse they will get demolished without tactics. But you can indeed order: "Distract main forces, while we will perform flank".
Finally! Tactics that work against both sides! No more Blitzkrieg! Back to WWI, but with modern twist speeding things up a bit. Boiler even works as artillery by the way.

Current mutator system makes T1 very powerfull. Even mature defender can pick health and armor, this means that he can withstand large amount of fire.
Young xenos for like 100 ticks, then cap their power level on between mature and elder (maybe allow them to "mature" after 90 minutes to Ancient"). Straight boost for fresh xenos. Sentinel with speed is super hard to catch, with plasma mutator it's literal neuro machinegun. Drones can indeed combat hug, they can build hive and they are not intended to fight directly on frontlines. Runners can also "turn on" their super sanic speed, good luck PB'ing something that can't even slash you, but many will try to shoot anyway = FF.

Those "points" would be shared among whole hive as a one pool. They would be used for anything xeno-related. From healing major wounds (below 50%) by creating something specific (special liquid seen in comic starring Dr.Church trapped in Hive for example), to changing into another caste.
Weeds would distribute them, so they would gain more importance for xenos. Marine's bodies wouldn't be a major factor for those points (they would be a neat little boost to the area they are lying on). Plants/heat/resources covered and "captured" by weeds would produce them. Basically an RTS style harvesting.
Cool stuff that adds tactics to xenos gameplay and they need something fun to do besides fighting.

You say marines are at their finest when they first land but they arent. They arent organized and have no fob, and no tcomms or power and no idea what the aliens are doing. They have to establish themselves before they are at full power. Good luck setting up power when t3 are already fighting you the moment you land.

Im telling you, you have to compensate xenos for not being able to heal fast. Having to retreat all the way to the hive to heal below 50% means xenos lose the entire map in 5 minutes and are backed into a corner. It wont work.

T1 are not that powerful even with mutators until they are atleast elder. Defender may be tanky but it aint doing much else besides getting shot at mature. You are thinking of ancient t1 power level but saying mature. A mature t1 sucks dick. They arent good. The t1 that are wrecking you are ancient with 4 mutators.

Like I said you dont even have faith they will modify marine weapons in the next few months, why do you have any faith they would ever do all this and not completely screw it up?

[CABAL]

You say marines are at their finest when they first land but they arent. They arent organized and have no fob, and no tcomms or power and no idea what the aliens are doing. They have to establish themselves before they are at full power. Good luck setting up power when t3 are already fighting you the moment you land.

Im telling you, you have to compensate xenos for not being able to heal fast. Having to retreat all the way to the hive to heal below 50% means xenos lose the entire map in 5 minutes and are backed into a corner. It wont work.

T1 are not that powerful even with mutators until they are atleast elder. Defender may be tanky but it aint doing much else besides getting shot at mature. You are thinking of ancient t1 power level but saying mature. A mature t1 sucks dick. They arent good. The t1 that are wrecking you are ancient with 4 mutators.

Like I said you dont even have faith they will modify marine weapons in the next few months, why do you have any faith they would ever do all this and not completely screw it up?

I don't have faith, I'm just posting propositions that will be ignored anyway. Untill there is a massive "outburst" of opinions (like it was a case with body dragging, or smartgun currently) nothing will change. Nothing that I will say, nothing that you will say. It's just here to boost that counter under our Nicknames.

Marines have the most potential when Alamo touches the ground, FoB and T-Comms are fast and easly achievable in few minutes. Squad comms don't kill xenos, barricades don't kill xenos, large amount of marines without wounds and fully kitted out are the force that kills xenos.

There is a rule against LZ camping, there could be also added something against "metarushing" marines like: Xenos can't try to storm LZ first 5 minutes after landing (only if that landing occured 12:15-12:35). Then it's free game. Here we go, fair chance for marines to build FoB and break any camping xenos nearby by OB strikes and mortar.

Xenos could still heal on their normal rates above 50% health mark (maybe still using their "points", but at lesser extent). Point of this is to discourage brainless rush of several T3's, where ones wounded below 50% mark can just stay back for a minute while others keep the pressure. How marines are not losing all map in 5 minutes when they have to go surgery after getting IB/damaged organs/multiple broken bones/etc? Xeno below 50% mark is still able to fight, but he is weaker (just as splinted marine will fall after few weak slashes). Maybe adding healing up to 49% of health and then from 51% to 100%. You get wounded below 50% of health? Too bad xeno, you just got equivalent of broken bones that autosplint. Fight still, or retreat on your own to get fast "surgery".

T1's shouldn't be powerfull alone. I'm quite sure that with mutators any mature T1 can beat two marines with standard pulse rifles alone. It's ok. For better effects: Team up with other xenos.
Single xeno shouldn't be like hot swiss knife against butter marines. Even young T1 can easly kill single marine (outside drone without facehugger). That's enough power, single fast, deadly, armoured and though being can defeat other being by pure stats. Everything else is just using last bits of braincells to score a kill.
Single T1 should like never be able to kill 3 decent marines alone. Escape from them? Indeed, but not kill, nor capture.

[kastion]

T1's shouldn't be powerfull alone. I'm quite sure that with mutators any mature T1 can beat two marines with standard pulse rifles alone. It's ok. For better effects: Team up with other xenos.
Single xeno shouldn't be like hot swiss knife against butter marines. Even young T1 can easly kill single marine (outside drone without facehugger). That's enough power, single fast, deadly, armoured and though being can defeat other being by pure stats. Everything else is just using last bits of braincells to score a kill.
Single T1 should like never be able to kill 3 decent marines alone. Escape from them? Indeed, but not kill, nor capture.

they really cant man. Mutators increased xenos by like 5-10% 1 stat for each mutator. at young you get 1 mutator at mature you get 2. You are barely different than old young and mature. If t1 kills 3 marines those 3 marines are fucking trash dude. You are way overestimating how strong t1s are even with mutators. Seriously go try some of the stuff you are saying. Be a young t1 alien and go fight someone even just a 1v1.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

The only Young T1s that can actually 1v1 marine is Sentinel with lucky neuro RNG (you don't even have the neuro fire rate to stun lock and you run out of plasma after 6~ spits) and young Drone hugger combat

[CABAL]

I wasn't talking about Young T1's. It's clearly written.
It's not "barerly" different from pre-mutator xenos. Everyone is taking health and speed mutators when they are mature and this is a big buff. Any T1 can easly outrun any marine in standard armor. Any T1 can easly heal.
The only 1vs1 combat scenario a xenomain can think of is direct combat on one screen? It's clearly wrong. There is darkness on the whole map not for the sake of spookyness. Xeno can hide everywhere, two seconds and it's not on your screen, lurking in darkness, where it can heal and pick the right moment. Simply choosing to rush head on and clicking on a marine is not fun in terms of fighting and it's thankfully not that vialable. Ambush, stalk etc. Xenomorphs, not Zerglings.

[kastion]

I wasn't talking about Young T1's. It's clearly written.
It's not "barerly" different from pre-mutator xenos. Everyone is taking health and speed mutators when they are mature and this is a big buff. Any T1 can easly outrun any marine in standard armor. Any T1 can easly heal.
The only 1vs1 combat scenario a xenomain can think of is direct combat on one screen? It's clearly wrong. There is darkness on the whole map not for the sake of spookyness. Xeno can hide everywhere, two seconds and it's not on your screen, lurking in darkness, where it can heal and pick the right moment. Simply choosing to rush head on and clicking on a marine is not fun in terms of fighting and it's thankfully not that vialable. Ambush, stalk etc. Xenomorphs, not Zerglings.

Piachu himself said that mutators give 5-10% improvement. There are 4 basic stats, speed, damage, health, and armor. You get 1 mutator per upgrade, a max of 4. There are mutators that do other things besides those 4 basic stats. If however you take all 4 of those basic stats you will have 5-10% more stats than pre mutator. T3 will never get all 4, t2 will sometimes get all 4, and t1 will always get all 4. You are saying that mature t1 can stomp marines 2on1 no problem, they are only getting 2 mutators which means a maximum of a 2.5%-5% increase in base stats. That is not very much dude.

As far as darkness marine lights are 5-6 tiles the screen is only 7 tiles. They can see pretty much everything around them. Only lurkers can hide on weeds, no other xeno has that ability. Runners can sometimes hide under things but it has to be big enough to obscure the runners sprite. You can ambush people around corners but a lot of maps are just long hallways or wide open areas so that doesn't matter.

I can 1on2 with an ancient runner without ambushing, but not everyone can do that. I still die all the time to cuckshot because it just takes 1 lucky shot while I have to seriously outplay you to defeat you 2on1. Cuckshot takes no skill whatsoever, I can get on marine right now and kill an alien with cuckshot and I only play marine about 5% of the time. I killed a carrier sunday 1on1 with cuckshot and carrier is easy to 1v1 people because you can just face hug them.

This game is WAY more skill dependent than yall think it is. I don't want to call you bad, but you seriously underestimate how much better the xenos are than you when they style on you 1on2 or 1on3. You think xenos take no skill but you are completely wrong.

[Dolth]

Oi I can 1v1 anyone as a young runner!!

[kastion]

Oi I can 1v1 anyone as a young runner!!

We mean win 1v1. Not just fight them.

[Dolth]

Ikr. I'll teach you at some point if you want kaston.

[RuAlastor]

We mean win 1v1. Not just fight them.

with queen speed mutators you can 1v1 any marine, but for flamers with runner, if you're robust

[Dolth]

The flamer has a long ass cooldown, bait and dodge the first hit, pounce thne pushes away toward the flames if you can while slashing.

Just careful if you pounce first, the wield delay is 0.5 sec. They might just stand up and roast fast.

[KingKire]

Piachu himself said that mutators give 5-10% improvement. There are 4 basic stats, speed, damage, health, and armor. You get 1 mutator per upgrade, a max of 4. There are mutators that do other things besides those 4 basic stats. If however you take all 4 of those basic stats you will have 5-10% more stats than pre mutator. T3 will never get all 4, t2 will sometimes get all 4, and t1 will always get all 4. You are saying that mature t1 can stomp marines 2on1 no problem, they are only getting 2 mutators which means a maximum of a 2.5%-5% increase in base stats. That is not very much dude.

As far as darkness marine lights are 5-6 tiles the screen is only 7 tiles. They can see pretty much everything around them. Only lurkers can hide on weeds, no other xeno has that ability. Runners can sometimes hide under things but it has to be big enough to obscure the runners sprite. You can ambush people around corners but a lot of maps are just long hallways or wide open areas so that doesn't matter.

I can 1on2 with an ancient runner without ambushing, but not everyone can do that. I still die all the time to cuckshot because it just takes 1 lucky shot while I have to seriously outplay you to defeat you 2on1. Cuckshot takes no skill whatsoever, I can get on marine right now and kill an alien with cuckshot and I only play marine about 5% of the time. I killed a carrier sunday 1on1 with cuckshot and carrier is easy to 1v1 people because you can just face hug them.

This game is WAY more skill dependent than yall think it is. I don't want to call you bad, but you seriously underestimate how much better the xenos are than you when they style on you 1on2 or 1on3. You think xenos take no skill but you are completely wrong.

Okay, stats are relative, and in any game, depending on how close the needle is to a balanced game, something like 5-10% can be a penny in the ocean, or the weight of an elephant on a mouse. The diffrence can be phenomonal

Having 5-10% bonus in 4 diffrent stats can mean an amazing diffrence. some stats dont really care about a 5-10% difference, while others that are used constantly can add up to make a whole lot of diffrence over time. A free penny a year gives you a dollar, a free penny a day gives you 36 dollars, a penny an hour etc.

There are also break points in games, where a single digit of difference can cause dramatically different results in an activity. Point blank shotguns work because you have to be within *single* tile range of the weapon, not 1 tile more. The death of most xeno all happen once they break that final Crit threshold and stay immobilized for several seconds or till death. Mines used to be able to critical damage young runners/lurkers etc. meaning, most xeno had to double team to save each other from mine explosions. This promoted team work with success, and tended to shit on people who lone wolfed defenses *which was most xeno, who knew*. giving a 5-10% hp boost can tip that threshold



Speed: Most games are known for their roll-outs, to the point that even the *tinest* advantage in speed can shift a meta completely ( Carrying your knife out in Counter strike used to give you a tiny speed boost, League of legends +5 move speed out of standard 250 made massive differences, esspecially since the ability to chase a character to give the final killing blow could be decided by inches, In colonial marines: Double shotgun buckshot used to be a *super competitive* build, until armor was nerfed to give 10% less speed, as well as Hyperzine.

Light: marine lights are actually 4 tiles wide at their best, this includes carrying flares, and flashlights. Rail lights are the only equipment that give 6 tiles of light, with the tube light giving 8 tiles.


TLDR: a single 5-10% stat boost can change the meta heavily, having 4 of those in a short amount of time without nothing holding it back is a *dramatic* change to say the least. Xeno are getting sloppy, to the point of doing stuff so reckless and ill thought out, that only the most *glaringly obvious* fuckups are punished. I.e a queen decided to go full ham solo against 10 marines, and *BARELY* dies or barely makes it out alive. Thats something that goes against the spirit of the game, and probably shouldn't be encouraged or at least re-evaulated to see if this is the new spirit of CM.

edit: its also xeno get *7* upgrades, the queen gets 3 global upgrades for the hive, and regular xeno get 4. So were getting about 35-70% more xeno in *TOTAL* (in TOTAL: i.e if you see 35 xeno, your on average looking at the equivalent of 52-70 xeno in pre-mutator numbers) just by raw stat points alone. Not including the multiplier efficiency of having *everyone* get boosted, instead of just 1 person.

[kastion]

snip

Most of your post is just big ole what ifs with no actual evidence of anything being op. You are just like well it could be op cause it could make them survive with 1 hp. Seriously all of that doesnt mean anything you cant argue it because its just hypotheticals that we dont know if they even exist. So what if xenos have more speed, the only ones its op on are lurkers and elder ravagers. It makes runners worse cause they are too fast to do anything accurately. The rest of the xenos needed a speed buff because its bullshit that marines could outrun or keep up with most xenos before the mutators.

Also you dont even need to pointblank with buckshot to wreck a xeno, thats just bonus. You can easily mess a xeno up with a shotgun from 2 tiles away maybe 3 if you get lucky. 2 tiles away the main shot and an extra buckshot or 2 will almost always hit and still do crazy damage. Mines were nerfed before mutators because they are fucking stupid and unfun to play against just like traps and eggs hiding in fences.

I was off by 1 on the light, doesnt change the fact a rail flashlight gives 6 tiles of light. If you dont want to take a rail flashlight because you want another attachment then you obviously dont value light that much and therefore shouldnt complain about it. Either way marines have other marines and flares and everything around them to the point everything is lit up 24/7 unless they just unga into a cave without throwing flares.

I dont think you understand math at all. Not to mention the fact that you just assume the queen has 3 mutators and everyone else has 4 which like I said before wont happen except for t1 and occasionally t2. The queen wont get 3 mutators until the round is getting close to ending anyways. So you are realistically looking at 6 mutators for t1, 5 for t2, and 4 for t3 for most of the game. Like I said 4 mutators is a TOTAL of 5-10% more base stats not 5-10% x 4. An ancient t1 with an elder queen is 7 mutators and if all of those go into base stats that is 8.75% to 17.5% more base stats. Ya thats a significant boost but its not the equivalent of having 70 xenos when theres only 35 like you some how magically came up with. Yall seriously just pull shit out of your asses sometimes. All of these numbers are based on people ONLY picking speed/damage/health/armor which almost never happens. People take things like pull speed, pheromones, acid, blah blah blah. Queens also take pheromones, maturation, more larva, crap that isnt base stats. Yall just like to pick out 1 single scenario and scream its op and act like thats how EVERYTHING is. If xenos were so op marines wouldnt win a single match, yet they have won several when ive been on and I havent even played that much this week.

[KingKire]

I dont post evidence because its still a little touchy to post Time to kill/armor/damage charts and other data on the forums. Ill pm you what stats and charts i have for CM, and you can then at least tell me that im an idiot and i dont know anything after looking through what i know.

[CABAL]

blah blah snip blah blah

"So what if xenos have more speed, the only ones its op on are lurkers and elder ravagers."
Hehe. Does it need explaining? So what that benos are faster? It's not like marine in armor can't catch up anything besides maybe boiler. Even crusher can just escape after short pursuit. Xenos can escape faster, so they have better survivability, without speed mutator xeno has bigger chance to get that one random bullet to crit it, with speed mutator xeno can dodge everything by "zigzagging" and still be outside screen. Speed isn't just "speed". Oh! You are faster... Nothing else. Speed works with other stats.

"It makes runners worse cause they are too fast to do anything accurately."
Like runners job was just slash marines at any point in time. They have their pounce, they have their push, they have their speed that you nearly can't PB them and any bald marine will just shoot, despite marines around. Runner is like a fly, fly that when "elder" can withstand walking on fire and few bullets.

"The rest of the xenos needed a speed buff because its bullshit that marines could outrun or keep up with most xenos before the mutators."
WAT? What beno besides young boiler and crusher is slower than marine in armor? Are you going to include marines without armor that two slashes will fuck up completly? Those marines that one acid spit will slow to the crawl?

"You can easily mess a xeno up with a shotgun from 2 tiles away maybe 3 if you get lucky."
Yeah, one buckshot worth of dmg and short stun will fuck any xeno up. Even if this was the case (which isn't and wasn't before mutators either), single xeno should be fucked up by weapon designed for CQC. Stun from buckshot doesn't matter when more xenos are coming after you.

"Mines were nerfed before mutators because they are fucking stupid and unfun to play against just like traps and eggs hiding in fences."
Slashing marines after hugging/combat hugging is fun and it requires 200+ IQ in comparsion? Lame, cheeze tactic that involves abusing hugger stun is perfectly fine? I bet it is for xenomains. No other death is more infuriating than being combat hugged and then slashed to death. Even RNG decap from ravs and crushers isn't that bad.

"I was off by 1 on the light, doesnt change the fact a rail flashlight gives 6 tiles of light. If you dont want to take a rail flashlight because you want another attachment then you obviously dont value light that much and therefore shouldnt complain about it. Either way marines have other marines and flares and everything around them to the point everything is lit up 24/7 unless they just unga into a cave without throwing flares."
If everything is so lit on the map, then why we even have all that darkness? Just make it a day, since every marine is a walking sun of light and darkness doesn't exist where they are.
If you value your xeno life, you should always pick sentinel to not be PB'ed. If you are not choosing sentinel, then you obviously don't value ranged stuns that much and therefore shouldn't complain about PB.

"All of these numbers are based on people ONLY picking speed/damage/health/armor which almost never happens. People take things like pull speed, pheromones, acid, blah blah blah."
Defenders only pick acid, pull speed and pheromones, nothing else. Warriors the same. Crushers? Also. Sentinels? They need that pull speed and pheromones so much.
Point of mutators was to "Specialise" in something. Drone can do it. He can boost his plasma, pheromones, acid and pull speed to be ultimate untility xeno, but the point is that he is still pre-mutator xeno with added those things.
Attachements: *Exist*
Guns: *NERFED WIELDING DELAY BECOUSE A-GRIP*
Give all marines BC, LS, RDS and A-grip. It's just 5-10% of Dmg boost, nothing much, right? It doesn't mean anything and you don't have evidence that 10% boost to dmg means anything.

"If xenos were so op marines wouldnt win a single match, yet they have won several when ive been on and I havent even played that much this week."
Sometimes xenos are just bad and marines are just good (and decent players rolled specs/docs/important roles).


Xenos just got more fun.
It's all bullshit.
"...briefly feeling like a god" as a marine.
It's more like "... constatly feeling like a pushover with brief moments when benos are bald".
65% +/- 5% could be some percentage for a strong drink, not a competitive gameplay on combat server.

[Dolth]

I dont post evidence because its still a little touchy to post Time to kill/armor/damage charts and other data on the forums. Ill pm you what stats and charts i have for CM, and you can then at least tell me that im an idiot and i dont know anything after looking through what i know.

Careful with the stats/damage/armor and everything's chart. Dunno how you got that but as far as I know it's highly forbidden to establish numbers around CM mechanics and especially to share them. Got a note for that.

[KingKire]

Okay, check it... new game: "1250 or 1330".

Either the marines win hard by killing the xeno queen by 1250, or they will get xeno-rolled by 1330. Im seeing how many games fall under those two parameters but, the results are stacking pretty nicely up.

[kastion]

Okay, check it... new game: "1250 or 1330".

Either the marines win hard by killing the xeno queen by 1250, or they will get xeno-rolled by 1330. Im seeing how many games fall under those two parameters but, the results are stacking pretty nicely up.

I bet its a pretty high amount, like I said in an early post they messed the game up trying to speed it up. Im sure there are rounds that last 2 hours still but I wouldnt be suprised if most rounds are decided by an hour and then the rest is just cleanup duty for either side.

[kastion]

I dont post evidence because its still a little touchy to post Time to kill/armor/damage charts and other data on the forums. Ill pm you what stats and charts i have for CM, and you can then at least tell me that im an idiot and i dont know anything after looking through what i know.

Unless you are calculating it all yourself I dont think most of it will be right. I know they stealth nerf and buff things and dont tell us all the time. So if the info you have is from the leaked code its probably all been changed atleast a little by now.

[StephenNelson]

Okay, check it... new game: "1250 or 1330".

Either the marines win hard by killing the xeno queen by 1250, or they will get xeno-rolled by 1330. Im seeing how many games fall under those two parameters but, the results are stacking pretty nicely up.

Seconding this. Rounds are really fast now. Usually decided by 13:00. Mutators are in a good place now though, not too op, but still add a bit of specialization to xeno.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Honestly, the only mutations that need to be looked at are Speed+Drag Speed+Wider Gas.

_ Speed is self-explanatory. It's SS13 combat, which means whoever has more speed and more stuns win if they can land their stuns. Especially when personal Speed mutations can be stacked with Hive Mutation that the Queen choose, it kinda breaks the balance. 2x Speed Crusher with max charging speed is the same back when they had their movement speed borked and Frenzy triples their max charging speed (even if you're not charging, you're still fast enough to dodge every attempt to body block and punish you). Lurker and Prae with 2x speed (Prae can have its own Frenzy) are basically as fast as Ancient Runner (basically a better version of the Runner because Lurker/Prae has way better health+armor+damage). Drone with 2x speed and its own boosted Frenzy can be at Ancient Lurker speed; which brings a lot of salt combined with combat hugging.

_ Drag Speed is also simple to understand. Every Tackle/Neuro that lands mean that your victim can be dragged away 6-7 tiles from their original location without any downside to yourself (and you can keep on spamming tackle/neuro to drag them even further). When even armorless marines have issues chasing down a drag speed upgraded Elder Runner dragging someone, it's kinda a big issue. Overall the Drag Speed mutation is too good for speedier castes, so I can understand if a nerf or outright removal of it is implemented for stuff like Sentinel/Drone/Runner/Lurker.

_ Wider Gas is also easy to understand. It's simply too big of a boost that somehow makes your acid bombard be able to cover half of a normal Big Red LZ1 FOB. Combined with the 15% chance to go past the cades and Boiler getting its bombard radius bigger with age; the Wider Gas mutation is simply too oppressive to leave it like it currently is.

So yeah, once those get nerfed, I will feel that mutation is finally balanced. I don't really see any big issue with the other mutations, and some of them are kinda weak with how few mutations you can get. "More Leader" is kinda meh, since Queen can only take 3 mutations (games are too short even for Elder Empress, let alone Ancient Empress). "Faster Maturation" is pretty bad too since it saves like 320 ticks for Ancient T3s, and with games on average being shorter, you don't save that much, to begin with. "Faster Weed" is pretty meh too since you can just supplement that with "Increase Plasma" mutation that increases your plasma storage/regen instead.

[kastion]

Honestly, the only mutations that need to be looked at are Speed+Drag Speed+Wider Gas.

_ Speed is self-explanatory. It's SS13 combat, which means whoever has more speed and more stuns win if they can land their stuns. Especially when personal Speed mutations can be stacked with Hive Mutation that the Queen choose, it kinda breaks the balance. 2x Speed Crusher with max charging speed is the same back when they had their movement speed borked and Frenzy triples their max charging speed (even if you're not charging, you're still fast enough to dodge every attempt to body block and punish you). Lurker and Prae with 2x speed (Prae can have its own Frenzy) are basically as fast as Ancient Runner (basically a better version of the Runner because Lurker/Prae has way better health+armor+damage). Drone with 2x speed and its own boosted Frenzy can be at Ancient Lurker speed; which brings a lot of salt combined with combat hugging.

_ Drag Speed is also simple to understand. Every Tackle/Neuro that lands mean that your victim can be dragged away 6-7 tiles from their original location without any downside to yourself (and you can keep on spamming tackle/neuro to drag them even further). When even armorless marines have issues chasing down a drag speed upgraded Elder Runner dragging someone, it's kinda a big issue. Overall the Drag Speed mutation is too good for speedier castes, so I can understand if a nerf or outright removal of it is implemented for stuff like Sentinel/Drone/Runner/Lurker.

_ Wider Gas is also easy to understand. It's simply too big of a boost that somehow makes your acid bombard be able to cover half of a normal Big Red LZ1 FOB. Combined with the 15% chance to go past the cades and Boiler getting its bombard radius bigger with age; the Wider Gas mutation is simply too oppressive to leave it like it currently is.

So yeah, once those get nerfed, I will feel that mutation is finally balanced. I don't really see any big issue with the other mutations, and some of them are kinda weak with how few mutations you can get. "More Leader" is kinda meh, since Queen can only take 3 mutations (games are too short even for Elder Empress, let alone Ancient Empress). "Faster Maturation" is pretty bad too since it saves like 320 ticks for Ancient T3s, and with games on average being shorter, you don't save that much, to begin with. "Faster Weed" is pretty meh too since you can just supplement that with "Increase Plasma" mutation that increases your plasma storage/regen instead.

I don't think everything needs to be removed or nerfed for everything. Just remove speed mutator from lurker/runner/drone/whatever else but leave it for everyone else. Make wider gas into faster spreading gas so it starts doing damage sooner but doesn't take up more space. Remove drag speed boost from runner leave it for everyone else that wants it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing it can be customized for each caste to balance them and remove the stuff that is broken on certain castes.

honestly don't think speed is op on drone though, drones are easily killed even if they are fast. Just PB them once and they are toast if anyone else helps you shoot at them.

[OatzAndHoes]

Rock/Paper/Scissors balance has always been terrible.

The best balance comes from everything being OP. That way yes, you can die, but good players can also kill reliably. That's the difference between a shotgun and an M41.

Then the skill comes out, not from using the weapon, but getting into the position where you CAN use the weapon. For example, warrior's lunge is fantastic and very powerful - essentially a guaranteed kill on a lone marine. Do it in a group of marines and you're dead though.

That's what risk/reward actually means, but it's not what most xenos have now. There's way too much reward for way too little risk on the xeno side, and way too little reward for way too much risk on the human side. Or to put this another way - xenos getting more abilities and higher damage isn't a bad thing, but more health and speed is - and right now marines need to deal more damage than they presently do (or xeno health/speed needs to be nerfed from what it currently is) to keep the two sides more balanced.

I agree with this mostly, but weapons and castes still need counters for eachother. Counters can only be used effectively with teamwork and communication. For example if a runner starts passing around your group trying to draw friendly fire you need a smartgunner, or if a flamethrower is holding you off you need ravs to take him out.

[Ranged66]

Drone build:
Speed, pheremones, health, armor (with queen mutators: Speed and optionally pheremones)

Once elder you can just run up to fully manned barricades with frenzy on, slap a marine with a facehugger and walk away without any trouble. You move at runner speed with double pheremone frenzy + double speed mutator.