More Marine Law Changes

[Rahlzel]

A sizeable number of Marine Law changes have just gone out and a few more are likely to follow. This is a reminder to everyone to keep an eye on Marine Law as we continue to iron it out. Something that was allowed one round may not be allowed the next and vise-versa.

Registering on the Wiki and Watching the Marine Law and Rules pages will ensure that you're saying up-to-date.

It looks like radio buttons for the revision history aren't showing up for some reason. I'll see about fixing that. In the meantime, here's a summary of changes just for today. Oldest changes are at the bottom:

Code: Select all

(→‎Laws and Punishments: Adding "with ill intent" to "Assault" as well, since punches can also happen accidentally)
(→‎Laws and Punishments: Slight tweak to "Punishment" paragraph at the top: "...except Resisting Arrest which can be optionally added on to any charge")
(→‎Laws and Punishments: Added "with ill intent" to the "Assault with a deadly weapon" law in order to differentiate accidents.)
(→‎Laws and Punishments: "Improper Equipment Usage" improved to cover all potential gearing-up areas)
(→‎Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer: Making MP action against ACOs even simpler.)
(→‎Laws and Punishments: Allow CMPs to reduce timers given by other MPs.)
(→‎Laws and Punishments: "Interfering with an arrest" maximum changed from "Same punishment as accused" to "Permanent confinement" to help deter this happening so often. Trespassing law tweaked to prevent CLs editing their access...publicly.)
(→‎Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer: MPs can no longer arrest the acting CO without High Command approval. Hopefully this will balance power between ACO and MPs a bit better.)

[Nantei]

The hero we need, but don't deserve. Keep it up, Rahl. <3

[Royal Griffon]

our lord and savior has arrived, the prophecies were true!
gasps

[TehSpoderman]

CMessiah!

[Dauntasa]

"(→‎Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer: MPs can no longer arrest the acting CO without High Command approval. Hopefully this will balance power between ACO and MPs a bit better.)"

While I like this in general, there is a bit of a loophole problem here that I can think of. So, the other day as an LT I was a ringleader in a massive mutiny against command. I'm reasonably certain that my co-conspirators managed to kill the CO, the XO and all the other LTs. I, however, got shot in the face and captured by MPs during the CIC shootout. Basically, if you take a literal reading of this and the chain of command, at some point during my detention and later escape from the brig I became the aCO as the only surviving Command Officer. With these rules the MPs would have suddenly lost their legal authority to do anything to me after I had been largely responsible for murdering every other Command officer on the ship. They would have had to let me go. This seems wrong, and it should possibly be clarified that someone who becomes aCO by murdering everyone who outranks them doesn't count.

[Rahlzel]

"(→‎Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer: MPs can no longer arrest the acting CO without High Command approval. Hopefully this will balance power between ACO and MPs a bit better.)"

While I like this in general, there is a bit of a loophole problem here that I can think of. So, the other day as an LT I was a ringleader in a massive mutiny against command. I'm reasonably certain that my co-conspirators managed to kill the CO, the XO and all the other LTs. I, however, got shot in the face and captured by MPs during the CIC shootout. Basically, if you take a literal reading of this and the chain of command, at some point during my detention and later escape from the brig I became the aCO as the only surviving Command Officer. With these rules the MPs would have suddenly lost their legal authority to do anything to me after I had been largely responsible for murdering every other Command officer on the ship. They would have had to let me go. This seems wrong, and it should possibly be clarified that someone who becomes aCO by murdering everyone who outranks them doesn't count.

I think this actually makes things more interesting, and just because MPs need to contact High Command doesn't mean they've lost legal authority, it just takes a little longer (of course, assuming High Command is online and listening). It could be that High Command decides your cause was the best for getting the mission done and decides to put you in power, or the response is for MPs to keep you in the brig and promote someone else.

[FearTheBlackout]

The only sad part of this is that I can't enjoy enforcing it myself!

[Davidchan]

I think this actually makes things more interesting, and just because MPs need to contact High Command doesn't mean they've lost legal authority, it just takes a little longer (of course, assuming High Command is online and listening). It could be that High Command decides your cause was the best for getting the mission done and decides to put you in power, or the response is for MPs to keep you in the brig and promote someone else.

There Needs to be something in Marine Law about the CMP or whoever is running the shindig contact and inform the CO if they perceive the COs actions as violating Marine Law. In reality, this should apply to all MP arrest requiring them to verbally state the infraction and all charges giving the person a chance to voluntarily surrender or dispute the charges in the case of wrongful arrest attempts. While exceptions to this are obvious, such as the offender violently resisting or evading MPs, 90% of all MP arrests and actions I've seen would have gone much smoother if the MPs themselves gave some god damn common courtesy that is expected of their real life counterparts, rather than bursting in the room and tasing/batoning people before dragging them off to the brig without saying a word.

[Rohesie]

Rahl, what the hell is wrong with you? Each time I check on CM there's one great change after the other. The salt industry will go to bankruptcy without their mines!

[Skimmy2]

There Needs to be something in Marine Law about the CMP or whoever is running the shindig contact and inform the CO if they perceive the COs actions as violating Marine Law. In reality, this should apply to all MP arrest requiring them to verbally state the infraction and all charges giving the person a chance to voluntarily surrender or dispute the charges in the case of wrongful arrest attempts. While exceptions to this are obvious, such as the offender violently resisting or evading MPs, 90% of all MP arrests and actions I've seen would have gone much smoother if the MPs themselves gave some god damn common courtesy that is expected of their real life counterparts, rather than bursting in the room and tasing/batoning people before dragging them off to the brig without saying a word.

The Arrest Procedure already states all of what you said?
I agree that some MPs dont follow proper procedures, but they already are suppose to inform them of their crimes and order them onto the floor as the very first action.
Hopefully some good CMPs can whip the MPs into shape and discipline them more.

[Blade2000Br]

There Needs to be something in Marine Law about the CMP or whoever is running the shindig contact and inform the CO if they perceive the COs actions as violating Marine Law. In reality, this should apply to all MP arrest requiring them to verbally state the infraction and all charges giving the person a chance to voluntarily surrender or dispute the charges in the case of wrongful arrest attempts. While exceptions to this are obvious, such as the offender violently resisting or evading MPs, 90% of all MP arrests and actions I've seen would have gone much smoother if the MPs themselves gave some god damn common courtesy that is expected of their real life counterparts, rather than bursting in the room and tasing/batoning people before dragging them off to the brig without saying a word.

This is part of procedure, but the MPs can state the charge while processing the prisioners on brig. Sadly, it gets harder to state charges when you are going to arrest somebody because they always A. Run like maniacs to the frontlines/somewhere B. Rush inside a group of marines that proceed to beat the MPs down. So I get how someone just wordlessly arrest and drag then to brig, as they can state the charges there.

Besides, if you want dispute s charge, you can always appeal. But people prefer to insult the CMP 26 times...

[Symbiosis]

This is part of procedure, but the MPs can state the charge while processing the prisioners on brig. Sadly, it gets harder to state charges when you are going to arrest somebody because they always A. Run like maniacs to the frontlines/somewhere B. Rush inside a group of marines that proceed to beat the MPs down. So I get how someone just wordlessly arrest and drag then to brig, as they can state the charges there.

Besides, if you want dispute s charge, you can always appeal. But people prefer to insult the CMP 26 times...

Compliant Suspect (not resisting or running)

1. Verbally inform the suspect you are taking them into custody and the charge.
2. Order the suspect to the ground.
3. Handcuff the suspect.
4. Bring the suspect to the Brig for processing.

If someone is running to the front lines just wait for them to get back. I don’t envision there was a time in Military history when MP’s were running into Fallujah and tazering Marines fighting terrorists because they told a LT to fuck off.

[Davidchan]

My point with the earlier post was that even before the MPs or CMP comes to the conclusion that a suspect has violated Marine law and should be arrested/demoted, they should do their utmost to inform the offending party of a potential violation before it happens.

Silent arrests are utter cancer and should be treated as violations of marine law. If an MP can't follow procedure, the arrest should be invalidated, just as a real life criminal can walk from charges of assault, drug crimes or sexual assault if the police botched the arrest and failed to read rights.

You can't repeatedly state MPs are a role that exist to enforce IC roleplay among Marines and then simultaneously do nothing to RP the role itself and power game their way to filling the brig with as many Marines as they can.

[Skimmy2]

My point with the earlier post was that even before the MPs or CMP comes to the conclusion that a suspect has violated Marine law and should be arrested/demoted, they should do their utmost to inform the offending party of a potential violation before it happens.

Silent arrests are utter cancer and should be treated as violations of marine law. If an MP can't follow procedure, the arrest should be invalidated, just as a real life criminal can walk from charges of assault, drug crimes or sexual assault if the police botched the arrest and failed to read rights.

You can't repeatedly state MPs are a role that exist to enforce IC roleplay among Marines and then simultaneously do nothing to RP the role itself and power game their way to filling the brig with as many Marines as they can.

I would argue that the Appeals Process already does this?
During an Appeal the CMP/aCO is meant to review all of the evidence and testimony of the crime, which would include the MP's report who made the arrest and the suspect's side of things.
If an MP cant follow proceedure then that is evidence against their ability to have made the arrest.

[Davidchan]

I would argue that the Appeals Process already does this?
During an Appeal the CMP/aCO is meant to review all of the evidence and testimony of the crime, which would include the MP's report who made the arrest and the suspect's side of things.
If an MP cant follow proceedure then that is evidence against their ability to have made the arrest.

How many CMPs do you know of that will believe a marine over a MP? How many CMPs will bother to call in witnesses to a supposed crime? How many staff members will take an ahelp from a brigged marine and respond with anything other than 'IC Issue'?

[Blade2000Br]

Compliant Suspect (not resisting or running)

1. Verbally inform the suspect you are taking them into custody and the charge.
2. Order the suspect to the ground.
3. Handcuff the suspect.
4. Bring the suspect to the Brig for processing.

If someone is running to the front lines just wait for them to get back. I don’t envision there was a time in Military history when MP’s were running into Fallujah and tazering Marines fighting terrorists because they told a LT to fuck off.

If you cannot inform the suspect because he run before you finish your sentence/he's threatning other marines pysically/is in a danger place that could harm the officer or the marine He can skip that and arrest him, stating his charges on Brig. He won't get a jobban because he didn't stated his charges right at the act.

And that I agree, no officer in his right mind should rush to the frontlines to catch a marine breaking the law. However, if he's on the FOB and danger is nearby, he can overlook certain steps as to not cause harm to the prisioner, other marines and the officer.

He can overlook, but he have to state, yes. If he didn't state on the brig, then something's wrong.

[Symbiosis]

If you cannot inform the suspect because he run before you finish your sentence/he's threatning other marines pysically/is in a danger place that could harm the officer or the marine He can skip that and arrest him, stating his charges on Brig. He won't get a jobban because he didn't stated his charges right at the act.

And that I agree, no officer in his right mind should rush to the frontlines to catch a marine breaking the law. However, if he's on the FOB and danger is nearby, he can overlook certain steps as to not cause harm to the prisioner, other marines and the officer.

He can overlook, but he have to state, yes. If he didn't state on the brig, then something's wrong.

No ones questioning non-compliant suspects.

It’s watching MPs walk up, stun baton, cuff, then drag away that’s the primary method of arrest.

Or cuffing while in surgery then stating the charge. Or tazering indiscriminately near the front.

The concern is Marine players are being arrested for technicalities by individuals who don’t follow the same technicalities themselves. I don’t know how better to simplify this.

[Davidchan]

Since when is it too difficult for MPs to declare or read charges to a cuffed suspect? If you're waiting to state the reason of the arrest till you've already managed to drag someone to the brig then you're failing to do your job worse than that marine you picked up for running around in his pajamas or told the RO to fuck himself.

Most of the Marines wouldn't attack or disrupt the MPs if the MPs made some kind of effort to show they aren't just looking to fuck up someone's round knowing that anyone who rightly defends themselves risk a ban.

[spookydonut]

No ones questioning non-compliant suspects.

It’s watching MPs walk up, stun baton, cuff, then drag away that’s the primary method of arrest.

Or cuffing while in surgery then stating the charge. Or tazering indiscriminately near the front.

The concern is Marine players are being arrested for technicalities by individuals who don’t follow the same technicalities themselves. I don’t know how better to simplify this.

There used to be a provision for MPs to secure a suspect first before reading the charges, that's gone now and people are likely still adjusting.

[FGRSentinel]

How many CMPs do you know of that will believe a marine over a MP? How many CMPs will bother to call in witnesses to a supposed crime? How many staff members will take an ahelp from a brigged marine and respond with anything other than 'IC Issue'?

Even more hilariously, CMPs won't let marines report crimes that are related to anyone who isn't a rank-and-file Marine. I've tried to report people for trying to start riots before and the CMP was willing to listen... until I named an LT as the person causing problems, at which point they just walked away without a word. Makes you wonder how many mutinies and riots were caused because the MPs or CMP get to pick and choose which crimes they let get through the reporting stage, let alone to the actual arrest, when accusations of SOs, XOs, and COs doing things that could trigger a riot/mutiny or are a gross misuse of power should be the most serious thing the MPs deal with.

On the other side of things, some MPs and CMPs are absolute hypocrites. Did you know some CMPs use their WO rank to override Ensigns in things unrelated to Marine Law? I had a round where, when the order to evac was given with me as a lone Alamo pilot, the CMP ordered every single MP onto the Alamo and consistently countermanded my orders to close the doors so they could be locked, ordering every single MP to keep as many doors open as possible when they weren't attempting to arrest anyone. When this inevitably led to the Xenos getting onto the ship while I was attempting to get the doors closed, the CMP had me arrested for neglect of duty.

The way I see it, CMPs are almost universally cancerous and the role legitimately needs to be whitelisted with very strict regulation. The fact that they can hide behind their WO rank to basically screw over whoever they want and often do nothing but cause trouble is ridiculous.

[Blade2000Br]

Even more hilariously, CMPs won't let marines report crimes that are related to anyone who isn't a rank-and-file Marine. I've tried to report people for trying to start riots before and the CMP was willing to listen... until I named an LT as the person causing problems, at which point they just walked away without a word.

If this actually happened, you should have ahelped. CMP can't ignore Major crimes. If the SO was doing sedition/Disorderly conduct, the CMP HAS to at least investigate the claims. At the absolute worst, he could find no evidence and brig you for prevarication. But CMPs can't ignore Major crimes being comitted.

[FGRSentinel]

I can't even remember who did it or when. It's sadly a major trend with CMPs from what I've seen, so much so that I've given up on even trying to report the crimes (perceived or otherwise) to MPs or the CMPs because they're more likely to spend the rest of the round pretending I don't exist than they are to actually do anything about it. Whenever an SO does something that can rile the marines into a mutiny or shows a gross neglect of duty, the boots can't report it without the MPs ignoring it. I recall a round where, as an SO, I actually leveled an accusation of sedition, insub, and Neglect of Duty against the CO to the CMP in person and they ignored I existed while a nearby MP threatened to arrest me for insub. I think part of the issue is that MPs and CMPs that play the role for the purpose of soft griefing the Marines like to pretend not to hear accusations of Command Staff violating marine law because letting shit run its course will almost always cause mass arrests and other shit that lets them do whatever they want without real punishment.

[Brotemis]

Military Police - The Chief MP must never commit any crimes in Marine Law, but can choose to ignore Minor Crimes done by other players.

This seriously needs fixed to address MP's as well. Server rule, not marine law.