Update Discussion Thread (August 2018)

[Xperia15]

Sounds good

I just still don’t know why people keep complaining about a buckshot oneshot when you have to be literally in CQC range to get it off.

I’ve literally said this like four times, it isn’t the weapon that’s OP, it’s the skill on the xeno side that is lacking. If you don’t see a person holding a shotgun, right next to you, or you see them but don’t react that’s on you. Like I said xenos have so many tools to stop this but apparently they don’t like using them in this case.

TLDR; Shotguns aren’t OP, xenos just aren’t competent.

Yes but xenos are a melee damager so they HAVE to be in CQC range to attack. Most of the times marines with shotguns will rush you to get that PB shot on you. There's nothing to defend yourself from that else than running.
T3s get were getting critted way too easily by marines rushing to them and PB them.
It's not fair that a weapon can insta critical or kill you just by a single click. It removes so much fun from xenos, getting one shot killed just sucks .

Shotguns should be support weapons, not main combat weapons, so they shouldn't be overpowered. The pulse is what needs a buff to get a comeback.

[Gnorse]

again, the "one-shot" arguements can easily be countered by bringing up their xeno counterparts, so I'm not going to get into that.

Again, If a competent marine manages to kill a bad T3, that really isn't a problem.
As much as I hate saying it, "get good" is the only answer here. We need to stop hugboxing xenos and letting them get away with making mistakes and maybe their skill's going to actually increase.
Ask any self-respecting xeno main and he'll tell you that playing xeno is a walk in the park.

[WinterClould]

I'm worried about giving marines buffs only if they're standing still spooky. That's not going to help the people on the frontlines where moving and shooting is manditory, and will probably only help to encourage the turtle meta of marines. Don't we want marine pushes not marines camping in their FOB?

[spookydonut]

I'm talking about like, standing still and shooting you hit 3/3 and running and firing you hit 2/3

[Casany]

Yes but xenos are a melee damager so they HAVE to be in CQC range to attack. Most of the times marines with shotguns will rush you to get that PB shot on you. There's nothing to defend yourself from that else than running.
T3s get were getting critted way too easily by marines rushing to them and PB them.
It's not fair that a weapon can insta critical or kill you just by a single click. It removes so much fun from xenos, getting one shot killed just sucks .

Shotguns should be support weapons, not main combat weapons, so they shouldn't be overpowered. The pulse is what needs a buff to get a comeback.

Oh so xenos have no stuns now?

Tackles, spit, pounce, speed, none of that matters? Xenos are just powerless babies. Ravagers? Nah they can't charge what even IS that. Crushers? Nah they don't have the highest tackle chance and stun timer, naaaaaw. Boilers? What even IS acid spray!? Queens? Weakest in the bunch

Literally, get good. Actually this. Like, for real if you can't find a way to get an armorless marine with a shotgun in CQC range down, you aren't a good player simple as that.

[Nickvr628]

About the suggestion to remove the T2 Cap for xenos.

So now instead of having a bunch of defenders and some warriors, we will have ALL warriors.

I don’t see how that will go wrong.

[Dauntasa]

On an unrelated note, I HaB a SuGgEsTiOn! what would you people think if they removed the T2 slots cap, but only T2, meaning all T1s can become T2 if they want, its a healthy way of buffing xenos instead of nerfing marines and it also gives xeno side more freedom to choose a caste since one of the most frustrating things when playing xeno side is being stuck as a T1.

T1s would essentially no longer exist. You'd have one poor shmuck stuck as a Drone to be the Backup queen, and then 15 lurkers, 15 warriors and 10 spitters.

[Dauntasa]

Crushers? Nah they don't have the highest tackle chance and stun timer, naaaaaw.

to be fair the crusher tackle chance is actually garbage now

[digitalattack]

T1s would essentially no longer exist. You'd have one poor shmuck stuck as a Drone to be the Backup queen, and then 15 lurkers, 15 warriors and 10 spitters.

Drones, defenders and runners are about the only ones with a possiblity of existing I would say, spitters are a straight up upgrade, while runners and defenders at least offer something different from their upgraded versions.

Defenders having a higher tankness and more defensive utility and runners having more mobility([?] not sure anymore after patch) and faster recovery from leap.

[Simo94]

Drones, defenders and runners are about the only ones with a possiblity of existing I would say, spitters are a straight up upgrade, while runners and defenders at least offer something different from their upgraded versions.

Defenders having a higher tankness and more defensive utility and runners having more mobility([?] not sure anymore after patch) and faster recovery from leap.

sentinel is faster than spitter and generally better at hit and run tactics

[zoboomafoo]

I like that there are a lot more ancient drones around now since their upgrade timer was reduced. Helps out with weeding and building a lot, and I'm sure the drone players appreciate the QOL improvement of more plasma and faster regen.

[kamenkuro]

It's not fair that a weapon can insta critical or kill you just by a single click. It removes so much fun from xenos, getting one shot killed just sucks .

I want you to argue that xenos shouldn't be able to aim for body parts then. It's not fun when you get a hand removed or get decapped. Marines have it far worse than xenos. Xenos being punished for fuck ups is good. As of right now they have so many outs. No debilitating damage, health regens easily, all kinds of flavors of stuns. I can't count how many times I've seen xenos just lunge away to run off and heal. Marines can't do that and if a xeno is too stupid to disengage when they have all these safety nets then it's on them that they died. Do you want to nerf mines then? They easily set up kills too.

[Xperia15]

I want you to argue that xenos shouldn't be able to aim for body parts then. It's not fun when you get a hand removed or get decapped. Marines have it far worse than xenos. Xenos being punished for fuck ups is good. As of right now they have so many outs. No debilitating damage, health regens easily, all kinds of flavors of stuns. I can't count how many times I've seen xenos just lunge away to run off and heal. Marines can't do that and if a xeno is too stupid to disengage when they have all these safety nets then it's on them that they died. Do you want to nerf mines then? They easily set up kills too.

I'm actually in favor of removing targeting ability for xenos. I like the idea of them just ravaging humans wherever they can land hits, instead of only groin attacks, for example.

Well marines have the ability to get revived. And right now with body dragging removed, it will happen more than ever.
Xenos don't really get second chances when they fuck up, marines do, with the ability to get revived and get back in the game with their original character. Xenos have to start all over again.

[Surrealistik]

Non ap ammo rifle burst does more damage than pre change buckshot with more armor penetration but the bullet scatter makes it harder to hit things even at close range compared to buckshot.
We might look at reducing/removing scatter from rifle, upping accuracy and decreasing damage, like buff it to the point of almost always hitting but the damage requiring multiple rifles to be effective at range, with shotguns remaining the king of short range combat.
I mean it doesn't take a genius to see why scatter was added to rifles with their potential for huge amounts of damage.
Single shots should never scatter and things like stocks and vert grips should make a burst not scatter at all if you're standing still, with the obvious drawbacks those attachments have.
Tldr; we're probably going to have to buff the rifle more and might rebuff buckshot a bit but it's going to be small tweaks over time.

I do want to thank everyone for their feedback on the changes as it has helped a lot to see things we've missed and areas we haven't looked at in terms of weapons balance.

Non-AP rifle ammo has no armour pen last I checked, and buckshot has negative.

Better to give the Rifle basic ammo minor AP so it's better vs harder targets without being significantly deadlier vs softer ones it already does well against, and rebuff the shotgun. Scatter isn't really the problem so much as the lack of armour pen, and the rifle's complete inability to deal with heavily armoured Xenos regardless of range without AP rounds.

Reducing Rifle falloff may also help a bit.

[kamenkuro]

I'm actually in favor of removing targeting ability for xenos. I like the idea of them just ravaging humans wherever they can land hits, instead of only groin attacks, for example.

Well marines have the ability to get revived. And right now with body dragging removed, it will happen more than ever.
Xenos don't really get second chances when they fuck up, marines do, with the ability to get revived and get back in the game with their original character. Xenos have to start all over again.

Do you play a marine at all? Getting removed because of damage is just as bad. It's balanced out that way. Marines can never play a marine again once they die. Revives are to keep marine numbers stable and let marine players keep playing. Xeno players just have to wait til a new one spawns. Marines can lose vital equipment. Spec weapons, insulated gloves, etc. Xenos just have to wait for their timer. Xenos have it so much easier with so much more freedom. If this was still OG CM with cloning then you might have an argument, but the defib timer, decaps, and husking makes your point moot.

[Casany]

Xenos don't really get second chances when they fuck up

They have a TON of second chances. Literally, if their capture game is on point there can be upwards of 20~ larva open to be used.

[sw4gbag]

I'm actually in favor of removing targeting ability for xenos. I like the idea of them just ravaging humans wherever they can land hits, instead of only groin attacks, for example.

Well marines have the ability to get revived. And right now with body dragging removed, it will happen more than ever.
Xenos don't really get second chances when they fuck up, marines do, with the ability to get revived and get back in the game with their original character. Xenos have to start all over again.

Don't forget about attrition and equipment loss caused by fuck ups and xenos. A T1 xeno can easily fuck up a marine enough to be sent to surgery, usually this is a simple fracture or IB. But when there's multiple xenos targetting small amounts of marines, this stacks up. I'd say when 50% of xenos are critted, they are usually pulled back to weeds and heal in a few minutes, when a marine is fucked up by FF or T2's they usually have to go back up for 15+ minutes and wait on the DS down and or up. Most equipment lost can't be replaced by marines or cost too much to replace for requisition to bother.

[Xperia15]

What I'm trying to say is that the game as of right now, is balanced as it should. Xenos don't need any buffs, their good as of right now.

I'm trying to argue about not buffing shotguns and upping rifle use, that's what I'm trying to get done.

I'm in favor of buffing the rifle, whether it is improving accuracy, decreasing scatter or upping the damage. Anything so marines will use it more than shotguns.

What I am not in favor with is buffing up the shotgun again. What I personally don't want to see again is hordes of PFC with shotguns and no rifles.

And yes I play Marine sometimes, but I much more as xenos. Just because I hate FF.

[Jonesome]

You know what to do to make Pulse Rifle a decent weapon? Make xenos slow down after getting hit.

This. It’s so frustrating to empty mag after mag just to see them dance away like they’re being hit by nerf guns.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

I'm actually in favor of removing targeting ability for xenos. I like the idea of them just ravaging humans wherever they can land hits, instead of only groin attacks, for example.

I agree, with xenoes being the murder machines they are quoted as meant to being, they shouldnt really care for where they are slashing, they just want to slash, yeah?

The only reason to keep them allowing to target a specific limb or area is to allow them to utilize a certain degree of intelligence, as in "Why mother! I notice when i slash at their head, they are immediately dead! Inform the hive!"

Queen responds "Everyone target the heads of the hosts! We need no more captures, KILL EVERYTHING!"

Are they meant to be intelligent that much? Thats debatable.

"You are fairly intelligent and capable of easily learning from the events during the infestation of the colony, yet you show no compassion or empathy. Your job will only be done when the Hive reigns over all that you can reach. "

I still think its a good idea and should be atleast considered as a idea by the coders.

[Jonesome]

Maybe remove targeting of hands only? It seems kind of power-gamey to consistently remove a limb they know a marine can't wield a weapon without. Or at least allow marines to reload one-handed so they can still use it.

[Xperia15]

Maybe remove targeting of hands only? It seems kind of power-gamey to consistently remove a limb they know a marine can't wield a weapon without. Or at least allow marines to reload one-handed so they can still use it.

Marines can actually load with one hand, it's called tactical reloading. Click and drag a M41A ammo to your weapon and you will perform a one handed tactical reload.
It also works for the M39 and the M4A3 pistol.
Doesn't work for shotguns though

[Jonesome]

I think you need both hands to perform a tactical reload. I could be mistaken though.

[WinterClould]

Lore wise as far as I know, castes lower then the queen don't really talk or think. It's the queen who can see through their eyes and sends commands and they all just do.

Now that would suck ass gameplay wise so of course lower xenos can speak, but consider when you say something as a xeno you're just giving our version of the feedback the queen just naturally gets from her kiddos. Xenos don't have conversations or do much of anything other then work or drool everywhere while growling and hissing. So, ya know, stuff to keep in mind I guess?

[CABAL]

Really... The only two reasons for buffing Pulse Rifle is that Xeno mains don't like/can't handle PB from shotguns and it's not "Realistic" enough that half of the soldiers take Shotguns? Wielding delays and damage nerf wasn't enough? Still can't withstand it? So sad. Am I right, or terribly right?