The Occaisional Unreasonableness Due to Wording of Marine Law

[waswar]

Now, this may seem to be complaint post. In part, it is, but it's driven over the occasional unreasonableness that Marine Law spurs due to wording.

For example, we have this.

Jailbreak/Escape: To escape, attempt escape, or be broken out.

Now, this seems straightforward. However, it potentially creates a few absurd scenarios.

In the most recently ended round, for example, my character was arrested on a number of charges. Now, I feel a few of these are overblown(damage to government property and hooliganism for the same crime of taking down the medical bay smoking signs, and the damage charge was the full 30 minutes, then neglect of duty for smoking in the medbay being ten minutes.) Anyway, so I'm in the medbay for 45 minutes, then we get the "unscheduled dropship departure" message. At about 40 minutes on the timer, an MP comes in and opens the door to the cell I'm in. Then, the CMP comes about, tazes my character, and puts them in for 60 minutes. Apparently, an MP opening my door counts as prison break, and the CMP indicated that they would be put into isolation, AKA permanently confinement, once the situation was over with.

Now, I ended up just getting slain horribly whilst trapped in the brig by Aliens, so I didn't have to sit through a whole round just because an MP opened my door. But does that seem like a reasonable application of the prison break charge? If another prisoner got out and broke you out, or another squad, or anyone that wasn't authorized within the brig, you would know that they were breaking the law. But I had no idea that the MP was disobeying orders to let my character out, seeing as I had no access to the communications or even lack thereof that had taken place. And it wasn't anyone who doesn't have law powers, like an SO or CO who has access to the Brig, but an MP himself, who is normally allowed to arbitrate on who gets in for what charges, so it's not like a dispute over someone that it's very clear whether they're breaking procedure or not.

I notice that with OOC rules, there's a clause on how rules are intended, but with marine laws, it seems to revolve around lawyering and interpretation more often than not(see sugar + iron on combination medication), and having the possibility of being given permanent confinement over situations where one of the parties really has no control over what happens can really make the situation disruptive and arbitrary at times. Just like how there's a rule as intended thing for OOC rules, is Marine Law really intended to give someone who had no idea they were part of a prison break permanent confinement?

[taketheshot56]

MPs should NEVER be releasing a prisoner unless its code delta (SD Active) and with the CMPs consent. If you leave with said MP you are partaking in jailbreak unless the MP is forcing you to go.

[Nickvr628]

Context should matter. If the dropship is hijacked and the crew know they are being boarded, it should be fine for a hoolaginizing marine to be released to help fight.

[waswar]

MPs should NEVER be releasing a prisoner unless its code delta (SD Active) and with the CMPs consent. If you leave with said MP you are partaking in jailbreak unless the MP is forcing you to go.

We aren't able to know what they're doing considering the way it was gone about. My character had stepped into the doorway of their cell before the CMP came charging to taze my character, and I had no clue that what the MP was doing was unauthorized/insubordination on his part, due to lack of radio communication to find out if it is, indeed, unauthorized. It's not like I was assaulting the CMP, my character was in the doorway and the CMP did not state anything until after the ship was crashed, implying that there would be permanent confinement. For all I would have known, they were placing the prisoners in a different part of the brig considering the circumstances.

I will agree that it's the MP's fault if they let the prisoner out without authorization from the CMP, but prisoners don't know if the CMP is against authorizing it or not due to lack of witnessing the communications between them. This is essentially punishing one party due to what the other has done, rather completely against any reasonable will from their part.

[Casany]

I feel like an MP should released marines jailed for petty reasons when the dropship is crashing towards the Almayer filled with ayys. I dunno, just seems like something people should do so that they aren't ending someones round by keeping them defenseless in a cell.

[Sulaboy]

I feel like an MP should released marines jailed for petty reasons when the dropship is crashing towards the Almayer filled with ayys. I dunno, just seems like something people should do so that they aren't ending someones round by keeping them defenseless in a cell.

Mps should release petty crime prisoners and part of their duties is to protect any prisoners in the brig.

Also for the thread, ahelp it if you think there is a problem, like with the jailbreak incident

[solidfury7]

MPs should NEVER be releasing a prisoner unless its code delta (SD Active) and with the CMPs consent. If you leave with said MP you are partaking in jailbreak unless the MP is forcing you to go.

You may release people during red alert if hostiles are numerous on the vessel, if I recall.

Personally it depends on the crime and attitude of the person to see if I view them as a threat during that emergency.

[Loco52]

You may release people during red alert if hostiles are numerous on the vessel, if I recall.

Personally it depends on the crime and attitude of the person to see if I view them as a threat during that emergency.

They HAVE to be released and secured when there is an immediate threat to the station. It's a must.

[Solarmare]

It's not stated anywhere that it's a must, only that you can if you like. There's no need placed on the mps to release prisoners, just to keep them protected in the brig during red alert.

[ThePiachu]

Oh man, I was an MP during that round, and that CMP was something.

Charlie Leader left a motion sensor out for someone else to take. Well, that's unsecure equipment, put him in the brig before briefing. PO got into a fistfight to defend himself? Assault and Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer, brig him! Someone set the timer on that PO for 10 minutes? All MPs to the Brig for stern talking. Someone put up a "Do Not Smoke" Sign in the Brig? Damage to Government Property, take them in. Oh, a researcher isn't in medbay or is smoking? Neglect of duty!

[RaidenFTW]

Well, it looks like MP's fault to me, simply he has to report everything he do. If the MP released the prisoner without telling anyone, it will cause misunderstanding. You should've ahelp'ed the situation to solve it.

[Karmac]

Marine Law states that during red alert MP's are to gather in the brig to protect any prisoners you may have, they are not allowed out, under Delta alert though, you are given permission to release the prisoners if you deem it necessary and believe they won't be harmful to other humans. There is no circumstance in which you are forced to let prisoners go, but there is circumstance for keeping them brigged.

[Mann handle]

Got to admit. Slapping a jailbreak charge on the person who didn't break out but had an MP open the door is retarded. It's not even a jail break at that point but an MP breaking a rule (without the consent of the CMP), but to slap a punishment on both when only one person was in on it and the same person is the only one to blame sounds equally dumb as the MP who opened the door. Yet the best way to have sorted this one was to Ahelp it.

But then we can guess EXACTLY who the CMP was this round and frankly he is a good reason as to why I think marine law might need a rewrite in some areas for more clarification and less lawyery bullshit that only the MPs have access to. That's right, Marine law in its somewhat poorly written state allows for a 'cunning' (see unscrupulous) MP to ram as many charges on someone using all manners of spin. While the person arrested only has the right of an appeal that most MP forces don't actually BOTHER to follow up on, no re-investigations, no logs on the consoles half the time, it's almost absurd.

I mean a no smoking sign is damage to government property? That is some class A bullshit right there yet marine law and current staff attitude along with the player base (see players high up in the popularity contest) allow this to happen and generally shut down any discussion about it. That would, in my eyes, class as hooliganism seeing as it's somewhat disruptive behavior that doesn't affect the hull of the ship.

Unsecure equipment is in the prep areas? better waltz up, tell them to get on the ground and arrest them without even doing the cordial thing like asking someone to NOT do something like that and just getting them to amend the mistake, I've seen a few people do that before the punishment rewrite and after. Still seeing MPs just drag SLs off with little more than a prod with a baton. I will admit the bias I have against this law seeps through me constantly to the point where my squad has their flamers handed to req most of the time. Heck let's add to that a little with the punishment terms. Equipment Confiscation + Warning for minimum or 15 Minutes as the maximum, I normally see the latter one handed out almost instantly all the time.

Also self defense is not covered in the law meaning if a pilot gets attacked, which happens quite often, if he tries to defend himself both the attacker and the pilot can fall foul of the law. Same with anyone to attempts self defense to save them serious injury. Most MPs do actually consider this but some just arrest both parties, brig them, then ignore any call for investigation.

In short, I'd argue that Marine law itself needs more clarifications to reduce the levels of lawyeriness to the MP's toolbox and have them focus on investigations rather than argumentations on what a line in the law book could actually mean.

[Karmac]

not gonna lie marine laws pretty much written to fuck with marines as much as possible

there's really no denying it

[solidfury7]

They HAVE to be released and secured when there is an immediate threat to the station. It's a must.

They really don't.

It takes 5 minutes to read marine law, dude.

[Nickvr628]

I think one way to also fix things is to heavily reduce the variance in brig times. Why have the law say 5-30 minutes when the MPs will always exploit to give max sentences.

Furthermore, removing BS unbecoming conduct would be another good change. If the intent of it is to reduce lowRP in officer roles, just let the admins bwoink them for it. There is no need to get brigged for an hour plus for a charge that should be much less.

The MPs always use marine law to screw the offending marine as much as possible. All of us have experienced it at some point, POs getting brigged for 300 minutes for bullshit reasons, SLs dragged off the DS before they deploy, so on so forth.

TLDR: Reduce MP freedom in brig time amounts by tightening the min and max sentences, remove dumb modifiers like unbecoming conduct, and prevent MPs from intentionally screwing over marines for stupid reasons.

[waswar]

I think one way to also fix things is to heavily reduce the variance in brig times. Why have the law say 5-30 minutes when the MPs will always exploit to give max sentences.

Furthermore, removing BS unbecoming conduct would be another good change. If the intent of it is to reduce lowRP in officer roles, just let the admins bwoink them for it. There is no need to get brigged for an hour plus for a charge that should be much less.

The MPs always use marine law to screw the offending marine as much as possible. All of us have experienced it at some point, POs getting brigged for 300 minutes for bullshit reasons, SLs dragged off the DS before they deploy, so on so forth.

TLDR: Reduce MP freedom in brig time amounts by tightening the min and max sentences, remove dumb modifiers like unbecoming conduct, and prevent MPs from intentionally screwing over marines for stupid reasons.

I think the ranges are really good as intended. Since you can only be brigged if if you can't put the place exactly in order, it makes sense if someone who takes down signs and throws them out gets a five minute penalty, and someone who blows a hole in a wall, which is friggen expensive and time consuming to replace, gets say, thirty minutes, if it were an accident, or unworthy of being considered sabatage.

But yeah, some MP's like to give maximal sentences over rather silly things, especially when they stack with hooliganism, which is explicitly stated to be trivial.

So taking down the signs both classifies as Behavior that is generally disruptive to the ship and crew that classifies as low level shenanigans not deserving of more severe punishment, as well as the maximal sentence for damage to government property. Which is it? Is it the most egregious form of damaging government property, or is it a minor issue not befitting a greater charge?

[Loco52]

They really don't.

It takes 5 minutes to read marine law, dude.

This jewel in marine law:

Note: a small force of enemies on board is not "over-run by a large hostile force". You should ensure the prisoners are kept safe and alive as long as they are in your custody, and release them only if this becomes impossible to perform due to a large enemy force.

What does this mean? This means when the station is OVER-RUN BY A LARGE HOSTILE FORCE you either

a) Keep the prisoners safe by bringing a huge bulk of people enough to deter the over-run or resist it to protect the prisoners or
b) Release them and take them to a safe zone meanwhile.

It does take 5 mins to read marine law.

[Skimmy2]

This jewel in marine law:

Note: a small force of enemies on board is not "over-run by a large hostile force". You should ensure the prisoners are kept safe and alive as long as they are in your custody, and release them only if this becomes impossible to perform due to a large enemy force.

What does this mean? This means when the station is OVER-RUN BY A LARGE HOSTILE FORCE you either

a) Keep the prisoners safe by bringing a huge bulk of people enough to deter the over-run or resist it to protect the prisoners or
b) Release them and take them to a safe zone meanwhile.

It does take 5 mins to read marine law.

That still doesint mean that they Must release the Prisoners, they can only release them if incapable of ensuring their safety in the Brig. "Large Hostile Force" doesint mean as soon as the crash course announcement is called.

[Loco52]

That still doesint mean that they Must release the Prisoners, they can only release them if incapable of ensuring their safety in the Brig. "Large Hostile Force" doesint mean as soon as the crash course announcement is called.

When ARES tells you there are 35 aliens coming up the station perhaps there's ground to assume it. I was once PMed, actually, to drag a prisoner out of a cell in this same situation.

[Retrokinesis]

I feel like the two biggest problems with marine law are leeway in the wrong direction and ambiguity.

Having minimum and maximum punishments for each crime with no sentencing guidelines beyond "it's up to the arresting MP" is a problem. Hell, it's only recommended that you "make the severity of the punishment meet the crime" and "minimize excessive punishments". The first offense warning for a minor weapons violation is the sole instance of requiring a lesser sentence. MPs have incredibly broad discretion that is answerable only to the CMP and staff, but that discretion really only applies to fucking with people as hard as possible: an MP applying the maximum sentence to every single offense forever, from 15 minutes for improper uniform to 30 minutes and immediate demotion for insubordination, is acting fully within the law but one who says "I actually don't care about the CMO authorizing iron/sugar pills for the medics" is breaking marine law as an MP, which means you're breaking server rules and risking a jobban. By that logic it's actually safer for an MP to be as harsh as possible at all times so no one can possibly accuse them of being negligent in enforcing the law.

The other problem is how ambiguous certain areas of marine law are. Not all of them by any means; procedures for things like searches and arrests are extremely specific. But the word "civilian" appears exactly once and drunk on duty versus drunk and disorderly is the only case where it's perfectly clear that one law only applies to military personnel and the other only applies to civilians. The rest is, again, at the sole discretion of the MPs and CMP. Is a doctor insulting a staff officer disrespect to a superior? The doctor is clearly a civilian and their chain of command is clearly MD -> CMO -> aCO, which the lieutenant isn't part of, but I've seen SOs demand they be arrested regardless. Is there a line between hooliganism and disorderly conduct with one being a more severe version of the other, or can you be hit with both for the same crime if the MP feels like it? What is an "acceptable standard" for purposes of neglect of duty?

There's also the fact that improper application of laws by MPs or the CMP is often resolved by staff as an OOC issue, which creates no IC standard for cases like "this has been previously established as something you can't do" or "technically there's nothing saying you can't do this but you'll probably get bwoinked for it". I feel like a compilation thread for law-related staff rulings could be really helpful for this last part.

[waswar]

Having minimum and maximum punishments for each crime with no sentencing guidelines beyond "it's up to the arresting MP" is a problem. Hell, it's only recommended that you "make the severity of the punishment meet the crime" and "minimize excessive punishments". The first offense warning for a minor weapons violation is the sole instance of requiring a lesser sentence. MPs have incredibly broad discretion that is answerable only to the CMP and staff, but that discretion really only applies to fucking with people as hard as possible: an MP applying the maximum sentence to every single offense forever, from 15 minutes for improper uniform to 30 minutes and immediate demotion for insubordination, is acting fully within the law but one who says "I actually don't care about the CMO authorizing iron/sugar pills for the medics" is breaking marine law as an MP, which means you're breaking server rules and risking a jobban. By that logic it's actually safer for an MP to be as harsh as possible at all times so no one can possibly accuse them of being negligent in enforcing the law.

The iron-sugar thing is very variable, when I messaged an administrator suggesting a change in the wording an an example regarding the “combination medication”, specifically with the situation with Awan Oostveen, I was told to send it to Apophis since he “has final say on Marine Law”, which basically means that, in spite of various CMP’s and administrators saying Iron-sugar falls under the clause, I’m not sure we even have the final say on it without Apophis clarifying it.

That’s the part that makes it all messed up with Marine Law, you can have multiple interpretations with different standards about different things, where Imidazoline-Alkysine is clearly not allowed because they’re both clearly medications, only to get into an argument over whether iron and sugar qualify as medication, rather than bases or ingredients or anything really, and throws into question why things like EAT Bars, which are nutrients wrapped in aluminum, are legal but the same thing in pill form is not.

But then people can take it even further. There was a CMO that refused to make very many medications if their pill form wasn’t their default form, so they wouldn’t make dermalime, tricordrazine, dexalin plus, etcetera because he didn’t want to authorize them. It got a bit crazy.

When I’m an MP, I always check the secure pill storage and ask the CMO to write off anything ASAP and arrest them later if they don’t, but always try to let them know and tell them that other MP’s can and will arrest them with a friendly warning the first time around.

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

I never play MP, and my only experience interacting with MPs is when I play a shitler MT, so I'm not really well-versed with Marine Law, but I think it would benefit from introducing a common law style of precedence. While certain violations are plainly obvious, such as murder, there also seem to be a lot of unofficial grey rules, for example, the iron-sugar pills, flamethrowers in general prep, or marine law application to CLs/civilians. The only way you would know what to enforce is if you were heavily involved in the meta on the forums and Discord and knew how the admins ruled upon your issue.

As I see it, some solutions to this problem would either be giving extra interpretive latitude to CMP, rewriting Marine Law, or adding a wiki page with case rulings. I think the first solution isn't really practical because you wouldn't know if you were on the right or wrong side of the law until you were in cuffs, plus it gives too much authority to CMP. The second solution would also add more problems than it fixed and I think Marine Law is already pretty tight barring a little roughness around the edges.

It should go without saying I think the third solution fixes the most problems while minimizing the number of concerns. It would publicly expand upon specific, edge cases and give precedence for future cases. Take for example, iron-sugar pills: I would not know what to classify them as unless I read the player report on the forums, and would potentially be breaking the server rules if I were not enforcing the law as proscribed. I could see this issue being averted if we had a wiki page linked on the Marine Law page that gave rulings for these kinds of scenarios so that I wasn't scanning buried forum posts for staff interpretations. It might not fix all of Marine Law's problems, but at least I would know where the law sat on certain issues. It would also give a channel for people to ask about cases and have them potentially answered. This wouldn't solve the underlying problems with Marine Law, but that's a much larger fish to fry.

[solidfury7]

This jewel in marine law:

Note: a small force of enemies on board is not "over-run by a large hostile force". You should ensure the prisoners are kept safe and alive as long as they are in your custody, and release them only if this becomes impossible to perform due to a large enemy force.

What does this mean? This means when the station is OVER-RUN BY A LARGE HOSTILE FORCE you either

a) Keep the prisoners safe by bringing a huge bulk of people enough to deter the over-run or resist it to protect the prisoners or
b) Release them and take them to a safe zone meanwhile.

It does take 5 mins to read marine law.

You've just proven your reading comprehension is lacking,


"In the event of a Delta Alert (activation of self destruct) any prisoners may be released if the MPs believe that they will not be a threat to the crew. A normal Red Alert, is not sufficient reason for a release unless the ship is being over-run by a large hostile force. "

So no, you don't HAVE to release them as you've previously stated.

[adrenalinetooth]

That’s the part that makes it all messed up with Marine Law, you can have multiple interpretations with different standards about different things, where Imidazoline-Alkysine is clearly not allowed because they’re both clearly medications, only to get into an argument over whether iron and sugar qualify as medication, rather than bases or ingredients or anything really, and throws into question why things like EAT Bars, which are nutrients wrapped in aluminum, are legal but the same thing in pill form is not.

Damn. I can't think of a better comparison to show why the whole sugar-iron pill thing is bullshit other than this, well said.